Kronos piano ADSR, how to get to it

[AWkeys]

Hi all, I've Googled this, did a KC search, and I can't seem to find an answer.

 

Like most other hardware digital piano samples, I find the Korg Kronos pianos decay way too early. I can't seem to find where to play around with the amp envelope in the programs. Is it possible? Sorry, I am probably not as far down the rabbit hole as I should be with my Kronos. I use it to complement and control my Nord Stage. They work beautifully together. However, I'd really like to tweak the Kronos pianos if I could.

 

I would have posted this in the Kronos questions thread, but didn't want to hijack richforman's questions.

 

Thanks everyone!

[J. Dan]

You can't do it in the piano engine, period. No ADSR in that engine.

 

You can take a crappy piano sample in the HD1 engine and do it.

[RudyS]

I am no sampling expert, but I think the result would also not be that great; taking an existing sample and stretch its decay..

[Synthoid]

There is no amp envelope for the CX-3 engine either.

[AWkeys]

Thanks guys, that really sucks. I thought the Kronos was all about flexibility. I used to be able to do that on my friggin' JV-80, for crying out loud!

 

I'm not sure why you'd want an amp envelope on the CX-3 engine other than for tweakability's sake. Even though you might be facetious, I'd still say all of that should be available for every engine.

 

[Synthoid]

I'm not sure why you'd want an amp envelope on the CX-3 engine other than for tweakability's sake. Even though you might be facetious, I'd still say all of that should be available for every engine.

 

I like a slower attack and bit of release for some of my "church organs".

 

Perhaps it's heresy to have ADSR for a clonewheel, but let's be flexible here.

 

[ABECK]

You can't do that on a Roland SuperNatural piano either. You can on the PCM piano sounds, but like the Kronos, those aren't great.

[burningbusch]

The answer is very simple actually. The Kronos pianos are recorded at full duration of the note, in the bass this can be over one minute. There is no synthetic decay envelope to change. What you're hearing is the natural decay of that note on that piano at that velocity. Yes you could introduce a synthetic envelope to shorten the decay but you can't add sustain to a natural decaying note. The reason you can with the JV80 is that the piano samples are only ~1 second in length and the rest of the sound is looped. So virtually none of the original decay of the piano was captured and an artificial envelope is required, otherwise it would sound like an organ. Look at software sampled pianos which are also recorded at full duration and you're not going to find a way to increase sustain of those either.

 

The problem with artificial envelopes it's really difficult for them to capture the true envelope of the decaying note. This applies to string instruments and electromechanical pianos. If you look at the natural decay of one of these instruments in an audio editor, you'll likely find the decay is not linear. It can be more exponential, but the shape of the envelope changes based on velocity and of course each note will have it's own natural decay envelope. Now imaging the complexity of trying to recreate all of these envelopes for every note at many velocities. Most of the time they would simple create longer envelopes in the bass scaling perfectly to shorter decays in the treble. Just like stretching samples to cover multiple notes creates a more uniform sound so too do these completely uniform envelopes. But it's funny, I think people have become so accustomed to the uniformity of sound in hardware instruments, they find the natural individuality of real instruments (or digital instruments that capture more of that individuality) to be "wrong" or faulty.

 

One time someone posted clav examples with one real and the rest coming from various hardware synths. I could hear the difference but also definitively show the difference by looking at the waveforms and seeing the perfectly linear decays of the fakes vs. real.

 

Yes you could use a compressor to artificially boost the sustain of a naturally occurring note, like guitarists have done for decades, but that can really wreck havoc on the sound. Maybe subtle compression might help, I don't know.

 

The Kronos pianos sound as they do because of how they were recorded.

 

You might try a 3rd party piano like K-Sound or the Acoustisamples C7 Grand (which I distribute through Purgatory Creek). You can load the full instruments into your Kronos and try them out in demo mode (interrupted by reoccurring silence).

 

Finally, it is possible to load the wav samples from the SGX-1 pianos into HD-1 and play with them using the tools available in the HD-1 engine, but you will lose a lot in the process. Those engines are important and make things possible that can't be done with basic sampler engines.

 

Busch.

[Mighty Ferguson]

Busch's response makes good sense to me. As has been pointed out in previous threads, while you can't edit the SGX decay, you can increase the release time. I know that's not strictly what's being asked, but I found that bumping it up a bit makes it a bit more playable in terms of feel, at least compared to what I was previously used to (Motif pianos).

[J. Dan]

Wanting an ADSR EG on the piano is as head scratching to me as wanting one on a clonewheel. As I mentioned, pick a piano from a different engine (HD1) and you can do it there. It won't sound as good, but putting an artificial EG on a piano sound won't sound good anyway, so you probably haven't lost anything.

[Pa Gherkin]

I've had a couple of DPs that I wish had an ADSR available for the AP voices in order to mitigate their samples' plunkyness. For instance,being able to increase the decay time of the upper midrange of the PX5S would be a real advantage. It's a phenomenon that is common in several DPs. As it stands you just have to find a DP that "sings" more if the short decay bothers you. Also,the ability to apply an ADSR to piano voices can yield some very interesting sounds.

 

That plunkyness is why I'm currently using Roland PCM pianos live while my PX sits home in its flightcase. Roland's supernatural pianos don't really do it for me either.

[Shamanczarek]

The ability to add Release to Clonewheel sounds is one of the main reasons I continue to use my lowly $300 Casio WK-3800 after almost 10 years. This allows me to program very convincing Waiting for the Sun or Lucy in the Sky Lowrey/Gibson Organ sounds which are very important to the music I do in Doors and Beatles tribute bands. While I would like to upgrade to a more professional Keyboard I don't know of anything else that can do what the Casio does.

[Meta]

On the Kronos, can you layer a looped piano decay sample set? Perhaps by combining engines?

 

If so, give the decay sample layer a slow attack and have it slowly take over the decay, crossfading with the original piano patch. Extend it out as far as you want and experiment with fading it using a combination of amp and filter envelopes. If you can create a looped sample set from the same samples used in the piano you're enhancing, that might be better to avoid phasing problems or noticeable timbre changes in the final result.

 

I've done something similar with a Kurzweil PC3 as part of an approach to augment the triple strike piano. It really comes alive and is much more inspiring to play. I timed the looped decay sample to roughly match a reference acoustic piano. Real pianos sing for a surprisingly long time.

 

That said, in a complex mix or on stage with a band the shorter decay of many of these factory piano interpretations are quite usable - even advantageous in some cases where tight decays may help keep the overall mix punchier and cleaner.

 

For solo playing and arrangements where the piano is especially featured, it's nice to let the sound sing.

 

 

[Synthoid]

For solo playing and arrangements where the piano is especially featured, it's nice to let the sound sing.

 

 

+1

[timwat]

Perhaps you can create the solo piano your tastes desire via Combi mode.

 

Build your longer-decay supplement in the HD engine using one of the standard piano waveforms. As you're increasing decay, ALSO increase the attack to soften the attack transient.

 

Use the AP that's closest to your ear (that uses the SD Piano engine) as first layer. And use your "long decay" supplement underneath to support the sound with additional decay, volume to taste.

 

Using this approach, you can also use all kinds of little tricks - like only having your add'l decay in one of the stereo channels, or treated with different FX than the main piano sound, etc.

 

Not sure this will provide results you ultimately desire, but perhaps it's a path to experiment since you already own the Kronos.

 

 

 

[J. Dan]

Have you tried running it through a compressor IFX? That will make the decay seem longer.

[RudyS]

Have you tried running it through a compressor IFX? That will make the decay seem longer.

 

How does that work Dan, just out of interest?

[burningbusch]

Here's a little listening example. It includes two highly regarding software pianos, two newer hardware APs, the Kronos German and Japanese grands and finally the last example which was done twice because I was actually shocked at how poor the sustain is.

 

All pianos were triggered by four notes of MIDI velocity 80, recorded and normalized to peak (so though you will hear some apparent loudness differences that has to do with how the pianos are set up and respond to velocity).

 

In order:

Ravenscroft

Kronos Japanese

Forte Rich Grand

Integra-7 Full Grand

Kronos German

Spectrasonics C7

Roland Superior Grand

Roland Superior Grand ~9 seconds

 

The decay is very rapid on the Superior Grand and by about 8 seconds it's pretty much gone plus the ugly loop and unnatural sound makes it worth a listen. Honestly I don't hear a big difference in the volume of the last second between any of these and visually in Protools it's indicating the same thing, with the exception of the Superior Grand obviously.

 

I'm only posting this to show, IMO, that when people are talking about lack of sustain and too quick a decay that's not really what's going on here. There is some other aspect of the sound that doesn't agree with them.

 

AP Sustain Test

 

Busch.

[J. Dan]

Have you tried running it through a compressor IFX? That will make the decay seem longer.

 

How does that work Dan, just out of interest?

 

Guitar players use compression all the time to increase sustain. You set the threshold so that the louder part gets reduced in volume. Overall volume is increased so that the compressed portion is the same volume except now when it drops below the threshold, the part that was quieter before is now louder.

 

[engineerjoel]

I completely totally agree with the OP (AWKeys).

 

All KRONOS pianos seem to 'choke down' immediately after the note is played--no matter what velocity--(i.e. M1'ish piano). The decays' are too quick (i.e. Roland MKS-20). I've never heard any real acoustic piano decay as fast as the Kronos pianos.

 

I find myself over using the sustain pedal (which many time which leads to just a washy sound) to try to maintain some sort of decay/sustain to the sound.

 

The only direct comparison I have done is between the Kronos and CP4. The CP4 has much more realistic and natural sounding decay.

[aronnelson]

Why do you think this is? Korg must be sampling/recording the actual real decay of the piano. Do you think it's too closely mic'ed??? Even the PX-5S in certain live situations will seem to have less decay that when you play it through headphones etc...

[aronnelson]

Busch,

 

Interesting. All I can say is that when playing live - if I have an exposed solo intro - some pianos sound like there's a lot of attack and it rapidly decays into a softer sustain. What this makes me do is play "more notes" or hit the sustain pedal a lot more.

Now on a real piano, I can use much sparser voicings and the notes "ring" and sound fuller.

That being said, I have noticed that I have the least problems with the S90ES piano. Now another factor is mono vs. stereo - this "problem" is much more pronounced when playing mono. I know this because I have played many gigs in stereo with my Kronos and the sound is much richer and the decay not nearly as bad.

[burningbusch]

I completely totally agree with the OP (AWKeys).

 

All KRONOS pianos seem to 'choke down' immediately after the note is played--no matter what velocity--(i.e. M1'ish piano). The decays' are too quick (i.e. Roland MKS-20). I've never heard any real acoustic piano decay as fast as the Kronos pianos.

 

I find myself over using the sustain pedal (which many time which leads to just a washy sound) to try to maintain some sort of decay/sustain to the sound.

 

The only direct comparison I have done is between the Kronos and CP4. The CP4 has much more realistic and natural sounding decay.

 

Refer to the sustain test I posted above. What are you hearing in the other piano examples decay (all of which are natural with the exception of the Rolands) that makes them sound better/longer decay than the Kronos? I'm not hearing it. The software pianos, Kronos and Kurzweil (I believe) use the natural decay of the notes. I suppose one could measure db level at x time, but like I said in Protools the levels at 5 seconds looked similar across the board. Rolands and Yamaha don't use natural decays, they use artificial envelopes.

 

Busch.

[burningbusch]

Busch,

 

Interesting. All I can say is that when playing live - if I have an exposed solo intro - some pianos sound like there's a lot of attack and it rapidly decays into a softer sustain. What this makes me do is play "more notes" or hit the sustain pedal a lot more.

Now on a real piano, I can use much sparser voicings and the notes "ring" and sound fuller.

That being said, I have noticed that I have the least problems with the S90ES piano. Now another factor is mono vs. stereo - this "problem" is much more pronounced when playing mono. I know this because I have played many gigs in stereo with my Kronos and the sound is much richer and the decay not nearly as bad.

 

I don't doubt that at all. What I'm arguing is what people are calling decay or lack of sustain is something else. The level at a certain time can be measure. The difference between the attack and level at x number of seconds can be measured.

 

Also remember with acoustic pianos the impact of the resonance of the instrument is FAR greater than any hardware piano I've every heard (the resonance of the instrument and string/damper resonance). FAR GREATER. There are a few software pianos that get closer.

 

Do this, place speakers at ear level right by an acoustic piano, trigger a sampled note that's at the exact volume as the acoustic piano note. Listen to the single acoustic piano note vs. the sampled and you should hear little difference. Pianos are sampled a note at a time, each note isolated from the others. What is extraordinarily difficult to do is recreate the instrument as a whole from these individual parts.

 

Busch.

[aronnelson]

I think you nailed it when you said Yamaha doesn't use natural decays. I think for live, they realized the problem and adjusted the decays accordingly.

[aronnelson]

> you should hear little difference

 

Again, you are right. I played a gig with a Yamaha piano next to me. I did the same thing and was amazed at how much my Yamaha keyboard sounded like the Yamaha piano. The tone was so close.

 

> What is extraordinarily difficult to do is recreate the instrument as a whole from these individual parts

 

I guess so. I guess I might need to crank up the sympathetic effect in the PX-5S hahahaha and maybe the Kronos!

[burningbusch]

I think you nailed it when you said Yamaha doesn't use natural decays. I think for live, they realized the problem and adjusted the decays accordingly.

 

Still, measure it. Prove it.

 

Here I added another to the test. This is my Yamaha Avantgrand recorded from the line outs. I also measured peak during the last 1 second of sustain for each.

 

So the order is:

Ravenscoft: -31db

Kronos Japanese: -27db

Forte: -33db

Integra-7: -25db

Kronos German: -25db

Yamaha AvantGrand: -32db

Spectrasonics C7: -26db

Roland Superior: -32db

Roland Superior long

 

AP Sustain Test 2

 

Busch.

[mate stubb]

Issues like this are why I don't use grand piano live in my rock bands.

 

I use a layered upright patch with some compression on it to make it cut. The result helps me resist the urge to play too many notes to fill up the space, as mentioned above.

 

It's bad enough all the obsessing I do over organ tone.

[burningbusch]

How come no one ever complains about the ridiculously quick decay on Rhodes samples on all these instruments? Here's my Mark I -75 in a Forte, natural decay. When have you ever heard a digital hardware Rhodes with this level of sustain?

 

Rhodes Sustain

 

Busch.

[aronnelson]

I don't notice the fast decay on the Kronos for Rhodes. I do hear it on some of the PX-5S programs, but that's why I hardly use the factory presets.