Yamaha hasn't released a new flagship synth because ________

[J. Dan]

What keyboard specific signature sounds have been used extensively in modern music over the last 5-10 years that would prompt Yamaha to do the same thing again?

 

Interesting that no one has answered the question I posted. I didn't throw it out there as bait or anything, I don't know the answer either. But these latest posts are basically saying the answer is "nothing". It's been done, everything anybody would need to produce any kind of sound is already there and if it isn't it's available in a DAW with sound libraries.

 

Bob

 

First, is it about being able to mimic what's already out there, or having tools to create something unique?

 

I think there are sounds and effects that are used particularly in EDM that while achievable in the studio would be difficult to perform in a live hardware based environment. That would require more extensive use of formant filters, controls for slicing/chopping/bit crushing....tap tempos if you're trying to pull off all this truly live. Possibly additive synthesis? There's a lot of additive VI's but nothing I know of since the Kawai K5000 in hardware.

 

I think at this point the greatest advances can be made in user interface, performance controls, workflow, etc.

[ElmerJFudd]

The bottom line issue, to me, is really this: what can any of these companies do that hasn't already been done? I know, that's overly broad, but is granular synthesis or bigger DSP for a fancier physical modeling section going to set the field aflame?....So IMO, Yamaha sees no real market need for a new workstation at present, but remember those 3 mockups of smaller Yamaha synths that did PM, FM and etc.? It would be a far more sensible and profitable move to zag and offer those. That seems more practical and likely than any new big kahuna model.

 

The main issue I see with the Motif XF in the current market is that although it does have the largest array or waveforms packed into the biggest ROM to date... and it does have onboard sampling as well as expansion for multiple gigabytes of user samples... it does not give us access to any of Yamaha's synthesis engines of old, or those yet to be released. It essentially is devoid of that area of Yamaha's intellectual property. Yes, it has 18 filter types, 6 stage pitch, filter and amplitude envelopes, assignable modulation controls, etc. But at it's heart it is the mother-of-all-ROMplers.

 

By contrast, Korg with the Kronos has given their user base access to their entire range of synthesizer engines. Kurzweil includes KB3, VA-1/VAST.

 

I think Yamaha's user base/fans really want access to FM, VL, and AN engines.

 

Slightly off topic, Korg and Kurz have both moved on to multigigabyte piano sample libraries of the kind we are beginning to expect from VST/AU/AAX. This is not standard on Yamaha boards yet.

 

There is room for growth, there is always room for growth. On the other hand, if Yamaha concedes the high end of the market and sees more potential playing in the System-1, GAIA, microKORG, volca area. Maybe that's where their interest is pointed right now.

 

I sort of hope they are interested in both.

 

[dsetto]

I lack snark. Funny & wise things in this thread.

 

The XF can have 4GB of user multi-samples without perceptible latency. Plus a solid 740MB rom set. loaded up in 45 seconds, for the times that's a plus. And, 128MB sdram available for sampling and quick audition loading. That's not an instrument that is severely behind the times.

 

The synthesis component is simple, but useful. This limit steers instrument creation towards its strengths. (The composite whole.) It has a clear lay out for velocity control of key parameters. The thoughtful integration of the synthesis & sampling functions with the hardware buttons, wheel, & screen lends itself to being able to sound design while playing two-handed, sans computer. I.e., I can make quick adjustments with one hand in between phrases during sound design.

 

I really like my XF7's 76 tried & true FSX keys, in a 38lb board. They are quite, smooth, with quick return, and feel well balanced. Their shallow action is a drag for acoustic piano, but is terrific in a 2nd tier-tilted position, and for shallow action needs. They have a unique feel. I also like a traditional synth action feel that is deeper and has standard width keys. I like the raw sound of my XF-sampled Voyager as compared to the real thing. Right now, I'm struggling on how to bring life into the static nature of sampling, as compared to a polyphonic analog. But, I believe as I focus more on the strengths of sampling, I'll get there. But, it's a slow road for me. And even with this awareness, I don't want to sell it to replace it with another. I remain drawn to the versatility of a sampler workstation. (I like the linear/pattern based sequencer integration.) I like that I can put 2GB of my XF samples into a lightweight, low cost MOXF. I don't have that need today, but I am glad it exists.

 

It is not a VA, nor a Kronos/Kurzweil, nor a clone wheel, nor a poly analogue nor poly hybrid. I bought my XF7 after the original Kronos was announced, but before it was released. It is essentially my 1st workstation. As such, I'm still content with the Motif line and its capabilities. And, as the longer I'm with it, the deeper I get with it, for my way & needs, it suits me wonderfully, and switching it out for something else is likely not best for me. Theoretically, I wish it were 24-bit, 48k. But, I prefer 4gb without perceptible latency. And, with proper gain staging, I get what I desire. And 16-44.1 hasn't limited anybody.

 

If I was starting from scratch today, with no personal experience on the XF7, with all I know today, I would strongly consider the Kronos 2-61. And it seems wise to go for the VA's, clone wheel. I don't know what the sampling - synthesis integration is in the Kronos, but I suspect it would be on par with the XF7, or better. But, I remain drawn to my XF7, even in that hypothetical.

[CEB]

I am familiar with the XF. I own that new excuse of the Fantom. I think I am going to keep this Kronos. At the end of the day the XF does some great stuff sound wise. It is a killer board still.

[dsetto]

CEB, you're a mensch. Your balanced action 50-pound, Busch-Powered, VA-laden, EP modeled, sample power-house, vented Version 2 is a most wonderful do-it-all. And I hardly know it. Looking forward to reading about your journey with it.

[dsetto]

.

[burningbusch]

I don't think Yamaha is that far off with the technologies they are currently using. Borrow the APs and EPs from the CP1/5/4 and the Motif now is in the ballpark of the best of what's out there in hardware. Build in 4GB of flash RAM. Devote 3GBs to completely revamped samples, excellent electro-mechanicals (clavs/pianets, etc.) orchestral, acoustic guitars, etc. Of the 4GB, devote 3GB to these new internal sounds. Focus on making fewer sounds but of a much higher quality than typical ROMpler. Leave 1GB for user samples. Don't lose sleep over the multi-engine thing.

 

Busch.

[burningbusch]

Oh, and trim off some of the bulk. Be cognizant of the fact people don't want to carry around excess bulk nor have the space for it on their desks.

 

Busch.

[HammondDave]

But every year that goes by without Yamaha doing a major new w/s, I think it increases the chances that they will stand pat/do nothing. And not exceed what Korg has done. So we respectfully disagree with Yamaha speculation.

 

While I would love to see Yamaha return to its synthesis roots, this begs the question: Of you that own the Kronos, are you using it to it's fullest capability, 100% of it's functionality to the point where you need something that "exceed what Korg has done" from Yamaha?

 

It's getting to the point of absurdity really. What can't you do with the current crop of instruments that you need to do?

 

Very good point, Jim. I have been working with my Motif XS for five years now and I know I only use maybe 20% of its capabilities. Understand that I compose, sequence, and sample as well.

 

The only reason I could even fathom upgrading to an XF was for its' flash ram. And that would only benefit me by saving a few minutes on boot up. It was an easy decision to stay with what I have.

[MotiDave]

I do hope Yamaha concludes their next flagship needs to combine their modeling and rompler based technologies ... each updated and improved. ok, i'm assuming they already know they even need a new flagship.

 

I have no experience with SSD for real-time sample retrieval, can't comment on any latency or loading delays - have not heard any complaints. XF's flash technology functions great, but the disparity in capacity and cost ... I just don't know they can continue to hold onto ther XF approach as a future vision unless its expense and capacity are radically revised. I do love its "portability" - I've done many out of state gigs where they could backline an XF7 and all I take is a USB stick with my programs, and my flashcard. Up and running in 5 min or less. I don't know the equivalent ability for Kronos, for ex (never looked into it, as I alas have no Kronos).

 

My big recommend is don't get so caught up in technology that you forget usability. the days of market acceptance of complicated confused user interfaces are about over. Huge risk to not radically rethink this, or you'll risk only prior Motif Owners are willing to accept the next one. Its time to break free of the Motif's structure paradigms for usability, as Other brands are doing with their legacy flagships. TBD if Yammy has the vision and flexibility to break free. the larger the company, the harder this usually is.

 

Last one and I find it incredibly simple but its emblematic: Has any XF owner besides me tried to read the LCD screen at a sunny outdoor gig? how's that working for you, because I cannot read a thing. I bend down, remove sunglasses, put my eyes within inches of the screen, squint just right, and still have to guess based on what I expect I should see, because I'm still not sure by direct visual feedback what it displays.

 

I do like my XF7 alot ... sans organs and some synth manip abilities. its a great all around board if you're not in a B3 band imo.

[CEB]

CEB, you're a mensch. Your balanced action 50-pound, Busch-Powered, VA-laden, EP modeled, sample power-house, vented Version 2 is a most wonderful do-it-all. And I hardly know it. Looking forward to reading about your journey with it.

 

I did some nice stuff with Kronos pretty quickly but the file management sucks. I can't save my sample based work. Maybe it will make more sense in a few days. It is probably going to be some really simple oversight.

 

But the XF is great. It doesn't seem that long ago I gigged with a farfisa compact and a RMI Electra Piano.

[ElmerJFudd]

From what I'm hearing, the SSD in the Kronos stores everything and there is room for a 2nd. So massive space ($100 for 256gb dedicated to sample libraries). Re: Latency... What do you Kronos guys feel about performance with direct disc streaming. Hmm also, I'm thinking you probably need to back up these samples on your computer if SSD fails. It would be nice to have Korg provide a software suite for creating sample libraries in their format on Mac/PC. I build most of mine in EXS24... I hear the Kronos reads Akai format at least.

 

Back to Yamaha...

Motif XF... flash ram costs $375 for 1gb on proprietary card. Not horrible, but clearly SSD has become more cost effective.

By stark contrast... to upgrade with Nord you have to sell your Stage 2 and get a Stage 2 EX (so sale price plus additional $1000-$1500 out of pocket to add 512mb of flash RAM. Ouch!).

Kurzweil I haven't quite figured out yet. There is a slot for flash RAM, but you have to choose wether you want to gig with that or pull it to use their latest pianos? Or is that not on the Forte and only true on the PC3KA? Is there an SSD in the Forte? There must be, no? Can users store sample libraries on it? I don't see any proprietary expansion options on the site or on Sweetwater.

 

So yeah, anyway. The Motif was a great ROMpler from the beginning, still is, and has decent tech for user sample options. SSD is likely next step for them.

 

But like I mentioned earlier... would love to see them include some of those synth engines (from the PLGs) we already had and lost when upgrading from the ES to the XS, and then XF.

 

Oh, Good luck to CEB on the learning curve getting into his shiny new Kronos!

[dsetto]

I did some nice stuff with Kronos pretty quickly but ...

You just got it! And you're already rocking and rolling. It's a new language, with new idioms. Luckily, you've got primo support here and at korgforums.

... a farfisa compact and a RMI Electra Piano.

Maybe that should be my 1st XF pursuit. In all humorous honesty.

[CEB]

I like the Farfisa. I wouldn't wish the RMI on anybody.

[Jazzmammal]

Any of you guys following the Messe thread? That and the recent NAMM show pretty much tells us where the market is going. Nothing new in big keyboards. It's all modular synths, studio production toys and software. Just listen to the demo music they're using. I think we're in the middle of a big demographic shift and have been for years now. Nothing happens overnight but most here who are talking about a big new workstation type of keyboard are 'mostly' older classic rock types and 15-25 years ago it certainly was all about us. It us older guys who give a rip about the weight, the young cats don't care.

 

Classic rock/blues/jazz was the bread and butter of these boards. That scene is fading out, Yamaha sees it and is thinking twice about bringing out a new $3,000+ stage keyboard.

 

Bob

[dsetto]

Likely tainted by hope, I don't think so. Old fashions return. The keyboard staples remain. Synthesis has thankfully returned strong. Shed weight is attractive to all. ... supports dual board rigs better. ... But, yeah, the sequence-driven knob tweaking has grown. A positive evolution from DJ mentality. Eventually, humanity wants a say. And then, another keyboardist is born.

[burningbusch]

Any of you guys following the Messe thread? That and the recent NAMM show pretty much tells us where the market is going. Nothing new in big keyboards. It's all modular synths, studio production toys and software. Just listen to the demo music they're using. I think we're in the middle of a big demographic shift and have been for years now. Nothing happens overnight but most here who are talking about a big new workstation type of keyboard are 'mostly' older classic rock types and 15-25 years ago it certainly was all about us. It us older guys who give a rip about the weight, the young cats don't care.

 

Classic rock/blues/jazz was the bread and butter of these boards. That scene is fading out, Yamaha sees it and is thinking twice about bringing out a new $3,000+ stage keyboard.

 

Bob

 

I don't disagree. But notice Yamaha isn't playing in that space at all. Roland is more or less mimicking Korg's approach with VAs and RAs and little, inexpensive modular units. Look at Roland and Korg websites and then compare to Yamaha. Roland/Korg are clearly marketing to a younger crowd. Yamaha markets to the traditional player. So if Yamaha sees that scene fading out (which I don't disagree, it clearly is going away), what the hell are they going to be selling?

 

Busch.

[Jazzmammal]

As posted earlier:

 

Yamaha CEO Pleased With Current Production Of Jet Skis, Alto Saxophones, Snowmobiles, Power Generators, Scooters, Golf Carts

 

Not to mention motorcycles, Clavinova's, arrangers, AP's, school band instruments, and who knows what else. If they never made another pro level stage keyboard I doubt it would bother them much. It all depends on their commitment to it and where the bean counters think the market is going.

 

Bob

[mate stubb]

I like the Farfisa. I wouldn't wish the RMI on anybody.

 

[Jim Alfredson]

I have to admit that I still lust after an XF6 or XF7. They are such beautiful machines.

[dsetto]

That Onion piece was hilarious. Based on the quality of the XF, the solid new yamahasynth.com support/marketing push, & the recent 40 years of synth plug, I feel a new Yamaha flagship music production synthesizer is likely. They seem to be a strong company, and I believe they have had a strong presence in this arena from its relative beginning. I don't see the recent release lag as an indication to the contrary. The Kronos has been loud. I find the many interpretations of the keyboard synthesizer - by all the makers- to be fascinating. In the recent generations, Yamaha's interpretation has focused on sampling, following in the spirit of trying to emulate a real instrument. Busch's suggestions would be great. Deeper synthesis would be great.

 

On a side note, I wonder if Mutec's 2GB flash memory card affected a little bottom-line reassessment in a successor. The Mutec card has surely benefited today's XF/MOXF series. Having seen the hardware MPC disappear, and the Fantom G not be succeeded, I do agree a stalwart today can cease. But, that's not my feeling with Yamaha's flagship synthesizer. But, I'm tainted, as I'm too close to the current one.

[HammondDave]

Any of you guys following the Messe thread? That and the recent NAMM show pretty much tells us where the market is going. Nothing new in big keyboards. It's all modular synths, studio production toys and software. Just listen to the demo music they're using. I think we're in the middle of a big demographic shift and have been for years now. Nothing happens overnight but most here who are talking about a big new workstation type of keyboard are 'mostly' older classic rock types and 15-25 years ago it certainly was all about us. It us older guys who give a rip about the weight, the young cats don't care.

 

Classic rock/blues/jazz was the bread and butter of these boards. That scene is fading out, Yamaha sees it and is thinking twice about bringing out a new $3,000+ stage keyboard.

 

Bob

 

I don't disagree. But notice Yamaha isn't playing in that space at all. Roland is more or less mimicking Korg's approach with VAs and RAs and little, inexpensive modular units. Look at Roland and Korg websites and then compare to Yamaha. Roland/Korg are clearly marketing to a younger crowd. Yamaha markets to the traditional player. So if Yamaha sees that scene fading out (which I don't disagree, it clearly is going away), what the hell are they going to be selling?

 

Busch.

 

Very interesting points. I have to agree that Yamaha is pretty much staking out the high end, but so many younger musicians are going for tweaking cheaply made keyboards that sound "pretty good".

 

Look at Mainstage, hundreds of great sounds for $29! Look at the VR09 (yes Craig, I had to bring it up). Young (and older) keyboardists compromise playing a super crappy keyboard (IMHO) so that Roland can keep the street price under $1K.

 

And who needs sampling or sequencing when you can do it all on your iPad with a few inexpensive APs? It's only a matter of time when you can accomplish most of what you can do on a hardware workstation with an iPad.

 

I hope that Yamaha stays in the mix with a new workstation... same for Korg and Roland. Personally, I prefer to work behind a powerful full sized workstation with an excellent keyboard and quality switches, buttons and faders. The problem is that most of the musicians in the money spending demographic prefers value, and will compromise ergonomics.

[ElmerJFudd]

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/pichosterforme/AgePole.jpg

 

I have a theory on this pole. I think the shape of this bar graph generally doesn't change based on the idea that the guys who are 20-40 are way too busy gigging for nothing and getting l@id to bother with this forum. When the steady paying gig shows up and you settle down and have kids, you can afford the rig and you might be drawn to a place like this to chat with guys you run into less and less as your time is very prioritized.

 

Rig wise, we definitely have seen a shift in what younger players and the mass market can afford to drop on a keyboard. Casio has killed it the last few years with that PX-5S's feature to price point + weight. And synthesis is back in a big way. The kids are very interested in that and the term ROMpler has become something they want to avoid at all costs... like that's their Dad's rig. On the other hand, they are also finding all these cool DW-8000's, DX7s, Juno 106s, etc. on eBay in reach. Actually, enough so that they are rising in asking price!

 

I think Yamaha is very aware of this, hence the big push lately about their 40 year synth history, and we are likely to see synths (analog and/or VA) from them very soon.

 

I'll tell you what though, we are small potatoes compared to guitars these days. And this is a trend I would sure'd like to see change.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/pichosterforme/JapanDigital-1.jpg

 

On the other hand sales of synths in the US is pretty steady.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/pichosterforme/US%20Keyboard%20Synth.jpg

 

Curious about what the kids are into, poke around on Reddit

Check out these conversations:

synthesizers/Reddit

 

[dsetto]

I have to admit ...

You know Yamaha can't do B3?

[Michael W]

Curious about what the kids are into, poke around on Reddit

 

Or just go over to the Electronic Music Instruments and Music Production forum over at Gearslutz. The place is largely populated with "bedroom producers" who are making (or trying to make) EDM and other various flavors of electronic music. Although there are exceptions, most are not piano or keyboard players such as are largely found here. Many view keyboards as devices where you press black and white buttons and various sounds and noises come out. A minority are into romplers, and even fewer are into digital pianos or organs. Analog synths - vintage and new - rule the day, although there are some strong believers in software. While the guys over at Gearslutz indeed buy a lot of gear, my guess is that the percentage of them who'd purchase a new model Motif would be in the single digits. Very low.

 

All that said, they don't represent the entire global keyboard market. But with prices in the $2.5-$3.5K range, how many players really need to plunk down that kind of money to replace their perfectly good ES, XS, XF, Kronos, etc.?

 

[Brettymike]

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/pichosterforme/AgePole.jpg

 

I have a theory on this pole. I think the shape of this bar graph generally doesn't change based on the idea that the guys who are 20-40 are way too busy gigging for nothing and getting l@id to bother with this forum. When the steady paying gig shows up and you settle down and have kids, you can afford the rig and you might be drawn to a place like this to chat with guys you run into less and less as your time is very prioritized.

 

Rig wise, we definitely have seen a shift in what younger players and the mass market can afford to drop on a keyboard. Casio has killed it the last few years with that PX-5S's feature to price point + weight. And synthesis is back in a big way. The kids are very interested in that and the term ROMpler has become something they want to avoid at all costs... like that's their Dad's rig. On the other hand, they are also finding all these cool DW-8000's, DX7s, Juno 106s, etc. on eBay in reach. Actually, enough so that they are rising in asking price!

 

I think Yamaha is very aware of this, hence the big push lately about their 40 year synth history, and we are likely to see synths (analog and/or VA) from them very soon.

 

I'll tell you what though, we are small potatoes compared to guitars these days. And this is a trend I would sure'd like to see change.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/pichosterforme/JapanDigital-1.jpg

 

On the other hand sales of synths in the US is pretty steady.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/pichosterforme/US%20Keyboard%20Synth.jpg

 

Curious about what the kids are into, poke around on Reddit

Check out these conversations:

synthesizers/Reddit

 

Gosh , I wonder why things started to plummet after 2008? , Oh look, no figures after 2013 because they would be off the graph down in the basement.

 

Brett

[Song80s]

 

 

 

Gosh , I wonder why things started to plummet after 2008? , Oh look, no figures after 2013 because they would be off the graph down in the basement.

 

Brett

 

We had a nasty recession in the US in 2008/09. It likely changed some discretionary spending.

[Brettymike]

^^^ Thank you for telling me what I already know

Also change "had" to "have"....

 

Brett

[Bif_]

I don't think Yamaha has abandoned high-end workstations. I'm sure there's a strategy behind their lack of a new model.

 

And not to start a XF versus Kronos battle, but there's plenty of things the XF does very well and in some cases better than Kronos (guitars for one). The Motif arps are a huge wealth of inspiring music content that help fill in parts for songs in instrument-specific styles or be used to create an arranger-like experience. The build quality of the Motif series is top notch (my Motif ES is still in primo condition and a joy to play).

 

Yamaha could do quite a bit with bread and butter sounds to improve the line (organs, piano's, orchestral/string stuff, and certainly improve the user interface.

 

Kronos is very cool. I would love to buy one but have no justification to do so. It's not perfect anyway, but certainly has a unique feature set.

 

I don't think this is a situation where Yamaha has thrown in the towel and abdicated the high-end workstation stuff to Korg.

 

The MOXF series is probably selling very well for Yamaha now anyway. But if there's no high-end product, there won't be a lower featured trickle-down product. Another reason I think they'll be back at it with an impressive synth.

[Song80s]

I don't think Yamaha has abandoned high-end workstations. I'm sure there's a strategy behind their lack of a new model.

 

 

yep, hope springs eternal. There is always next year, etc.

 

If this is the prevailing gut feel, that could be a reason to not buy the XF .