TaurusT Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Hi there, What kind of modulation is Cm to Fm? A Common chord modulation (based on the fact that the triads in C-minor include the F-minor triad)? The progression doesn't have a pivotchord however, it goes directly from Cm to Fm (Cm-Cm-Cm-Cm-Fm-C#-Fm-C#) Does that make it a "direct common chord modulation" or is there another term for it? Researching this gives me a load of different answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaurusT Posted February 23, 2016 Author Share Posted February 23, 2016 And a variation to do that: - how about if I change the progression to Cm-Cm-Cm-Cm-C-Fm-C#-Fm-C# (so the Cm actually moves to a C-major first before hitting the Fm). Would that be seen as 2 modulations? What kinds in that case...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 If you have time, patience and inclination, I like Arnold Schoenberg's ( not easy, due to his going into details you might find to be philosophical, or not relevant ) Theory of Harmony You can see it as a free PDF. It is hard to sense what is going on without the melody, but Cminor for x bars then C(7) to Fm is common but remaining in key of Cminor. To say that a song has modulated, according to Arnold, certain conditions have to be present. He speaks of very passing momentary modulations , but essentially seems to embrace mono tonality. Your chord progression appears to easily be in C minor. You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d halfnote Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 I think you may be on the wrong track, tryna compose music by theory rather than sound. Theory is a tool to understand what acomposer has done NOT THE RULES FOR HOW IT'S DONE. There's no real answer to yer question without hearing context & even then answers will reflect personal preference rather than "what's best". d=halfnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timwat Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 I think you may be on the wrong track, tryna compose music by theory rather than sound. Although I've re-read Taurus' two posts now several times, and he doesn't indicate that he's composing anything. I got the sense he was analyzing an existing piece of music, but admittedly I could be misunderstanding his posts. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xKnuckles Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 I can't concentrate on the posts ...... I am far too distracted by the fact that IMRT seems to be suddenly multiplying..... "Turn your fingers into a dust rag and keep them keys clean!" Bluzeyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindaru Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 That threw me off, too. Had to look at the names on each post twice to make sure I was not seeing things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaurusT Posted February 23, 2016 Author Share Posted February 23, 2016 That threw me off, too. Had to look at the names on each post twice to make sure I was not seeing things. That cracked me up. Lots o babies. It's an orchestral piece I'm making. I want to know the theory behind this transition (I'm trying to make sense of what I'm composing theoretically). Cm is a very much established mode in that piece of music, First the scale is C-dorian on top of that Cm for 4 bars. Then it is followed by a C-Moorish Phrygian scale played over that Cm chord in the background, before it eventually moves to Fm. There's both an Eb and an E in that Moorish Phrygian scale, which seems to clash with the Eb in Cm when it hits the E on purpose for a moment, but it all sounds great the way it is timed. Also, when it hits that E sounds like the leading tone to the F when it moves to Fmino (as if it were the major 3rd in a C-major chord). So in Cm-Cm-Cm-Cm-C-Fm-C#-Fm-C# Would that C (+moorish phrygian mode) be a pivotchord (a V) to Fm (i-chord) and therefore be a "common chord" modulation? The problem with that theory is that earlier the Cm has had a C-dorian playing over it. And that means no Ab in that scale, which ought to mean that technically the F-minor would not be a "shared chord" of the first key and the second key. It would have had to be F-major (containing the A of C-dorian) in that case, and it isn't. Anyway, if you know the technical term for this modulation, that would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Williams Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Theory is a tool to understand what a composer has done NOT THE RULES FOR HOW IT'S DONE. I gotta respectfuly disagree with that. Theory is, IMO, the first tool you want to learn to use for composing. Not as a fetter -- as a foundation. -Tom Williams {First Name} {at} AirNetworking {dot} com PC4-7, PX-5S, AX-Edge, PC361 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xKnuckles Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Theory is a tool to understand what a composer has done NOT THE RULES FOR HOW IT'S DONE. I gotta respectfuly disagree with that. Theory is, IMO, the first tool you want to learn to use for composing. Not as a fetter -- as a foundation. Interesting. I respectfully disagree with this, Tom. To me, the primary purpose is of theory is as a tool to translate music into the language of notation. If you compose without using notation (ie: composing by ear, and perhaps by keeping an audio recording of your work rather than a written manuscript)...then theory can be entirely unnecessary. Please Note: I am not in any way suggesting that theory is something which is undesirable. It is extremely valuable and enables us to massively increase our understanding of music, but I definitely think that the first tool which a composer should be using is his ears. (Which includes his "inner ear" - which is obviously what Beethoven must have used towards the end.) Anyways, just my impression & how it seems to me. "Turn your fingers into a dust rag and keep them keys clean!" Bluzeyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 If you feel ( feel is as good a term as any for opinions on tonality ) the song commences in Cm then the Fm FEELS like you are truly in Fminor, why this post? I am not being sarcastic, but trying to uncover what is at bottom of this question about progression. When I struggled through Schoenberg's book ( the largest volume of info on modulation of ANY book I have run across ) by actually doing the exercises he lays out; the result was a greater sense of what modulation could be, and what it was not. Off the top of my head, I am not convinced you have modulated to Fm, based on my experience with modulation via Theory of Harmony. Once again, Arnold uses the term MONOTONALITY his emphasis is on one tonality. BAck to my central point, are you convinced that you have modulated to Fm? And then somehow what, back to Cm? Arnold speaks of REGIONS and one Region in C major is Fminor As you progress through the book Arnold gives you a gradually expanding pallette of chords that are non diatonic Such as ( in C ) D, and B and C7 and Ab etc. In C major, when one moves to C7 then to F, that is clearly not key of F. Ditto In C major, when D7 is introduced that does not mean you are in G. etc etc You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaurusT Posted February 24, 2016 Author Share Posted February 24, 2016 Thanks for the replies everyone. It's definitely stable once it reaches Fm and Cm doesn't return. Cm->Cm->C->Fm This piece is connected to a piece of visual media, hence there is no inclination of wanting to get back to Cm again and it can easily get to a satisfactory ending in Fm. I'll be sure to give Arnolds book a read in due time. It sounds very interesting to get indepth about this. For the moment though, just trying to find a name for that modulation, even if it wouldn't be 100% correct by Schoenberg's definitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 That cracked me up. Lots o babies. It's an orchestral piece I'm making. I want to know the theory behind this transition (I'm trying to make sense of what I'm composing theoretically). Cm is a very much established mode in that piece of music, First the scale is C-dorian on top of that Cm for 4 bars. Then it is followed by a C-Moorish Phrygian scale played over that Cm chord in the background, before it eventually moves to Fm. There's both an Eb and an E in that Moorish Phrygian scale, which seems to clash with the Eb in Cm when it hits the E on purpose for a moment, but it all sounds great the way it is timed. Also, when it hits that E sounds like the leading tone to the F when it moves to Fmino (as if it were the major 3rd in a C-major chord). So in Cm-Cm-Cm-Cm-C-Fm-C#-Fm-C# Would that C (+moorish phrygian mode) be a pivotchord (a V) to Fm (i-chord) and therefore be a "common chord" modulation? The problem with that theory is that earlier the Cm has had a C-dorian playing over it. And that means no Ab in that scale, which ought to mean that technically the F-minor would not be a "shared chord" of the first key and the second key. It would have had to be F-major (containing the A of C-dorian) in that case, and it isn't. Anyway, if you know the technical term for this modulation, that would be great. by Taurus the other babies face! I wanted to revisit this Cm Dorian to C moorish phrygian mode and finally to Fm You were speaking in terms of a few bars of C dorian.. a few bars and already you speak of modulating? That runs counter to my half way understood admittedly, understanding of harmonic theory. I thought the C dorian had to be established before a modulation, but that is old fashioned I suppose. C Dorian is not C minor which I may be mistaken about, but I thought Cm was C Aeolian or C D Eb F G Ab Bb You have attributed the A natural within the C minor as coming from F major! This seems needlessly confusing, not to mention C Dorian is associated with Bb major not F major. Ron Miller has two books on modal music from a 20-21st century perspective, that are as close to what Herbie and Wayne Shorter are into, as any book. [video:youtube] Your asking for a correct theory approved label for your modulation seems ill fitted to the present day. It seems like most rules of the past are no longer paid attention to.. your progression seems more modern than the theory books that upheld the practices of 19 century music, a mismatch of eras. The horses have left the barn.. it simply does not apply any longer. Modes were originally exclusively one mode per song ( a hunch ) I believe modes were named after provinces in Greek times. One mode per "city" so to speak. Fast forward to now, and any mode can quickly follow any mode! Same idea with modulation.. modulation presumed you had spent some time in a key generally more than 4 bars.. Why do you need a name for your composition that fits in with theory? Just one baby face to another! You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug White Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 I think if you adjust your chord names a bit, the modulation gets clarified. Change the chord spelling of your C# to Db: Cm-Cm-Cm-Cm | Fm-Db-Fm-Db So, your modulation is from an Eb/Cm to Ab/Fm key signature at the pipe (|). That would be what your score would look like. I'd consider this a straight common chord modulation (Fm is a common chord in the Eb/Cm & Ab/Fm keys), no pivot chord used. Your other example the C is used as a pivot chord to get from the Eb/Cm key to the Ab/Fm key, which is still a common chord form of modulation, but also makes use of a chromatic modulation off that 3rd to build the pivot chord of C. (again substituting the Db spelling for the C# to tidy up the key signature): Cm-Cm-Cm-Cm-C | Fm-Db-Fm-Db At least this is they way I would interpret the modulation. Live Rig: SV-1 | Sk1 | Prophet 6 | Sub37 > SM10 > SS3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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