Finally got to play a Kurzweil Forte

[Dana.]

The Sam Ash in Manhattan now has one on the floor.

 

First thing I noticed is that the action doesn't look or feel quite like the TP40 used in previous Kurzweils (or in current Nords). The white keys seemed more ivory in color, and the black keys seemed a bit more textured. It also seemed a bit softer to play.

 

Scrolling through the AP sounds, I dug "70's Album" the most. Definitely one of the best "vibe" pianos in current hardware.

 

Unfortunately, the Rhodes sounds were a disappointment. While they are detailed and have plenty of vibe, from about C6 up, a lot of the presets thin out to an extent that's nearly unusable. It sounds like they go from multiple layers to one. For a $4,000 keyboard, that's inexcusable. I was shocked. Perhaps people who own a Forte or have spent time with one can corroborate? Maybe this is something that has been fixed in an OS update?

 

For comparison, I switched to the Kawai MP11 and was knocked out by how well the first Rhodes patch sounds and plays. It's probably the best experience I've had playing Rhodes on a digital keyboard, and it kicks the CP4, SV-1, Stage 2, etc. up and down the block.

[ITGITC]

 

Thanks, Dana.

 

This is really helpful info.

 

 

 

 

[Aidan]

Sounds like they need to get Mr Weiser in ASAP to do a bit of tweaking for them.

[dongna]

Just curious what you were playing/listening through... and if you were using the same for the Forte as the MP11?

[Dana.]

Just curious what you were playing/listening through... and if you were using the same for the Forte as the MP11?

Same pair of headphones for both. I think they were AKG.

[Dana.]

Sounds like they need to get Mr Weiser in ASAP to do a bit of tweaking for them.

Maybe Dave can shed some light on this. It appears to be an Achilles heel for what are otherwise some of the better Rhodes sounds I've played in hardware.

[Al Coda]

For comparison, I switched to the Kawai MP11 and was knocked out by how well the first Rhodes patch sounds and plays. It's probably the best experience I've had playing Rhodes on a digital keyboard, and it kicks the CP4, SV-1, Stage 2, etc. up and down the block.

 

KAWAI MP11 is probably the best DP on the market when one likes the acoustic piano sounds/samples which are original KAWAI grandpianos throughout.

 

The Rhodes already sounds very good in the MP7 and now I wonder if there are differences in Rhodes, Wurli and Clav between MP11 and MP7 at all.

 

A.C.

[Bachus]

For comparison, I switched to the Kawai MP11 and was knocked out by how well the first Rhodes patch sounds and plays. It's probably the best experience I've had playing Rhodes on a digital keyboard, and it kicks the CP4, SV-1, Stage 2, etc. up and down the block.

 

KAWAI MP11 is probably the best DP on the market when one likes the acoustic piano sounds/samples which are original KAWAI grandpianos throughout.

 

The Rhodes already sounds very good in the MP7 and now I wonder if there are differences in Rhodes, Wurli and Clav between MP11 and MP7 at all.

 

A.C.

all sounds of the mp11 are also in the mp7.. And then the mp7 has some more, a lot more... But then the piano action of the mp11 is just plane awesome..

 

 

[DaBous]

Forte Owner here.

 

There is a wide variety of Rhodes / Wurly patches on the Forte. I don't use the patch you mentioned. But the ones I use are great, the programming on the stock patches is excellent and I haven't had to tweak them much at all.

 

The rhodes patches sound great live - don't thin out at all. I do a lot of soloing into upper registers - sounds full and punchy. I get a lot of compliments on the sound.

 

For live amplification I use 2 EV ZXA1s or Spacestation V3 for smaller venues. Sounds great through either.

 

Be careful of judging based on one patch, there is a wide variety of EP patches on the Forte with lots of different effects.

 

That's my 2 cents anyway.......

 

 

[Dana.]

The Rhodes already sounds very good in the MP7 and now I wonder if there are differences in Rhodes, Wurli and Clav between MP11 and MP7 at all.

I think the sounds are the same, but the actions are different and thus a (ahem) key factor in their playability.

[Dana.]

Be careful of judging based on one patch, there is a wide variety of EP patches on the Forte with lots of different effects.

To clarify, I experienced the thinness with several of the Rhodes patches.

 

I can't recall if Kurzweil has stated that every note of a Rhodes was sampled for these new sounds. If so, based on my experience, I would have to challenge that. It's also possible the Rhodes that was sampled had an upper midrange that was not in ideal condition.

 

Regardless, thanks for the two cents.

[Dave Weiser]

HMmmmm...

This is the first negative feedback I've gotten on the Forte Rhodes. (I did nearly all the Rhodes and Wurlies.) I've heard from literally hundreds of end-users with no similar feedback, so I'm thinking this must be some kind of anomaly.

 

Keyboard Mag review was quite positive on the EPs. (I tend to trust this particular reviewer.)

 

"For realism and playability, the Rhodes and Wurly programs do rival anything Ive heard from software instruments. You get enough variations to cop any classic keyboard tune you could think of. Electric piano sounds from such elite axes as the Yamaha CP1 and Kawai MP11 are also in this league, but the Fortes just somehow have more attitudemore Oakland, less Nob Hilland this isnt reducible to how much overdrive you dial in."

 

http://www.keyboardmag.com/combo---do-all/1191/kurzweil-forte-reviewed/49389

 

 

Not sure what exactly could have been the issue here... The usual suspects come to mind: Bad speakers, possibly an old OS... Maybe a non-standard velocity map was selected? Or a previous customer could have tweaked the master EQ in some awful way, or just gotten the machine into a funky state with a weird combination of sliders/buttons? (The latter is even more likely if the machine ALSO had an old OS.)

 

Hell I've seen it happen at trade shows where I walked away for 15 min, come back and somehow someone managed to get a board into a state where I had to do hard reset.

 

Either way, anyone is welcome to pop by my studio outside of Boston and try out the EPs with nice speakers or headphones in person. If anyone doesn't like 'em I will eat a bug on the spot.

 

The only thing I can think of to chase this down, since the OP doesn't have a unit, is to check out the audio clips online and try to compare from memory?

http://kurzweil.com/product/forte/audio/

 

 

[Moonglow]

.... so I'm thinking this must be some kind of anomaly.

Correct. His name is D-BAN.

[Dana.]

Dave,

 

Thanks for commenting. Knowing your superb work, it makes my experience even more baffling. Since I was using headphones, bad speakers can be ruled out. Also, I turned off the EQ so that the sound would be "flat." It could very well have been an OS/velocity map/"funky state" issue. Would that be global our sound-specific? I ask because I wasn't experiencing the thinness in the AP sounds.

 

If there's an easy way to do a hard reset, I can do it next time I'm at the store and see if the issue is fixed. Otherwise, I dug the sounds and the praise from Keyboard and users is deserved.

[dreamer65]

I had the opportunity to play the Forte during Musik Messe here in Frankfurt this year. I would always and ever favor this board for Rhodes piano. CP4 Rhodes is inferior to this, same for RD-800. It is unbelivable how good this board sounds.

It sounds REAL. Even better than the Nords (well, that's debatable for the acustic pianos and organs, but not for the e-pianos).

Maybe your unit was a loan from Guitar Center...

[Brettymike]

Guarantee the Fortes velocity settings and eq were all up the wop - which is typical for most all keyboards in a shop show room.

I haven't got to play one YET, but they sound stunning on youtube.

Brett

[Doerfler]

The Sam Ash in Manhattan now has one on the floor.

 

Dude, you sure get a lot done on your lunch breaks.

 

Thanks for sharing.

[Sundown]

For comparison, I switched to the Kawai MP11 and was knocked out by how well the first Rhodes patch sounds and plays. It's probably the best experience I've had playing Rhodes on a digital keyboard, and it kicks the CP4, SV-1, Stage 2, etc. up and down the block.

 

I know that patch well... Played it tonight, and just about every other night. It's even better when you shut off the autopan (Effect 1), or cut the intensity in half.

 

I used it for an improvised solo on a recent track, and it sat great in the mix. It was one of those solos where you stumble onto a new lick, and just can't get enough of the playback.

 

Fun stuff...

[Hoochie]

As a Forte owner myself I'm not experiencing what you describe.

 

I have a suitcase Rhodes (beat to hell but I've owned and gigged a few) and was very impressed at how the velocity responce and the sound right down to the soft little thump of the initial strike mimics the genuine article.

 

The older OS can cause weird things and kids noodling on it in the store

can jack stuff up. Especially phasing because of the same sample and pitch twice. I've done it to myself and after much headscratching found I told it to do it.

The forte is very forgiving of that.

 

And the eq is more of a sculpting tool than a tone adjust.

It can radically alter the instrument without blooming out of control or distorting.

I did an entire song with the wrong patch playing because my iPad

fell down but to my astonishment I had bumped the high eq all the way up and turned a Yamaha acoustic piano into a Dx7.

 

I would go at it again with the latest OS and hard factory reset.

 

And ya, stunning is a good metaphor.

I catch myself laughing out loud it's that good.

I sound like a fanboy but after 10 odd years

of dealing with head scratching WTF limitations, feature glut glue swimming, OS's with acronyms Cliff Claven of Cheers never dreamed of,

this is really special.

 

John

[ahutnick]

I am a Forte owner as well and I also owned and gigged with a Rhodes for years and the Rhodes on the Forte is very impressive IMHO.Besides having the latest OS and hard factory reset I would also recommend trying different velocity settings. Chances are that Forte has an old OS as most stores tend to not update their keyboards

[erik_nie]

Perhaps it also has to do with the AKG headphone. I have one (K240) is not that easy to drive. My Kurzweil PC3 sounds soft and thin when connected directly. Using a cheap mixer in between changes that into being full and kicking.

I assume Kurzweil uses the same kind of headphone amplifier inside the Forte.

[Dana.]

I know that patch well... Played it tonight, and just about every other night. It's even better when you shut off the autopan (Effect 1), or cut the intensity in half.

I turned off all the effects and flattened the EQ so I could hear the sound dry. As is, the bell was too prominent for my taste. Since the store was about to close, I didn't have time to get into the virtual technician, but I would like to next time.

[Dana.]

I would go at it again with the latest OS and hard factory reset.

I'm not interested in updating the OS for a keyboard at Sam Ash that I'm not serious about buying. It's not my place to attempt it either. This is a problem that should be resolved between Kurzweil and Sam Ash. If Dave Weiser wants to put me in touch with a tech at Kurzweil, I'd be happy to share my experience with them, and then they can contact Sam Ash directly to try to resolve it.

[Dana.]

Perhaps it also has to do with the AKG headphone. I have one (K240) is not that easy to drive. My Kurzweil PC3 sounds soft and thin when connected directly. Using a cheap mixer in between changes that into being full and kicking.

I assume Kurzweil uses the same kind of headphone amplifier inside the Forte.

I don't see why headphones would affect specific patches and specific key ranges. If it was a drive issue, it would affect all the sounds, and as I said above, there was no issue with the AP sounds I played.

[allan_evett]

I've spent a few hours on a Forte out at Sweetwater - at Gearfest, 2014 (using headphones), and in their retail store this past summer (through a set of compact studio monitors - Yamaha cabs, IIRC). I don't recall hearing thinness in the Rhodes upper registers; though I was so enamored with the character throughout the mid range I might've missed something up north :idk.

 

Will have to listen further to the upper range of the Rhodes Programs when my Forte 7 arrives, shortly - c/o Mr. Weiser

( for his world-class sale and service support through this whole process ). Like Dana, I'm uber impressed with the 70's AP coverage; heck, the whole piano catalog, and then some, is ear candy to me.

 

The Kawaii MP7/MP11 EP's are excellent. I've used the '60's EP' several times; utterly nails the Wurli vibe. Rhodes are very playable, and definitely in upper-class territory. I've recommended the MP7 several times. For a stage 88 in the mid-teens price range it can't be beat.

[Phil Aiken]

Very much considering a Forte as my "one board gig" board down the road.....I'd be interested in comments about the physical playability for piano, as well as any impressions of the KB3 engine, both with the on-board sim, and through a Vent/Burn, or real Leslie.

 

[Dana.]

I'd be interested in comments about the physical playability for piano

I found the action on the Forte to be on the lighter side. It's easy to play but can't compete with, say, the Kawai MP11 for approximating the experience of playing a real piano.

[Sundown]

I know that patch well... Played it tonight, and just about every other night. It's even better when you shut off the autopan (Effect 1), or cut the intensity in half.

I turned off all the effects and flattened the EQ so I could hear the sound dry. As is, the bell was too prominent for my taste. Since the store was about to close, I didn't have time to get into the virtual technician, but I would like to next time.

 

I shut-off effects on most boards, but that patch sounds best to me through the onboard amp sim (using the suitcase setting). It's not real gritty, but it gives it a body and a smoothness that it doesn't have otherwise.

 

Depending on what I'm playing, I'll occasionally switch to the "light" velocity curve, as you would really have to slam on an MP11 with the Normal curve to make the Rhodes bark.

 

Great, great patch...

[ElmerJFudd]

Perhaps time to for Kurzweil to ask Fatar to deliver modifications to their designs that meet the desires of their customers. Just because many instrument manufacturers don't have another supplier shouldn't mean that they can't express the most common requests of their customers.

 

Maybe they have, and maybe that's why Crumar is getting a moded TP-8O of late. Hopefully the TP-40 and 100 series will see some attention.

 

At the same time, I hear the Forte is getting a software update with new string resonance model for the sampled pianos. Should be available around the same time as the SE.

[Kenny Ingram]

Kurzweil's actions (Fatar) have really been discussed to death over the years. Most seem to like them, some don't. Recently, I did a complete 180° on my views of them. Their catalogue of lower-end keys (SP lines, ect.) use mostly a Fatar TP-100 action (which, to me, is very, very playable and responsive for piano/ep playing). Most of their higher-end boards (PC lines, Forte, ect.) use the TP-40, which has a much quicker response, which makes it ideal for the keyboards that have the sound palate that Kurzweil has.

 

The lower-end boards are generally used for the "bread and butter" sounds, whereas the higher-ends are used for virtually every category of sound in existence. It has one of the more fast returns and playable action, and it works with so many different types of sounds, more than any other hammer-weighted action keyboard (as opposed to a more slow returnwhich many have, especially the ones discussed above). They probably won't be replacing it when so many professionals who use it, love it.

 

I haven't played the Forte, but on the PC3K, I couldn't have thought of a better action to play all the sounds on board.