B3, Classic Rock, 8 Faders. What would you do?

[dsetto]

B3 for Classic Rock, on a non-clonewheel board with 8 faders. How would you arrange it?

 

Delaware Dave & WesC have given me great advice on this. They told me *not* to lose the 9th drawbar (1'). (Which I was gonna try.) And Wes told me to combine the 7th & 8th.

7th: 1 3/5'. 3rd + 2 octaves from principal

8th: 1 1/3' . 5th + 2 octaves from principal

9th: 1'. 3 octaves from principal

[CEB]

Depends on your Setlist and whether or not you can store specific 9 bar presets presets regardless of your fader assignments.

 

Example, I find 888000888 a go to registration but 888000088 is important as well as 888000008. But if you are doing something like Little Feat's Spanish Moon you got to have 800008888. But if you can call drawbar presets you can do whatever you want.

 

Are you using VB3? Go through your Setlist and use you mouse to pull all your registrations and write them down then figure what merge will work the best then use presets to fix your problem spots. What would give fits is If I was doing a bunch of ballades.

[J. Dan]

I'm not a native tone wheel guy and have limited experience on clonewheels. As Ed suggests, even though my Kronos has 9 sliders for drawbars, I still regularly start with some saved configuration and adjust from there as the song requires. Purist B3 guys are rolling their eyes right now, understandably so. But it seems to me most of the time the first drawbar is pull d and if it's not, you could play up an octave with a different registration and get the same sound. Am I wrong? This is assuming you could maybe do an octave shift (the dreaded transpose)

[dsetto]

Alright. I'll stop being coy.

 

Goal: ballsy B3 for early-to-mid 70's bluesy Southern classic rock.

Gear:

- XF7. (Don't make me spell that out anymore. That's what it's gonna be now.)

XF7 effects off.

- Easy Sounds' Organ Session. Excellent in my intro to it.

- Moogerfooger Delay pedal for early chain Drive grit, Chorus, and sometimes short "Spring Verb" tail

- Neo Instruments' Ventilator 2. (Another superb Keyboard Corner buy!). For Leslie, including Leslie drive.

(I'm not using midi or a VI.)

 

I'm gonna use a beefy bass amp & gtr amp to get stereo-like for my upcoming outdoor gig.

 

--

I am checking out an Easy Sounds "Organ Session" setup that's pretty great.

Faders 1-4 = Drawbars 1-4

Then it skips drawbar 5, the 12th (2 2/3')

Fader 5 = Drawbar 6, the 15th (2')

In the next 3 faders I get:

Percussion 2 2/3, click, and key-off click.

 

What I don't get:

The top 3 "brilliance" drawbars, nor a sustained Drawbar 5.

 

What I get:

- Percussion that works kinda right in that it doesn't sound if another key is pressed.

- the key on and off clicks add great realism.

---

 

For this upcoming show, I wamt to quickly settle on one approach, so I can get past "thinking" stage, and deeper into the music.

 

I thought I was going to want fader control of 8 drawbars, but I like this layout that's ready to go.

I may be able to tap into my programming brain, to squeeze a little more out of this rig.

 

If I were to do that I could have:

8 elements ready to fire simultaneously, with 8 faders to control volume, and 8 buttons to turn them off.

Deeper yet: I have these two assignable function buttons. But, I'm not sure if or how those will be useful.

 

--

Listen, I overthink it. It's how I am. I know it. This forum has deep knowledge on these things. And so, curious to what you guys think are the 8 most important sounds, to have for the vibe I mentioned.

 

I get it's subjective.

 

-- the obvious questionable ones are:

Toss click on note off, and also toss click, to get extra "brilliance" dissonance drawbars in.

 

I know I'm keeping the loud percussion!

 

And one day, I'll be fortunate to have a clone wheel.

 

[mate stubb]

 

Bluesy southern classic rock pretty much requires all the Hammond facilities. Ability to pull drawbars, CV, good leslie.

 

You will use percussion less than the jazz guys will, and probably don't absolutely require good adjustable key click.

 

Leslie you have covered. You need the ability to pull the sizzle drawbars.

[CEB]

Yeah. What Moe says. If you need to sacrifice an individual drawbar control I would look to the bottom three. As much a proponent I am to shoving in the 16' for southern rock you could get away with leaving it on 8. Especially if the Hammond is serving as rhythm guitar. Or tying 16 in together with the the 5 1/3 .... Maybe.

 

Heck I don't know .... I use them all. Often in rock you stress the 5 1/3.

[AnotherScott]

In reading the replies, I think some people may not be clear on all the limitations of your Motif approach. i.e.

 

...You have only 8 elements TOTAL to work with. So it's not a matter of going from 9 to 8 (losing "just" one drawbar control), but rather going from 12 to 8 (since 2nd percussion, 3rd percussion, and key click on and off, are also their own elements, from which you can only choose a total of 8)

 

...and it's not a matter of choosing the 8 from which you can have variable control while the others remain fixed... it's 8 elements period. That is, you can't say "I don't need to vary the two key clicks, they can stay fixed, I don't need faders for those" -- If you use up 8 elements with other things, you can't have the two key clicks regardless of whether or not you care about assigning them to a fader.

 

The countering consideration is that you could possibly have two (or more) "drawbars" count as a single element IF there is a waveform available that includes the combination of those two drawbars that you're looking for, and that could help you here, if you're willing to not be able to trigger of raise/lower the level of one without the other(s).

 

Another factor to consider is that, if you're triggering 9 elements with each key press, polyphony will go awfully quickly (128 becomes as little as 14). Something to be aware of if especially you're thinking about splits and layers.

 

As has been discussed in the past, combining sampled waveforms tends to create phasing issues, but while it may not give you the "right" sound and will make a purist wince, not everyone will be so bothered by that for live gigging.

 

 

 

 

[Bobadohshe]

As much a proponent I am to shoving in the 16' for southern rock you could get away with leaving it on 8.

 

You can also leave it out and just EQ out some lows. Crude but effective in a band situation

[Threadslayer]

... If you need to sacrifice an individual drawbar control I would look to the bottom three. As much a proponent I am to shoving in the 16' for southern rock you could get away with leaving it on 8.

Way to think out of the box there CEB. You're absolutely right. In all my years behind a Hammond, I almost never pushed in the 16'. For 99% + of the registrations I used, It might as well have been glued on 8.

[AnotherScott]

... If you need to sacrifice an individual drawbar control I would look to the bottom three. As much a proponent I am to shoving in the 16' for southern rock you could get away with leaving it on 8.

Way to think out of the box there CEB. You're absolutely right. In all my years behind a Hammond, I almost never pushed in the 16'. For 99% + of the registrations I used, It might as well have been glued on 8.

...I think this gets back to what I was saying about understanding the limitations of the Motif based system the OP is talking about. You can't say "forget assigning a fader to 16', just set it for max and forget about needing a level control for it." In this system, if it's not assigned to a fader, it is off (permanently at 0, if you will), you can't set it to be permanently at 8. That is, if it's not one of the 8 elements you select for fader control, it is simply not available. The limitation here is not really that there are only 8 faders, but rather that there are only 8 tones that can be sounded at once. The fact that there are only 8 faders is tangential. The problem isn't that you're missing a 9th (or 10th, 11th, 12th) fader, but that you're missing the ability to generate any more than 8 components of a sound. The exception is if there are single samples that, themselves, contain more than one of those components. The Organ Session sample set does let you do that to some extent. They have a waveform that combines the first three drawbars, so then those three drawbars would count as only one of the 8 elements, giving you one fader that can simultaneously function as 16' 8' 5 1/3' and allowing you to select which additional components of an organ sound you'd like to use for the other 7 elements (and their respective faders), those components being your choice of other drawbars, percussion sounds, key clicks.

[CEB]

What about using Song Mix Mode as a workaround? I've used Song Mode as a way to squeeze more 'zones' out of a S90.

 

It won't fix polyphony issues and if you start doing smears and glissandos Yamaha processors don't always like that. Could cause more problems than fixes.

[Threadslayer]

I had several layered organ patches (performances I think) on my S90 - which only had four faders - and I was able to get a rough facsimile of drawbar control by assigning each layer to a fader and dialing in a reasonable approximation of Power, Sizzle, and Spice. Not a true Hammond emulation obviously, but better than nothing.

[dsetto]

Great points, guys.

 

I'll be trying out the following setups.

 

Setup 1. 16',8' glued, the remaining discrete.

This gives me the 7th & 8th both present. I like going from having both of them fully "pushed in" to instantly, fully "pulled out". I like having the 1', for chords when I go lower.

 

Setup 2. all discrete, but without either the 7th drawbar (1 3/5') or the 8th drawbar (1 1/3').

I am able to have a screen loaded up that allows me to easily swap out 1 3/5' for 1 1/3', and vice versa. As they are waveforms next to each other, I can do that live, quickly, and pretty mindlessly.

 

I think I will pick between one setup or the other. It's too hard for me to shift from transposing faders 2-8 to either being:

- drawbars 3-9 (in Setup 1)

- drawbars 2-9, with fader 7 being either drawbar 7 or drawbar 8 (Setup 2)

 

 

For southern rock, as a desert island online forum question, if forced to not have the 7th or the 8th drawbar, which finger do you choose?

 

--

Scott, that's right. I've got 8 elements (sounds) at my disposal, as I want the most fader-per-sound control. This means Voice Mode.

 

The context is live band, with 1-2 guitarists. (Singer does 2nd gtr.)

 

I began this thread because I wanted to get to a good bet setup quickly, for this upcoming gig. I prefer to come up with as few "setups" or presets as possible, so that I can treat it as much like a live limited B3 as possible, rather than rely on presets, and not have a clue what the faders are for. I plan to label the faders to help me remember. While I can have another setup or two, I'd rather just get to defining my 8 faders what they are, and working with that. 3 legged dog type thing. (By setup I mean my preset, which means what I'm assigning for each of the 8 elements/faders.)

 

Beeeeg mistake. 1' is a very important harmonic for classic rock work. If you're short a fader, you'd be better off IMO combining the 7th and 8th into one combination drawbar.

Easy Sounds' "Organ Session" doesn't have a combined 1 3/5', 1 1/3' (7th & 8th drawbar). I would like that.

It does have a 16', 8' combined. I could have EQ loaded up that specifically cuts the low or the high of a glued 16',8' element/waveform.

 

While, there was a meaty "real" feeling of having a dedicated note-on click & note-off click - allowing me to turn them up loud enough to be present, and not overbearing. But, as the discrete drawbar waveforms have a click baked in, I'll lose the dedicated note-on & note-off clicks to have more discrete drawbar control.

 

It was cool to have a decent percussion emulation, but I'll reserve that for a different day, different sound.

 

--

Without a doubt, 8 faders of one of those combos above, plus the neo vent's leslie & leslie drive; plus moogerfooger early-chain drive, chorus (vibrato-ish), and spring reverb-esque -- i've got plenty of decent B3 southern rock sound shaping control ready. Now, time to get deeper into translating what I hear. Um, chops. Keyboard chops.

 

Thanks!

[eric]

Wouldn't it be easier to just add a clonewheel like a Mojo, Hammond, Nord?

[AnotherScott]

Easy Sounds' "Organ Session" ...does have a 16', 8' combined. I could have EQ loaded up that specifically cuts the low or the high of a glued 16',8' element/waveform.

Don't count on being able to do too much there with EQ. Sure, rolling off some low end will cut some of the 16' out of the bottom octave, but by the time you get to the second octave, anything that goes high enough to cut 16' there will also be cutting 8' on the octave underneath. (Actually, it may be even more limiting than this, depending on if/how they handled foldback in those samples.) Point being, the 16' and 8' are only an octave apart, so for at least 3 out of the 5 octaves of the keyboard, any EQ that has an effect on one of those footages will also have an effect on the other.

[CEB]

Wouldn't it be easier to just add a clonewheel like a Mojo, Hammond, Nord?

 

I assume there are budget constraints or our good man is just not wanting to buy any hardware for this gig ..... But if I was in this situation and could swing $350 and had more than $1500 in planned gross receipts from this Southern Rock gig. I would consider this.

 

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Used/In-Store-Used/Used-Ferrofish-B4000-Authentic-Sound-Box-2-Sound-Module.gc

 

PS- If by chance anyone is interested in a B4000+ I think Allan had one. I would ask him how he liked it. I would not pay $520 for a new one.

 

[dsetto]

I appreciate everyone's patience with my focus on detail. In the end, to me, this forum is about chilling, learning, & being with keyboard dudes & gals. On one hand, my info-based learning feels dumb to me. But then again, armed with the concepts I've gained here, at rehearsal last night I nailed the Evil Ways solo climax, fairly mindlessly. I started out more Ray Manzarek, 'cause that's more me - then at one point I said, wait for it, and then "pulled out" the top bars, pressed 'fast' on the vent, and landed two-handed on a bunch of keys.

 

I went with the first Organ Sessions patch that had all-discrete drawbars minus the 7th or the 8th drawbar. Nowhere in the rehearsal did I wonder which was missing, nor know what I was missing.

 

I'm keeping 16' & 8' on different faders because I like the ability to instantly lose girth & bring it back. I figure it's like the sub in a polyphonic synth land. "Pushing it in" is like engaging a high pass filter.

 

 

Eric, yeah, I see how a clone wheel is the tool for the full B3 ride. I'm not there yet.

 

Scott, I'm gonna listen out for the phasing thing. I remember reading about it as it relates to both Yamaha stock waveforms, and perhaps, static samples in general. As a steadfast tinkerer, I wonder if element-level mods can help me bypass that. Subtle static or dynamic pitch mods may do the trick.

 

But I digress into details. Thank you all, once again.

[Stokely]

I'm certainly no organist. The only tune I've needed a preset for on my pc3 (which obviously isn't a clonewheel) was Blue Collar Man...kind of a different sound to that organ and I used the mod wheel to dial both volume and crunch in between the turnaround signature part and the verses.

 

Now with my Vr-700 I could probably manage it in one preset since the controls are all there.

 

I've been riding 16' up a bit more lately, let's me play a bit more without being too overpowering in the mix. IEMs really help with that, I never could have heard the difference before while playing live.

[CEB]

Wouldn't it be easier to just add a clonewheel like a Mojo, Hammond, Nord?

 

I assume there are budget constraints or our good man is just not wanting to buy any hardware for this gig ..... But if I was in this situation and could swing $350 and had more than $1500 in planned gross receipts from this Southern Rock gig. I would consider this.

 

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Used/In-Store-Used/Used-Ferrofish-B4000-Authentic-Sound-Box-2-Sound-Module.gc

 

PS- If by chance anyone is interested in a B4000+ I think Allan had one. I would ask him how he liked it. I would not pay $520 for a new one.

 

They just dropped this thing another $50. Hmmmm.

[AnotherScott]

Scott, I'm gonna listen out for the phasing thing. I remember reading about it as it relates to both Yamaha stock waveforms, and perhaps, static samples in general. As a steadfast tinkerer, I wonder if element-level mods can help me bypass that. Subtle static or dynamic pitch mods may do the trick.

Some good info in the thread at

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2229421/Hammond_Samples

[David R]

I very rarely ever use the 2 2/3' drawbars - on my Novation SL that's the one I sacrificed in my mapping.

[dsetto]

Argh! Just venting here. (Receptive to more takes, of course.) -- This only comes up when I'm exploring the rig alone. With the band it's been irrelevant.

--

I'm definitive on keeping the first 5 (up to 2 2/3') discrete.

 

I dug the results in dropping the 6th db, 2'. And, then leaving the XF7 setup to quickly toggle the 6th fader from the 7th drawbar (1 3/5'), to the 6th. Crunchier to cleaner.

 

Then I teach my brain that the first 5 faders are the first 5 drawbars (ending in a 5th). And the last 3 faders are the last 3 drawbars. With the top being a searing lead/point; and the two left of that are for crunch.

 

I like discord.