changing patches on the fly

[Rockitman]

I play keys in a rock band, have a Roland RD700sx and a Casio XWP1 synth.

Currently, I manually change patches on each board and it can be time consuming, especially when setting up splits.

I saw another keyboard player one night who had an Ipad mounted in front of him and he would make his patch changes by simply using it. I have no idea how he has this setup to do so.

Can somebody give me a basic tutorial on how I can do this? I know nothing about MIDI but I assume that's what he's using, along with some software on his IPAD? I would appreciate a detailed answer, software, cables needed?

 

[Bob L]

I use Set List Maker. Great app to track tunes and manage set list, with the added benefit of sending MIDI program changes.

[Delaware Dave]

Depending on the keyboards being used this can be done w/o using an external device like an Ipad. One keyboard can send a program change message to another keyboard as well as change its own program at the same time.

 

The link below is Kurzweil oriented but it explains how the concept works:

 

http://kurzweil.com/knowledgebase/pc3/setup_mode/382/

[Stokely]

Just a personal preference...but I try to keep things as absolutely simple as I can get. If I can get away from using splits I will, and if I can use a sound that works "well enough" for multiple songs I will. It allows me to spend more time worrying about what I'm playing, and I need that time!

 

Instead of making tons of patches, I prefer to concentrate on making them more dynamic. The keyboard has a say in this type of control of course...my Access Virus let me have a small number of patches but have huge control over most aspects of the sound by virtue of all the controls. Way more fun to dial things in on they fly than just going to the next patch too! Other boards I've had, like my Motif, don't offer that much flexibility.

 

Whatever you end up using, just have a backup plan in case it doesn't work properly (hey I'm a software developer, can't help thinking like that!).

 

I was looking into a Behringer foot controller (name escapes me) primarily to free up my hands. But then it hit me....I just don't use that many patches to warrant toting that around! Not to say it's a bad thing to have a more complex setup, I'm just a lazy sob

 

 

 

[Rockitman]

Thank you but the devil is in the details, which are totally missing in your post. So I buy the app for my IPAD, then what?

[Rockitman]

Just a personal preference...but I try to keep things as absolutely simple as I can get. If I can get away from using splits I will, and if I can use a sound that works "well enough" for multiple songs I will. It allows me to spend more time worrying about what I'm playing, and I need that time!

 

Instead of making tons of patches, I prefer to concentrate on making them more dynamic. The keyboard has a say in this type of control of course...my Access Virus let me have a small number of patches but have huge control over most aspects of the sound by virtue of all the controls. Way more fun to dial things in on they fly than just going to the next patch too! Other boards I've had, like my Motif, don't offer that much flexibility.

 

Whatever you end up using, just have a backup plan in case it doesn't work properly (hey I'm a software developer, can't help thinking like that!).

 

I was looking into a Behringer foot controller (name escapes me) primarily to free up my hands. But then it hit me....I just don't use that many patches to warrant toting that around! Not to say it's a bad thing to have a more complex setup, I'm just a lazy sob

 

 

 

Hey, I hear ya. I wish it was that easy though as the variety of songs we cover force me to change constantly. I mean, sheesh, there are Cars songs I cover which require me to come up with 4 patches for 1 song. There has to be a way to flick a switch and all those presets come up on my boards without me having to manually retrieve them.

 

[wineandkeyz]

You don't need to buy anything except maybe a MIDI cable to connect a MIDI out from your RD-700SX to MIDI in on your Casio. You can save your splits in "Setups" on the RD and can also send MIDI patch changes to the Casio. So you press one button to call up the settings for a song and the RD and Casio will be ready to go.

 

But it does take a little pre-work, and you'll have to get familiar with your two keyboards. Yes, you need to read the manuals. All the information you're asking for is in there.

 

To get started, go to the owner's manual for the RD and read the following sections:

"Connecting External MIDI Devices" (page 101)

"Using the RD-700SX As a Master Keyboard" (page 60)

"Saving Settings to Setups" (page 58)

 

Hope that helps.

[timwat]

Stokely,

 

I think the way of thinking you've described ("...keep things as absolutely simple as I can get.") describes 80-90% of the players in my scene. Many will roll in with a single Nord and spend the entire evening using one of four patches on every song. Very good players too, most of them.

 

I approach things differently. Perhaps because I'm significantly older than other KB players in my scene (and therefore came up playing under different sets of expectations), I try to nail the sounds, signature lines, patches that I possibly can, using splits, layers, control pedals and the like. I regularly gig both the Kronos and Wave to get as many sound options as I can.

 

And I'm not an ace programmer like some on this forum...but of course with the Kronos (and a basic foundation in subtractive synthesis for the Wave) I've got great starting points right out of the box.

 

My point is I stand out like a sore thumb. Not a week goes by that someone on a gig rolls up during a break to tell me they've never gigged with a KB player who nails all the lines with all the sounds (I don't...just some of them).

 

If that's not your preference, I get that. Lot of great players around my parts don't spend all those hours either.

 

But I look at it as an integral part of the gig, and I'm too old to change my ways. Most importantly, it separates me from my competition, and makes me a valuable asset. I'm regularly getting invites to join projects these days.

 

Just something for your consideration.

 

Tim

[AnotherScott]

You don't need to buy anything except maybe a MIDI cable to connect a MIDI out from your RD-700SX to MIDI in on your Casio. You can save your splits in "Setups" on the RD and can also send MIDI patch changes to the Casio. So you press one button to call up the settings for a song and the RD and Casio will be ready to go.

This also works in reverse... the XW-P1 has decent MIDI controller functionality which allow it to call up custom patches that will also change the sound on the Roland.

 

So yes... you can use the Roland to change patches on it and the Casio simultaneously; you can use the Casio to change patches on it and the Roland simultaneously; or you can use an iPhone/iPad/iPodTouch with Set List Maker (or similar app) to send program changes to both the Roland and Casio simultaneously.

[timwat]

Thank you but the devil is in the details, which are totally missing in your post. So I buy the app for my IPAD, then what?

 

Then get an iOS MIDI interface.

 

Here is Sweetwater's current selection of options.

 

The devil IS in the details - which iPad model do you use, do you need 30-pin or Lightning connector, are you looking for more than simple MIDI I/O, do you need audio I/O as well, etc.

 

I don't MIDI my iPad so I can't intelligently comment on which interfaces have recommendations...but many on the forum do. If you narrow down your choices based on features / budget, I'm sure folks here can give you Pro/Con of a couple options compared to each other.

 

Tim

[Rockitman]

You don't need to buy anything except maybe a MIDI cable to connect a MIDI out from your RD-700SX to MIDI in on your Casio. You can save your splits in "Setups" on the RD and can also send MIDI patch changes to the Casio. So you press one button to call up the settings for a song and the RD and Casio will be ready to go.

 

But it does take a little pre-work, and you'll have to get familiar with your two keyboards. Yes, you need to read the manuals. All the information you're asking for is in there.

 

To get started, go to the owner's manual for the RD and read the following sections:

"Connecting External MIDI Devices" (page 101)

"Using the RD-700SX As a Master Keyboard" (page 60)

"Saving Settings to Setups" (page 58)

 

Hope that helps.

 

Wow! That would be a fantastic solution! Thank you for this. I will start reading.

[Stokely]

Stokely,

 

I think the way of thinking you've described ("...keep things as absolutely simple as I can get.") describes 80-90% of the players in my scene. Many will roll in with a single Nord and spend the entire evening using one of four patches on every song. Very good players too, most of them.

 

I approach things differently. Perhaps because I'm significantly older than other KB players in my scene (and therefore came up playing under different sets of expectations), I try to nail the sounds, signature lines, patches that I possibly can, using splits, layers, control pedals and the like. I regularly gig both the Kronos and Wave to get as many sound options as I can.

 

And I'm not an ace programmer like some on this forum...but of course with the Kronos (and a basic foundation in subtractive synthesis for the Wave) I've got great starting points right out of the box.

 

My point is I stand out like a sore thumb. Not a week goes by that someone on a gig rolls up during a break to tell me they've never gigged with a KB player who nails all the lines with all the sounds (I don't...just some of them).

 

If that's not your preference, I get that. Lot of great players around my parts don't spend all those hours either.

 

But I look at it as an integral part of the gig, and I'm too old to change my ways. Most importantly, it separates me from my competition, and makes me a valuable asset. I'm regularly getting invites to join projects these days.

 

Just something for your consideration.

 

Tim

 

Fair enough. I think I'm actually somewhere between you and the 4-patch Nord guy Limit the number of patches but make them more dynamic. I do get that you don't want to sound the same the whole night by any means...I play a bunch of organ but try to at least use the drawbars a lot (badly I'm sure) and play with overdrive, chorus etc to change things up!

 

On the other hand, I tend to get pretty exacting with harmony vocals, and it frustrates me when bands won't practice parts ("We'll be ok, just sing something on the chorus"). So it's not an alien viewpoint by any means! I've seen a wide range of players here when it comes to their setup--one guy (sometimes) brings a b3 and a bunch of other boards, takes him 45 minutes to set up and he's got every song programmed out the wazoo...saw another guy do a classic set on a Korg karma using one synth sound for everything

 

 

[richforman]

I have the same experience and outlook as you Timwat....am no virtuoso, but have learned that putting the time in to combine multiple sounds, in splits and layers and multi-key setups, as needed in songs, being able to get to those setups quickly, and at least getting the patches recognizably close in spirit to the record even though we'll never get them perfect, gets a lot of positive notice and makes one pretty marketable......even more so than killer chops in many band situations.

[timwat]

Rich -

 

In the cover bands I've played in, seldom do my chops ever come into play. When you're talking three horns, three singers and a full rhythm section, there isn't nearly as much space for me to be a badass (compared to my jazz gigs). And even when I combine my best Jan Hammer with my best Herbie Hancock for 16 bars of Let's Stay Together, all they want to do is dance, dance, dance.

 

Stokely, I want to make sure you don't take me the wrong way. I've never heard you play, or your patch decisions. And a big hell yeah to taking vocal harmonies seriously...a few of the singers I work with could learn a thing or two from you. I was just responding to the comment you had written, and it resonated with me with some of what I've experienced out here on the Left Coast. Certainly didn't mean to impugn your skills at all.

 

Tim

[Rockitman]

gentlemen, thank you all for the quick responses. I am going to try the simpler and cheaper route and use what is native in my boards and see if that works for me.

Being the lead singer as well in my band, I totally understand the frustrations of trying to create tight vocal harmonies. but when the guys put in the time and can pull it off, it makes the song so much nicer. I've always said what separates a good cover from a mediocre is how good they're doing the harmonies.

[EscapeRocks]

Rockitman:

 

Wineandkeyz gave you the best answer, in my opinion, for what that's worth.

 

I do something very similar. My setup is a MOXF6 and a FA08.

I have complex splits and layers on each board.

Instead of using any outboard gear, I use the tools available to me on my keyboards. In this case, my MOXF6 operates in Master Mode. I call up the patch, and it changes itself and sends the program change to my Roland FA08, and any other device I might chain in.

 

Yes, you do need to do the work to set it up, but once it is, it makes gigging life so very easy. One button press and my entire rig is ready for the next song.

 

Let us know how it goes if you get stuck on any step.

 

 

[bennyray]

Rockitman:

 

You are so right about harmonies separating the good cover bands to great cover bands. I just joined a new band and thats the first thing i suggested was more work on harmonies.

[Rockitman]

Rockitman:

 

Wineandkeyz gave you the best answer, in my opinion, for what that's worth.

 

I do something very similar. My setup is a MOXF6 and a FA08.

I have complex splits and layers on each board.

Instead of using any outboard gear, I use the tools available to me on my keyboards. In this case, my MOXF6 operates in Master Mode. I call up the patch, and it changes itself and sends the program change to my Roland FA08, and any other device I might chain in.

 

Yes, you do need to do the work to set it up, but once it is, it makes gigging life so very easy. One button press and my entire rig is ready for the next song.

 

Let us know how it goes if you get stuck on any step.

 

 

I agree! and thanks. I plan on getting stuck at some point!!

 

[Rockitman]

Rockitman:

 

You are so right about harmonies separating the good cover bands to great cover bands. I just joined a new band and thats the first thing i suggested was more work on harmonies.

 

you take the third and you take the fifth. Wait a second, I thought I had the fifth, (as he's singing the third), wait a second, who's on first?? and pass that fifth over here, I'm getting thirsty.

[Daniel Heslop]

I have the opposite problem. I have all my sound splits layers etc on my Kross, but I'm playing with a group (really a guy girl duo adding extra musicians) who are completely incapable of following or even making a set list.

The guitar player strums some chords, the singer gazes at him adoringly and once she starts singing the rest of the band finds out what song we are playing.

 

If I do get the right combi and play the actual arrangement on their cd it throws them off, because they are so used to being a duo. So I think in this case simple is better, and I'm better to stick to basic Hammond wurly and piano sounds.

Basically every song is a jam instead of a previously worked out arrangement.

 

[J. Dan]

I don't know your boards well enough, but a couple of these tips may help. In my old rig, which was an Alesis Fusion and a Korg Triton, to keep things simple, fusion was always in song mode (even if there wasn't a sequence or even combination - make a song with the song name we're playing even if it was a piano patch I was playing, or a program change to the Triton). Triton always stayed in combi mode - again, even if I was only playing a single patch. The "song" from the fusion set up both boards. I never did mid-song changes. Everything was set up ahead of time in splits/layers across the 2 tiers. Beginning of the night I'd put the songs in order of the set list on the Fusion. Done.

 

 

Now I have the Kronos which has set list mode - nice! I still set everything up ahead of time, and the lower tier is just a controller, so it's all in the Kronos, and with set list mode it can be a program, combi, or song and it doesn't matter - set the set list for the night and click through,

[CEB]

I have a lot of complex splits and many specialized patch setups. Once the sounds are designed the real work is to get everything in order for the next show. 1 hour show?, 2 hours? 3 hours? 4 hours?, family show? etc.... Some of this new dance stuff is not fit to be performed in front of kids. Setlist change a lot.

 

With Yamaha master mode it could take sometime. With Korg setlist it is super easy. Setlist and the fact I need more zones and resources is what sold me on the Kronos.

 

If you are doing a lot of complex setups you need to work from a setlist. If the band won't do that then quit working with amateurs. Or find a simple gig that call for general sound types.

[DanL]

You don't need to buy anything except maybe a MIDI cable to connect a MIDI out from your RD-700SX to MIDI in on your Casio. You can save your splits in "Setups" on the RD and can also send MIDI patch changes to the Casio. So you press one button to call up the settings for a song and the RD and Casio will be ready to go.

 

But it does take a little pre-work, and you'll have to get familiar with your two keyboards. Yes, you need to read the manuals. All the information you're asking for is in there.

 

To get started, go to the owner's manual for the RD and read the following sections:

"Connecting External MIDI Devices" (page 101)

"Using the RD-700SX As a Master Keyboard" (page 60)

"Saving Settings to Setups" (page 58)

 

Hope that helps.

 

This.... simple midi connection, create your patches on each keyboard, and then have one board call the patch from the other. I have 4 keyboards linked up this way. Hit the patch number I want on my FA08, it changes my Hammond, Moog, and Ultranova. Like wineandkeyz said- it's prework at home to get it all going for the gig.

 

My one band takes literally a split second between songs- most of the time, the last drum hit of one song is the 1st note of the next. There's no way I could be fumbling around trying to pull up sounds on multiple boards.

[J. Dan]

Adding to that - every band I play with has a set list for the night, but it's not unheard of to call out something not on the list. So I have a set list for each band I play with that has every song I might play with them. The first 45 or whatever are the set list for that night, but the songs not in the list are in there after that, so if they call something on the fly, it's pretty easy to find. Every time I play with them, I just move around the set list, but all the songs are there.

[CEB]

That is what I do. With the Kronos it is so easy. Just go to the last page. Each page has 16 tunes listed on the touch screen. Korg setlist rocks. You can have 127 setlists.

 

I am so over Yamaha Master Mode.

[J. Dan]

Yeah, we have a lot of conversations on here about the best piano, the best organ, the best VA, whatever.......but you throw it all under the hood with that set list mode, and all of a sudden they're all good enough, lol!

[EscapeRocks]

Adding to that - every band I play with has a set list for the night, but it's not unheard of to call out something not on the list. So I have a set list for each band I play with that has every song I might play with them. The first 45 or whatever are the set list for that night, but the songs not in the list are in there after that, so if they call something on the fly, it's pretty easy to find. Every time I play with them, I just move around the set list, but all the songs are there.

 

 

That's exactly what I do. I use the Melas Librarian for my MOXF.

 

Once I put the song in setlist order, the ones not on the predetermined set are added to the end. That way I have ALL songs loaded in Master mode for those "just in case we do it" nights

 

Ahhhh..experience is wonderful things.

[bennyray]

CEB hit it outta the park the Kronos Setlist is so easy 127 programs per set list. Plug and play Combis, Programs, Samples, etc. all in Setlist Mode.

 

Not to worry cause the sounds are excellent also.

[icarusi]

A guitarist friend of mine had a midi rack system for his guitar. Once he realised his keyboard player had all his songs and changes programmed as midi program changes, he linked his system to the keys player's and every time the keys player made a program change, his guitar rack system would automatically change to follow.

[Bill Spencer]

I've always resisted the method of setting up special splits/setups for each song, and instead tried to always have 'instant' access to any sound on my 'boards. Worked great for many many years, but it's getting harder and harder. Few boxes anymore make it easy to go directly from one patch to any other patch without scrolling or changing banks, etc. This is one reason I love the Kurz because you can simply enter a number, then hit enter right when you need the patch change. But if you want to go from a program to a setup you have to switch 'modes' first so it's not seamless. I can't find any 49 note controller that lets me enter Bank/Program then send it with one button press so I can seamlessly change patches on the fly. VIs are terrible for this, you basically have to just set up different instruments on different channels, and that's pretty limited.

 

For this reason, I've finally given in and am using the Kurz's full-featured Setup mode to create setups for many tunes. Works great but not nearly as much fun- too difficult to try, say, a different brass patch on a tune to see if it works better...

 

Anyone else feel me on this?