Chorus/Vibrato

[Dr88s]

This is so basic of a question that I'm embarrassed to ask it here, but if I don't ask I might never learn.

 

I play rock. Whenever I play my clonewheel, the C/V is strictly off and I just use drawbars and Leslie sim to shape and dynamically change the sound. The C/V switch has never been touched...

 

Is C/V used in rock? Can someone point me to some well known classic songs that would use it? Or is it more of a jazz/blues type of thing?

 

[marczellm]

Emerson, Lake & Palmer's Endless Enigma comes to mind around the 2:00 mark. Until I first played a clone I thought it was Leslie, but it's CV.

[Delaware Dave]

Dreams by the allman brothers. Listen to the studio (original) version. He's using C3. You can hear it distinctly in the first 20 seconds of the song.

 

[HammondDave]

Jon Lord used CV quite a bit... Especially in the early days. Greg Rollie used it a lot in Santana.

 

I actually use it quite a bit in my blues/soul band. It animates everything beautifully. Like Rollie, I love using it and ramping up the Leslie speed. It also adds so much definition to the key click. This is why it is a crucial element in the sound of HAMMOND clones, and where most of the clone manufacturers fail.

 

Last night I asked Guido and Andrea how they nailed the CV in the Mojo when so many huge companys with greater resources struggle with it. Guido said "We just studied the original circuitry..." Well, that seems like a logical starting point. But if that's the case, why can't H/S, Nord, and so many others do it?

[ashevillecabbie]

Intro to "You Keep Me Hanging On" by Vanilla Fudge.

[Polkahero]

Check out early Santana songs. Gregg Rolie uses Chorus quite extensively.

[Doberfort]

Ken Hensley used it frequently in Uriah Heep. Listen to Sweet Freedom.

[Dr88s]

Thanks to all. Those are some good starting points.

I'll have a listen and report back.

[Doerfler]

Dreams by the allman brothers.

 

this. first song that popped into my head when I read the OP's post.

You don't have to listen for it. It's right there in your face in the beginning of the song.

[Delaware Dave]

Funny thing is our band does the Molly Hatchet version of the song because they think that version is better than the Allman Brothers. Go figure.....

[B3Nut]

All over the place. Most guys usually used the C3 setting...Gregg Rolie used C1 a lot, as did Danny Federici.

 

No rules, play with the vibrato and chorus...experiment. V1 can be a lot of fun, mixed with chorale it gets a deranged neurotic wiggle thing going on...think Tony Kaye on the first Yes record. Small vibrato on an M-100, equivalent to V1 on a console.

 

TP

[Delaware Dave]

The issue with the clones is that until recently the C/V emulation is not good. I can never use C3 w/ my XM2 (XK1 in a rack). It's way too warbly and not authentic. The real issue is what's the standard for a good sounding C/V? C/V on a 50's Hammond sounds different than a 60's and the early 70's. A100 C/V sounds different than a 50's B3. L100's don't use a vibrato scanner, they use a vibrato line box. Someone's standard might be based on the individual Hammond they are accustomed to playing. I always compare the C/V on a clone against my 57 B3, which has a nice purr. I guess if I owned a mid 60's A100 I might not be so adverse to the C/V on my XM2.

[B3Nut]

The A-100 C/V was inherited from Alan Young's late 1957 redesign of the Hammond vibrato system, when the small metal open-frame linebox replaced the earlier wooden one. The mix resistor was changed from 22K to 12K in the new system. 1958 and later -3 consoles (and the M-3 spinet) have the metal linebox and 12K mix resistor.

 

One of my archetypes for great chorus is the post-1960 Van Gelder organ recordings on the house '59 C-3, which is a metal linebox/12K resistor console. Nice warm and full...really captured well on records like Larry Young's "Unity"...

 

My A-100's and my '63 B-3 all have nice deep chorus, but I still don't like my XK-1's chorus, it's unnaturally warbly in the upper octaves where the real consoles naturally thin out a bit and just shimmer, even on a late red-cap console where the line box caps haven't drifted. They didn't model the frequency-dependent vibrato depth changes that occur on a real console at all. They seem to have fixed that in the SK's and XK-1c...

[DanL]

Funny thing is our band does the Molly Hatchet version of the song because they think that version is better than the Allman Brothers. Go figure.....

 

sigh... Montana does the AB version, while it's a guitar anthem, you can get pretty creative with the organ voicings.

 

[Steve Nathan]

I use Chorus/Vibrato all the time, even on Country records. So often in fact, I can't pull a specific example off the top of my head, but I love the way you can give smaller organ sounds "character", and even build a little tension with C/V.

[Paul Harrison]

I use Chorus/Vibrato all the time, even on Country records.

 

I actually use it quite a bit in my blues/soul band.

 

Same here.

 

It animates everything beautifully. Like Rolie, I love using it and ramping up the Leslie speed. It also adds so much definition to the key click.

 

Yes, for jazz & soul with light overdrive, a nice chorus vibrato adds a warm "purr" or "shimmer", and for blues & rock, it enhances the growl of heavy overdrive and the swirl of slow Leslie ... and adds "presence" overall.

 

This is why it is a crucial element in the sound of HAMMOND clones, and where most of the clone manufacturers fail.

 

Amen!

 

Last night I asked Guido and Andrea how they nailed the CV in the Mojo when so many huge companys with greater resources struggle with it. Guido said "We just studied the original circuitry..." Well, that seems like a logical starting point. But if that's the case, why can't H/S, Nord, and so many others do it?

 

Good question!

[Paul Harrison]

Is C/V used in rock? Can someone point me to some well known classic songs that would use it?

 

Here's a couple of classic rock Hammond tracks with chorus vibrato.

 

 

In this one, the C/V adds animation throughout, and especially in Rick Wakeman's solo (5:50-6:15, 6:30-6:42).

 

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Tdu4uKSZ3M

 

 

In this one, Keith Emerson starts with C/V on then switches it off around 1:50 for an effective contrast.

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

This one starts and finishes with C/V off but in the middle has a good example of how C/V adds definition to the keyclick (8:45-10:02) and also shows C/V alternating on and off (10:55-12:42):

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

This one's not exactly rock but has some great Hammond playing, with nice interaction between C/V and Leslie (plus some nice motor-switching pitch-bending!), especially in Roy Phillips' solo (3:22-5:40):

 

The Peddlers - Lockshen Pudding [YouTube embedding disabled]

[Ross Ward]

I use Chorus/Vibrato all the time, even on Country records. So often in fact, I can't pull a specific example off the top of my head, but I love the way you can give smaller organ sounds "character", and even build a little tension with C/V.

 

Being a country fan, I think I can help you out. "How Do I Live" by Trisha Yearwood and "Don't Rush" by Kelly Clarkson/Vince Gill. If you're not using C/V, you're going to have to explain to me how to get that sound!

[Steve Nathan]

"How Do I Live" by Trisha Yearwood and "Don't Rush" by Kelly Clarkson/Vince Gill.

 

It is me on organ for both of those tracks, and I don't doubt I used some choice of C/V on both, but I'd have to go back and listen closely to take a guess which and where.

 

[Steve Nathan]

I listened to the Kelly/Vince record on Youtube, and remembered it is me on organ, piano and a Rhodes sound (maybe Lounge Lizard??). I hear lots of organ chimps, with a Charlie Hodges sort of drawbar setting, and mostly fast Leslie (a 122 with Svet Winged C 6550s) . The little single note answer line in chorus one is the Rhodes sound with a somewhat quick vibrato. Can't swear to any C/V going on, but its Youtube

 

 

[Steve Nathan]

Refreshed my memory on the Tricia cut. I'm on organ and Matt Rollings is on piano and a "keys" patch I programed that combined mostly Rhodes and a dark pad that grew under the Rhodes decay. As long ago as that was, it may have been a Roland MKS20 with the pad coming from probably a Triton/JV990 combination.

If you're talking about the organ you hear most clearly in the intro, it is again something like the other song, (Hodge inspired), like 008003200, with the Leslie speed coordinated with the volume pedal. In other words, I like to "squeeze" the volume up as the speed is beginning to accelerate, and back down as it is decelerating. Still can't swear one way or the other on C/V.

I also cut this song on LeAnn Rhimes (sole keys player that time), and the two records battled for chart space. Originally, Jerry Bruckheimer asked LeAnn to do the track for the movie, but when he heard her version he thought her voice sounded too young to be believable on the song. He turned to Towny Brown who recommended Trisha. Her's went in the movie and Leann's did better on the charts.

[Ross Ward]

Hey, thanks for the response! I may have been mistaking your speed/volume coordination with C/V. There are some tracks from other artists (not country) that I've heard with similar drawbar settings, but the sound "wobbles" a bit more. With the way they sit in the track though, oftentimes it's hard to pick out exactly what's going on. But, like I've heard you say many times...no two organs or players are the same. So I use my ears and try to get close.

[mynameisdanno]

Also some fine examples in Benmont Tench's playing with Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers.

[Paul Harrison]

My A-100's and my '63 B-3 all have nice deep chorus, but I still don't like my XK-1's chorus, it's unnaturally warbly in the upper octaves where the real consoles naturally thin out a bit and just shimmer, even on a late red-cap console where the line box caps haven't drifted. They didn't model the frequency-dependent vibrato depth changes that occur on a real console at all. They seem to have fixed that in the SK's and XK-1c.

 

Yes, on the XK3c and XK1 that I used to have, the C/V was too warbly (too much modulation at the top end, as you note, unlike even late vintage consoles such as the brand new 1974 B3 that I used to have - that's it in the photo, taken in 1979!), whereas on the XK1c that I now have, the C/V is not bad ... but still not as satisfying as a vintage console or some current VB3 and HX3 contenders, to my ear.

[Ross Ward]

Also some fine examples in Benmont Tench's playing with Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers.

 

Yes! Totally forgot about Benmont (and am ashamed). I remember seeing some Keyboard Mag videos of him at his home studio, and I think I remember him saying that he uses Chorus on the intro to "Refugee". Can't remember if it was C1 or C3 though. I'm leaning toward C1.

[mynameisdanno]

I tend to think C1 whenever I ask myself "what would Benmont do," which is pretty much every time I'm in the studio.

[Dr88s]

This thread is golden to me.

 

Gotta try using chorus - seems like vibrato isn't used all that much. I'm a big fan of both Greg Rolie and Benmont Tench.

 

Great to have a guy like Mr. Nathan around with real-life stories of what goes on the record.

 

It's my understanding that the VR09's C/V isn't all that authentic. I hope to be upgrading to an NE5 soon...

[Skinny]

I rarely used chorus until I started using VB3. Any of my previous clonewheels had chorus that was too inauthentic to use.

[Dr88s]

While we're on the topic:

 

One of my favorite organ solos ever, short but so sweet, is Billy Preston on 'That's the Way God Planned It' (at 32:24 of

).

 

Is that just fast Leslie with some overdrive or is there C/V on there too?

[Paul Harrison]

... Billy Preston on 'That's the Way God Planned It' (at 32:24 of

).

 

Is that just fast Leslie with some overdrive or is there C/V on there too?

 

All of the above! The C/V loses its identity when the Leslie is switched to fast after the first phrase in the solo, but it's still there, thickening up the overall effect of the magic combination of C/V shimmer, overdrive growl, and Leslie swirl. The C/V can be heard clearly with the slow Leslie in the intro though (30:30-42).