Recording a live performance

[tomson]

I play with a marvelous female vocalist who does some fiddling. We use two mics, the piano, and a pickup for the fiddle. I recorded our last performance using the monitor out of the PA and into a Lambda Lexicon box, but that setup doesn't give me any mixing capabilities afterward. What's the best, and cheapest, way to run everything into the LL so they record on separate tracks? Can I just use Y cables to split everything and run them into the PA (Yamaha StagePass 600i) and the LL independently? I'm not very familiar with all the gizmos that are out there. Thanks for your help, Tom

 

Tom Murphy

Norwich NY

[Mogut]

another trick for analog mixing boards is run each "insert" to your audio interface..... make sure you use a TRS cable for return audio

 

this gives you independent channel availability for mixing at least... however all processing you do on the mixer is bypassed

[Ken Beaumont]

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/T8/

 

This will eliminate any ground loop noise and allow you to connect everything into both the lexicon and StagePass at the same time.

[Mogut]

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/T8/

 

This will eliminate any ground loop noise and allow you to connect everything into both the lexicon and StagePass at the same time.

 

Awesome! Learn something new everyday

[JeffLearman]

Unfortunately, the Lambda will record only 2 signals at a time. (see page 35 in the manual)

 

You need a multichannel interface.

[JeffLearman]

another trick for analog mixing boards is run each "insert" to your audio interface..... make sure you use a TRS cable for return audio

Actually, you want to use a TS cable and push it only halfway into the Insert jack.

 

Another option is to use a cable that's 1/4" TS on one end and RCA on the other, and a "stereo-to-RCA" adaptor connector on the RCA end. That seems silly, but it does the exact right thing: it connects T to R and sends the connected signal to R on the other end of the cable.

 

I suggested to Hosa that they make cables like this (TRS on one end, TS on the other), and they said they'd consider it, but never did. They're probably right too, people seem to dense to realize how useful they'd be. Or they'd rather use a normal TS cable and plug it halfway in.

[PianoMan51]

Multitrack digital recorders are out of fashion and cheap. For example, an eight-input Yamaha AWG16g for $200.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-AW16G-Digital-Multitrack-Recorder-/281379446784?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Multi_Track_Recorders&hash=item418385a000

 

Use this, or one of many others, as your combination mixing board and recorder. Each input has it's own EQ/Fx/etc. Feed the output to you PA.

[JeffLearman]

Multitrack digital recorders are out of fashion and cheap. For example, an eight-input Yamaha AWG16g for $200.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-AW16G-Digital-Multitrack-Recorder-/281379446784?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Multi_Track_Recorders&hash=item418385a000

 

Use this, or one of many others, as your combination mixing board and recorder. Each input has it's own EQ/Fx/etc. Feed the output to you PA.

Good idea!

[Mogut]

another trick for analog mixing boards is run each "insert" to your audio interface..... make sure you use a TRS cable for return audio

Actually, you want to use a TS cable and push it only halfway into the Insert jack.

 

not familiar with this trick.... are you suggesting if the ring is not engaged the insert will continue to allow audio bypass?

 

 

all ive ever known was a trs will send the audio and return it... if no audio returns, nothing will route any further in the mixer

 

 

 

[JeffLearman]

The half-inserted trick takes advantage of the default connection between T and R: if you don't push it in all the way, that connection isn't broken. Shield still connects, and Tip connects to the T+R on the jack's R contact. Might be fiddly, might not be an ideal connection, especially with dirty plugs.

 

all ive ever known was a trs will send the audio and return it

I'm pretty sure you're misremembering something.

 

With TRS end-to-ed, it fails in one of two ways. If the input (at the other end) is unbalanced and the jack has only T and S contacts (which is typical), then the send never gets passed back to the return.

 

If the input at the other end and is balanced, then it's even more fouled up. I'd have to think it through, but I doubt it would be useful. I think it would depend on the type of balancing circuit.

 

In order for TRS to work, the input on the recorder would need to short T to R. What kind of input does that? None that I know of! Imagine what would happen if you used a TS plug at that end: it would short T to S (since the R contact would be touching S).

[Mogut]

Another option is to use a cable that's 1/4" TS on one end and RCA on the other, and a "stereo-to-RCA" adaptor connector on the RCA end. That seems silly, but it does the exact right thing: it connects T to R and sends the connected signal to R on the other end of the cable.

 

half plugged in as well?

[JeffLearman]

Another option is to use a cable that's 1/4" TS on one end and RCA on the other, and a "stereo-to-RCA" adaptor connector on the RCA end. That seems silly, but it does the exact right thing: it connects T to R and sends the connected signal to R on the other end of the cable.

 

half plugged in as well?

Nope. The TRS is pushed all the way in. The TRS-to-RCA adaptor shorts T and R. I have bunches of TRS-to-RCA adaptors just for this purpose. (I also have a couple RCA snakes from the bad old days of analog.)

 

Maybe this should be a new thread.

[Mogut]

The half-inserted trick takes advantage of the default connection between T and R: if you don't push it in all the way, that connection isn't broken. Shield still connects, and Tip connects to the T+R on the jack's R contact. Might be fiddly, might not be an ideal connection, especially with dirty plugs.

 

With TRS end-to-ed, it fails in one of two ways. If the input (at the other end) is unbalanced and the jack has only T and S contacts (which is typical), then the send never gets passed back to the return.

 

If the input at the other end and is balanced, then it's even more fouled up. I'd have to think it through, but I doubt it would be useful. I think it would depend on the type of balancing circuit.

 

In order for TRS to work, the input on the recorder would need to short T to R. What kind of input does that? None that I know of! Imagine what would happen if you used a TS plug at that end: it would short T to S (since the R contact would be touching S).

 

the couple of audio interfaces i used in the passed with this trick have always returned the signal back to the mixer using TRS to TRS

 

great info tho.... really interesting

[JeffLearman]

Oboy, here's another adaptor:

 

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103725

 

However, these would be prone to being bent due to leverage, so take care with them. The 17 cent cost must be a typo. $1.70 would be a great price.

 

the couple of audio interfaces i used in the passed with this trick have always returned the signal back to the mixer using TRS to TRS

I can't imagine how that could possibly work.

[Mogut]

Oboy, here's another adaptor:

 

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103725

 

However, these would be prone to being bent due to leverage, so take care with them. The 17 cent cost must be a typo. $1.70 would be a great price.

 

the couple of audio interfaces i used in the passed with this trick have always returned the signal back to the mixer using TRS to TRS

I can't imagine how that could possibly work.

 

 

Ok so this is the model audio interface I was using one of the times http://tascam.com/product/us-800/specifications/ This one is good to talk about as an example because I ran into a problem. The 2 front inputs (a combo xlr/1/4") are labeled mic/inst. These did not work, they did not return audio to the insert plug.

 

The 4 in the back are labeled mic/line, they did return audio back to the insert plug.

 

I did not understand the science behind that, because I would have thought a inst input was just a HiZ input and the line was a Lo-Z input end of story. Evidently the mic/line input had more to it than that.

 

Thanks for letting me pick your brain, and setting me straight on this topic.

 

Greg

[NeverTooLate]

Another option is to use a mixer with built-in per-channel recording capabilities. (Mackie Onyx-i, Phonic Helix Board, many digital mixers, ...)

[Baldwin Funster]

I would forget at all the multitrack headaches. In the end nobody except a pro mobile studio does that. Get a decent hand held Zoom H4 or whatever, find a spot near the middle or back of the venue and just record the sound in the bar. If it sounds good to the ear the recorder will get the same mix. Trying to set up multichannel interfaces, parallel signal paths, get levels on every line ect ect ect ect..... It will ruin your mind for playing the gig if you have to play too.

[JeffLearman]

I would forget at all the multitrack headaches. In the end nobody except a pro mobile studio does that. Get a decent hand held Zoom H4 or whatever, find a spot near the middle or back of the venue and just record the sound in the bar. If it sounds good to the ear the recorder will get the same mix. Trying to set up multichannel interfaces, parallel signal paths, get levels on every line ect ect ect ect..... It will ruin your mind for playing the gig if you have to play too.

No kidding -- it's not easy wearing too many hats! But still, it's possible, and something like PianoMan's suggestion is probably the least headache.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-AW16G-Digital-Multitrack-Recorder-/281379446784?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Multi_Track_Recorders&hash=item418385a000

 

If you do that, consider also sticking a mic out front (or better yet, a stereo pair) to record how the show sounds to the audience. You'll learn a lot about how well you're mixing things on stage, and the ambience can be very useful when mixing in the end. Of course, you'll have to use a delay (or slide the ambient track left in the timeline) to compensate for distance.

[tomson]

Thanks all, for the advice and the education. I now understand what it means to say an input is "balanced."

Learjeff and Kas really hit on a problem I have, balancing sound from the stage while keeping my mind on my work, which is playing the piano. I do get distracted.

This last time out, I asked several times if the vocals were coming through ok and was assured they were. But when I listened to the recording, they weren't really as prominent as I wanted them to be. Maybe that's the value in NOT being able to manipulate the levels on the recording. I can hear it the way the audience did and make adjustments for next time. Maybe I'll even be smart enough to put some reverb on the vocals next time. It's a learning process.

OTOH, we need a quality recording, and we are much more "on" when we're live than when we're trying to record in the "studio", er, living room.

[PianoMan51]

tomson,

 

Besides getting an unnecessary master's degree in TRS insert jacks, you've come to the realization that more control over a recording means you have to control more stuff. Yeah! Yeuch!

 

If you want a nice live recording to share with fans, then my suggestion about the AWG16 or other digital multitrack recorders holds. Feeding each sound into its own channel on a recorder will get you better results than sticking a mic into the audience. And yes, I own an AWG. If you go this way, I suggest you find somebody else to do the work of running the recorder. I do this myself, but is is a PITA to try to start/stop recording, watch levels, etc. while trying to perform.

 

If, on the other hand, you want a reasonable recording to suss out the band's overall sound, then go with a handheld stereo recorder, or even something like this, which captures both audio and video:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-HDR-MV1-Music-Video-Recorder/dp/B00EVIBMR2

 

For this, set it and forget it. Oh wait, that's Popeil!

 

 

[JeffLearman]

I have a Tascam DR-40 that I like a lot. You can find it for $140 on ebay, and it records two channels using the built-in mics, or you can use external mics, or you can record 4 channels at once (two from the built-in mics and two external, either line or mic).

 

A nifty feature is that you can record in stereo and use the other two channels to record 12dB lower, in case you goof setting the levels. (It has auto-level, but don't use that for recording a gig.)

 

It's pretty much the same thing as the Zoom H2N, but a smaller package and cheaper. They sound the same to my ears. The Zoom has some features that make it much better if you're a songwriter and want to do some 4-tracking on the road, or if you're an electric guitarist (built-in guitar amp/cab models).

 

I did not understand the science behind that, because I would have thought a inst input was just a HiZ input and the line was a Lo-Z input end of story. Evidently the mic/line input had more to it than that.

No, as it turns out, it was the difference between balanced and unbalanced. The front-panel 1/4" jacks are unbalanced; the back ones are balanced. As it turns out, balanced jacks will pass from T to R (or vice versa) but attenuated. You may not have noticed it, but you'd have had to turn the gain up higher on the mixer. So, higher noise level at a minimum. Plus that's not how the circuit is designed to operate so who knows what else.

 

Fortunately, signals these days tend to be pretty damn good, so I doubt it made a notable dent in the recording quality. But I'd advise against it in the future. Also, you'd get different results with different circuits (different products).

 

Regarding inst vs line vs mic: mic inputs are low-Z (usually -- there are hi-Z mics but we musicians don't bother with them). Guitar amp inputs are hi-z as in 250 kOhms or so, to match passive guitar pickups.

 

Line inputs are also called "hi-Z" compared to mics, and can be anywhere from 4K to 20K Ohms. A line output is designed not to care, as long as it's over some minimum, and these days the minimum is so low they don't even bother to specify it.

 

For your Tascam, the instrument inputs are 1MOhm, which is in the ballpark and is fine (and there are cases when 1M is better, which I don't recall, but I think it relates to unbuffered piezo pups). It's line inputs are 15K, and mic inputs are 2.2K -- higher than I'd want, but fine.

[J. Dan]

You could always go old school.

 

http://www.drpatala.com/siuronsuisto/equipment/fostex.jpg

 

[PianoMan51]

You could always go old school.

 

http://www.drpatala.com/siuronsuisto/equipment/fostex.jpg

 

 

If you're into wow and flutter and noise!

[midinut]

I had a Zoom R24 that would do the trick as well (8 XLR inputs). I sold it recently for $300 just because it wasn't being used. It would have been perfect for recording a band (so long as drums were sub mixed). The Yamaha AWG is along these same lines. I would also recommend having someone else do the starts, stops, monitoring, etc. if possible.

 

A more expensive but even better option would be something like a Steinberg UR828 or MOTU interface and a laptop. More complex but more possibilities too.

 

Just throwing it out there ...

[midinut]

I had a Zoom R24 that would do the trick as well (8 XLR inputs). I sold it recently for $300 just because it wasn't being used. It would have been perfect for recording a band (so long as drums were sub mixed). The Yamaha AWG is along these same lines. I would also recommend having someone else do the starts, stops, monitoring, etc. if possible.

 

A more expensive but even better option would be something like a Steinberg UR828 or MOTU interface and a laptop. More complex but more possibilities too.

 

Just throwing it out there ...

[Baldwin Funster]

You need more than 8 inputs . You'd need at least 8 for drums alone. Without isolation you have no idea what you are recording . It's like trying to take a great picture without seeing where to point the camera. If it was as easy as just recording your mics and lines coming in from the stage everybody would have awesome demos from every gig. This completely overlooks the necessity for a skilled recordist. Nobody usually listens to this advice the first time. Nobody tries again . It's like staging a Broadway play during an important wedding ceremony. Even if you have help riding levels it will be the worst 12 hours you have had all year. And forget playing well if you head up the effort. Sorry for the negative input but been there done that. Take a tip from a deadhead. Record gigs in stereo with a very tall stereo mic boom and be done with it.

[JeffLearman]

4 mikes can do an excellent job of recording a drum kit, using kick, snare, and stereo overhead pair. I prefer that to individual miking. There is a trick to it, though. Of course, it depends on the sound you're going for. If the sound of individual miking is what you want, then there's only one way to get it.

 

Assuming you want kick and snare in the center of the image, when placing the overheads, make sure that a plane including kick and snare is the center dividing plane for the overhead stereo pair. It's not the intuitive left/right orientation for the overheads. It takes a little visualization skills at first, but it becomes second nature pretty quickly. This avoids problems when mixing the 4 down to stereo, as the image of kick and snare in the overheads won't cause conflicts.

 

Back in the day, I used to record gigs using a Sony Walkman Pro using a mic close to the stage and a feed from FOH. The result on a typical stereo was way better than you'd expect. You could easily use the "balance" knob to level out the mains versus the stage mic. The resulting image was surprisingly live and warm and fun to listen to, and you could easily tell when FOH was messing up. But it wasn't the kind of mix you could distribute or use as a demo.

 

If we want to talk more about recording a full band, we should start a separate thread. Tomsen doesn't have drums, and 4 channels is fine for what he's doing, though 6 would be even better to include a stereo room pair (and also as a gig sound check). Results may not be good enough for a demo.

 

In any case, there shouldn't be gain riding of recorded channels during a gig. With 24-bit soundcards, you can leave enough headroom that it isn't necessary. Any gain-riding during recording causes more headaches during mixdown. Obviously, if a channel is clipping you have to reduce it. The point is to get it right in the first place, which is easy enough: leave 12 to 18 dB of headroom.

 

But Kas is right that for recording a full band live, you want someone dedicated to that task, unless you have literally hours to set up. And 8 channels is rarely enough to record a band, especially one with keyboards.

 

If you record a gig, leave it running. Stop it during breaks only. Deal with chopping it later. That's a pain, but it's less pain than fiddling with a recorder during a gig. More important is to get the musicians to be professional in the starts and stops, with no noodling during either. You'd think that'd be a given, but unless you're working with real pros it can be difficult to rein them in. When recording practices for my soul band I had a hard time getting all 8 people to NOT SAY ANYTHING about how good or bad a take was until there was silence!

[tomson]

Wow. Thanks, everyone, for taking the time to give me so much information. There's a lot more to think about than I knew. You've all expanded my previously narrow horizons. Thanks. Tom

 

Tom Murphy

Norwich, NY

[Mogut]

+1 to the field recorder suggestion. I use the TASCAM DR-07mkII http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DR07mk2/

 

....the results are way beyond what you expect from such a device

 

http://tascam.com/content/images/universal/misc/dr-07mk2_front.jpg

 

 

 

 

[WesG]

Kas, you can do a good job recording with fewer-than-ideal inputs. Neil Young's Live Rust album was recorded live to *two* tracks.

 

I have been planning to get a Zoom R16 or R24 for the 8 inputs. That will do a decent job. Not as ideal as a studio recording....but still decent.

 

- Keys sub-mix (from keys rack)

- Drum sub-mix (mixer subgroup)

- Kick

- Bass

- Lead Vocals

- Backing Vocals sub-mix (mixer subgroup)

- Guitar 1

- Guitar 2