When pro keyboards sound cheap through a PA System

[J. Dan]

It's probably not a coincidence that the ones posting about supplying stage plots, input lists, song lists, establishing a rapport, even buying a beer, are the ones who tend to have positive experiences with sound guys, and the ones saying they suck, my way or the highway, etc., largely have a poor experience with them.

[rickp]

It's probably not a coincidence that the ones posting about supplying stage plots, input lists, song lists, establishing a rapport, even buying a beer, are the ones who tend to have positive experiences with sound guys, and the ones saying they suck, my way or the highway, etc., largely have a poor experience with them.

+1 to that.

 

As for getting AP to sound better in FOH, I think my groups benefit from rehearsals running everything through a medium venue FOH system (Yamaha Club V 15s mains) with the mains turned around toward the group; EQ issues are more apparent (not only with keys) and patches can be built to FOH-type sound.

 

As for the original question, the best thing I've found for prepping AP for venue-supplied FOH though is to use an XLR-out mixer with sweepable mids as a DI and use separate channels for the left and right keyboard inputs for separate channel EQ to try to get most of the mud out; left channel for CP4 gets a bit of a boost of HF and 1.5-click drop in 250 mid and almost 1 click drop in LF; right channel gets a bit of boost of LF and 2-click drop in 300 mid; then I can ask the guy running FOH to just leave the AP EQ flat on his board if they've done a global EQ adjustment for the venue, and then focus on figuring out with him the L and R channel panning on his board based on the height and width of mains (seems to me that this can hugely impact AP sound, nearly as much as EQ, if panned too hard or too soft for the system being used).

 

 

[J. Dan]

You guys are getting really specific as to the remedies. While that may work great for you, every keyboard is different, and every sound system is different.

 

I prefer to prescribe a methodology rather than a recipe. But that's just me.

[Sven Golly]

I prefer to prescribe a methodology rather than a recipe. But that's just me.

 

Not just you, Brother Dan.

[rickp]

The OP was talking about a CP4 sounding boxy; specifics about what others may find useful for a CP4 seems to be one of the primary purposes of the thread.

 

I certainly appreciate reading (and often utilizing) specifics of the experiences of others in this forum; they've often been very useful.

 

And, there is a methodology underpinning the specifics that often may be useful too, even if the specifics vary in each individual's experience.

 

Yes, obviously, every keyboard is different and every sound system is different - so are playing styles and patch set-ups - but hopefully that doesn't become the general catch-all safe answer at the expense of sharing some specific information (and yes, by doing so, risking that someone may take issue with it) that may or may not be useful to someone else.

 

[cphollis]

Not to change topics here, but ...

 

When I'm being recorded, my keyboards always sound wonderfully pristine. Clear, crisp and plenty of character. I never, ever have had issues with recording engineers. Even the simplest recording rig produces predictably amazing results.

 

Wish I could say the same for some of the sound guys I've met.

[MAJUSCULE]

It's probably not a coincidence that the ones posting about supplying stage plots, input lists, song lists, establishing a rapport, even buying a beer, are the ones who tend to have positive experiences with sound guys, and the ones saying they suck, my way or the highway, etc., largely have a poor experience with them.

 

+100

 

I've had one experience with a shitty sound guy who ruined the gig. I may have only been playing out for seven or eight years, but I've seen waaaaay more incompetent, unprofessional and disrespectful players than sound engineers. That's not to say I haven't dealt with folks who didn't know their gear, or caused feedback, or whatever it could be. But 98% of the time, I think it's possible to smile, work whatever compromises need to happen, and then play the gig to the best your ability, in the best mood you can.

 

Remember, if you look pissed on stage, people will notice and it will affect your show. Perhaps even faster than they notice you being inaudible. And definitely faster than they will notice phasing issues of your mono/stereo sound or your manicured effects and patches. We're entertainers y'all. Work with your team and provide for the crowd.

[J. Dan]

It's never a bad idea to respect your fellow man.

[I-missRichardTee]

Im reading comments about making rapport with the sound guy, buying him beer, etc. Thats just seems so awkward. In a perfect world, shouldnt the sound guy approach you with a beer while trying to make rapport. After all, You are the artist, he is just a tech guy.. [/quote

 

Wow, Beautiful.. first AL Coda, now you, Sir.. very nice.. keep the political incorrectness coming.

[I-missRichardTee]

It's never a bad idea to respect your fellow man.

 

Tell that to the soundman

[Aidan]

The blues band I play in had a support gig at a medium-size venue the other night, opening for Band of Friends (basically Rory Gallagher's old band but obviously with a new guitarist since his untimely demise). The sound guy treated us like shit in the soundcheck (I had to ask four times to get ANY keys in my monitor) and obviously wanted it to be over ASAP.

 

Despite his behaviour, we remained polite and friendly to him throughout the night. There were still some monitoring problems during the set (drummer couldn't hear a damn thing) but everyone out front said he made us sound great. At the end of the evening, thoroughly thawed, he came up and gave us a desk recording (without being asked) and hung around for drinks. We listened to the CD on the way back and guess what? It sounded great.

 

As Sven says, there is absolutely no point in being adversarial to someone who, like you, is just trying to do his job to the best of his ability.

 

We did our job too which included setting up around the main act flexibly and with respect, playing to the best of our ability, getting our gear out of the way as quickly as possible and supporting the main act out front once our slot was over. Mission accomplished.

[Al Coda]

Q.E.D.

 

Give the musician the working environment and atmosphere he really deserves and all will work fine WHEN he himself has a professional attitude.

That said,- I´ve never seen a musician who didn´t care how he sounds and didn´t care about his gear.

Especially keyboardists normally introduce more tech knowledge and skills than others.

 

In fact, WHEN pro keyboards sound cheap thru a PA system, it is like it is.

 

You, as a musician are not the soundman and it´s also not your PA and the PA rental is also not the instance paying you as a musician.

There is no partner relationship.

They don´t have to do what you want and vice versa.

 

The crew guys are normally arrogant, they have work more or less always because they jump from gig to gig / tour to tour.

I very often hung out with ´em during nite after tour rehearsal days and when they started programming the lights.

Because a few became my friends, I rode on their niteliner too occasionally.

It fills a book reporting how they talk about musicians.

Did you ever listen to or recorded intercom during a running show?

Many of ´em dislike musicians and have absolutely no interest in music. They don´t care what kind of music will be performed. Others are frustrated former musicians.

 

As a musician, especially a keyboardist and when you´re not the M.D., you´re the last in line s##t for ´em.

You have to be "important" to be accepted,- when you´re not important in the ( or better their ) sense of hierarchie in rock ´n roll biz, you´re more or less lost.

 

I had the luck to be both, M.D. and/or keyboardist within about 30 years of working as a musician,- and it worked for me the way I did it.

You have to work hard to be accepted,- they want to see you do!

 

Buying beer and asskissing isn´t the right attitude, sorry.

 

A.C.

 

[Reezekeys]

I'm with Al. When I work with good sound companies, nobody has to kiss each other's ass or buy beers. "Be nice to me or I'll deliberately screw you over" is not the attitude either a band or a sound company should have when working together. It's simply the expectation that everyone conduct themselves and do their job on a professional level.

[ProfD]

Musicians shouldn't be divas. Frustrated musicians turned sound people shouldn't be jerks either.

 

There should be mutual respect both ways especially when everyone realizes they are getting paid to provide entertainment.

 

Now, if you all will excuse me, I'm heading over to the Goddard Space Flight Center.

 

Hopefully, they'll let me look through the Hubble telescope to see if I can find the perfect world.

[CEB]

If you suck you can't get work. No one wants to suck.

[Brettymike]

So after all this , it seems high on the cards that in post #1 scene #1 , the sandman was in a shit with the keyboardist? ...

 

Brett

[hardware]

Nothing more than digital stereo outs summed to mono.

It kills keyboards every time.

Of course the Guitar Bass and drums sounded fine,..........they are using line outs and a mic.

Guys like this should just buy an SSv3 and mic it using Mid/Side techniques.

[ProfD]

So after all this , it seems high on the cards that in post #1 scene #1 , the sandman was in a shit with the keyboardist? ...

 

Brett

I wasn't suggesting that at all. Some sound folks are biased. But, without talking to the guy, I have no idea of why the KBs didn't sound better in the mix.

 

[WesG]

By the way, my Seven Bad System Dwarves graphic says that Boxy lives around 480Hz.

 

And I will keep being nice to the sound man. Motivated team members are more useful to me that disinterested automatons. I especially like the guys who give me feedback about my sound, or who are interested in learning what I know about mixing organs. But if you want to continue hating sound men, don't let me stop you. Bring an extra 2,000W of monitor, set it up in the back line and point it at the audience. You can give him the finger during sound check, too. It's not my show.

 

Wes

[Brettymike]

Nothing more than digital stereo outs summed to mono.

It kills keyboards every time.

Of course the Guitar Bass and drums sounded fine,..........they are using line outs and a mic.

Guys like this should just buy an SSv3 and mic it using Mid/Side techniques.

 

That sounds like an excellent idea for sweet any keyboard sound! , get a SSv3 and mic it x2 - sent to FOH

 

Of course , you would have to watch out here if you are putting your vocals through the SS too, that would play havoc with the keyboard sound control at FOH.

 

Brett

[Joe Muscara]

Treating people right != kissing their ass.

 

If that's the way you see it, that's too bad.

[NewImprov]

I've done live sound in clubs and fairly large festivals for about 25 years, have played gigs on bass and/or keys for more than 30. I've seen the soundman vs band debate from both sides, and have seen the whole range of behaviors, both good and bad, from both parties.

 

I think my experience as a soundman has helped when I'm gigging. I know to bring my own DIs. I also have my system set up to adapt fairly easily between mono or stereo FOH. My default setup is mono, as is my monitor onstage, but if the FOH is stereo and the board has enough inputs, I can send stereo. I also send the FOH a separate signal from my monitor, that way I can adjust my onstage level without affecting what goes to the house.

 

To be honest, when I'm running sound, I'm pretty surprised at how many other keyboard players seem unprepared and clueless about how to sound good out front. They have no idea how to interface with our system. They'll send wildly fluctuating levels, which is really frustrating. I personally really, really want to make the keys sound good out front.

 

I've also seen a lot of bands who come into the room assuming that I'm an idiot because I'm running sound. Had a guy recently who had 3 stereo keyboards, no mixer, no DIs, and no monitor, he was depending on the house to hear himself onstage. The system at this club has a 16 channel board, and the house sound is mono. There was no way we could afford to spare 6 channels on the board, even the 3 we took to run his stuff in mono was a stretch, He was upset, and a bit arrogant when we couldn't accommodate him. This was a band with multiple vocals and a horn section. All night, he was demanding changes to his monitor mix, and his usual method to communicate was to scowl in my direction until I asked him what he needed.

 

Had the band sent an input list beforehand, we could have brought a 24 or 32 channel board. Or extra DIs, or a keyboard submixer. But they didn't. The rest of the band were pretty friendly, but the key guy seemed to have a chip on his shoulder from the very beginning. I did my best to make the band sound as good as I could, because, as I see it, my customers are the audience, and it's my job to make their evening as great as possible.

[Brettymike]

Well , they must be absolute beginners on their first gig.

Most keys men are switched on about all this stuff and more , and are very often the hardest working part of the band , and they don't want to be near drowned out in the band mix - as usual.

 

Brett

[Joe Muscara]

To be honest, when I'm running sound, I'm pretty surprised at how many other keyboard players seem unprepared and clueless about how to sound good out front. They have no idea how to interface with our system. They'll send wildly fluctuating levels, which is really frustrating. I personally really, really want to make the keys sound good out front.

I always watch the keyboard player, especially for local bands. I agree, lots of them have no clue how to interface. When I first did it, I had lots of info from this forum and asked loss of questions. I still talk to the sound guy and work with him and try to make it easy on him as well as myself.

 

But now that I think about it, the keyboard player is really usually the only person in the band that has this problem. Everyone else is miked. Guitar amps, drums, vocals, all miked. OTOH, modern keys don't make sounds without help of some sort. But, not every band has keys and so the sound tech doesn't often have to deal with it.

 

Ladies and gentlemen, we are different.

 

[Theo Verelst]

You've been had ? You can't play? The soundman doesn't like you ?

 

It's a plot, a conspiracy ?!?

 

T.

[Theo Verelst]

No it's a real matter that I've raised myself at times, but a bit out of context for what I do mean is realistic: of course a keyboard player likes to plug his board(s) in, play good, and be happy with the sound, while the audience is, too, and nobody is hurt.

 

On subject: treating instruments like pure "dumb" wav file playing romplers will sometimes do that. A lot of "live" things are hard to do right with samples alone, and maybe it should be that way. Of course in the studio/practice room, that's as well true, but "sound" coming out of the PA speakers or keyboard amp aren't going to be magically right because we have so called perfect digital samples we can play, no sir.

 

So there are many sound properties that will make the difference between a great room/hall filling mush together with pleasant identifiability of the various keyboard sound elements and a good intelligibility of chords and solo lines. And none of them are much discussed at technical level here, so I'm afraid that the subject is a bit over the head of most, unless the discussion here is trampled down by a small group, while the good players know a lot better!

 

Specifically, it's very thoughtful what some have written about their no doubt elaborate experience. There are some that have shown nice recordings of pro level live shows even, so no lack of talent or expertise, but I personally would like it if the real subjects were discussed, the signal properties that relate to PA systems and the various acoustic issues at hand. I can contribute some important digital signal considerations (as I have to an extend) and electronics considerations I doubt many people are aware of, here and elsewhere.

 

Of course there's the risk of hurting some people who planned the success and failure of the various technological/scientific issues involved, but I don't think that would be very bad.

 

An important explicit consideration: where does your sound power come from, i.e. could you have a LED or software bar graph somewhere that is a good measure of how much sound power you're feeding respectively your monitor, the first row, the main part of the room/hall you play in and the back of it? Some may have this in practice but for many it's probably an interesting idea to play with. Per frequency range or band is a good hint, but some questions even about simple loudness (and associated intelligibility of the type of sound and it's components) perception are pretty hard, and probably it's a good idea to include certain scientific generalities of the kind in the discussion, because the messing about in sound often is related to the loudness phenomenon.

 

T.V.

[JeffLearman]

the engineer should be treated like a member of the band

I like to treat them as though they're doing us a favor.

 

I had the reverse situation last week, where the guy had pretty mediocre gear, but made it sound great. It sounded better on stage than out front, since his mains seemed to be the weak points. The thing is, it seemed like he knew the limitations of his gear and didn't try to make it do what it couldn't do, and it all worked out.

 

For the last band, after the first tune he asked the bass player to turn up, and everyone on stage looked at him like he was nuts (really, even louder?) so he quickly rigged a line and added a bit to the subs, and for us out front it made all the difference.

[Redknife]

I think that the reason that there has been a focus on relationships rather than technical issues is because the technical issues are so vast that sounding good is not about one thing or another but rather a whole professional area. I know that early on I just focused on getting the right synth(s) and refining my playing. I gave little thought to the complex changing sound filter that is imposed live which can make a multi thousand dollar board sound like crap. I also didn't know how to pick or evaluate a sound man. Although I've learned a ton about sound reproduction, the most helpful thing I learned was to seek a talented sound man with good equipment. That takes money and effort but it's worth it.

 

I know that what I've said is all anectodal and lacks specific technical issues but I'd assert that the initial post is an observation of a common problem. The solution is a group of professionals, on their game and working together to deliver. Sometimes it still doesn't come out as well as you'd like. The details do matter but for keyboard sound in a group live setting, the details are comprised of all of sound generation and manipulation, IMHO. Vague and non-specific? Perhaps, but actionable nonetheless. Be a pro and get a pro.