New upright pianos?

[dazzjazz]

Hi,

Has anyone bought a new upright piano recently?

I'm thinking about it, and played a Yamaha YUS5 today, top of the range. Very nice sound and action. Some of the new Kawai pianos are nice too. I've also played a W Hoffman.

Would like to hear from you if you've been through the decision making process lately.

[Keysguy]

Its a very difficult process. So many variables. I went throught it about 10 years ago. Shopped for almost two years and just kept getting more confused. I wanted new but also looked at used and went to every piano showroom in Northern NJ including a very reputable rebuilder. I guess the first step is budget and from then on just play them and go with what "speaks" to you. The used market is a great way to get a bargain as people sometimes just want to get rid of the piano, but take a technician with you. On two occasions I found a new pianos I liked. One was a Kohler and Campbell. I found out it was made by Samick. Second one was an Altenberg. Altenberg's is a large piano house in NJ who used to make their own pianos but now has Samick put their name on them. This is now common practice in the piano world, with manufactures putting different lables on their products.

I got a 54" Studio Millenium upright, gloss black,w/redwood trim. Played and looked bueatiful. Paid in cash and got a fantastic deal.

Forget the names and sales hype and just play them and shop till you drop. Good luck.

[Jazz+]

I have 2 students who have been shopping for Yamaha uprights (YUS5, U3, U1)

One of them bought a new YUS5 6 months ago per my recommendation. He got it for $11,500 plus tax. I have another student who has YUS5 also from about 6 years ago. I think it sounds better , but it could be because of the different rooms and the tuners...

[Doerfler]

Darren -

I bought a 52" Kawai upright 2 years ago. It is a joy to play, the action is wonderfull and the tone is a little darker than the Yamaha uprights. Darker and moody is my preference. I also have a 5' Winter Grand piano. I prefer playing the upright, although it will never sing like a grand. Allan Evett bought a Kawai upright recently, hopefully he will chime in at some point. He had a thread about it not too long ago, did a quick search but didn't find it. I have had 2 other list members play my upright and they both liked it. OK, I'll stop now.

[tsaub]

I completely agree with Keys. Tons of variables. Even playing the piano where you are purchasing is against the room where the piano will eventually reside. Just play a lot, and don't be afraid of what you like. Nobody wants to get ripped off, but don't be afraid of purchasing an off brand if you love the action and tone. If the piano is in good condition and fairly priced, then go for it. I love upright pianos. Enjoy the hunt, and you will know when it is the one.

[Michael W]

I spent a year shopping for a new upright about ten years ago. Agonizing process.

 

I made the 'mistake' early on of playing a Bechstein Concert 8, which was just a phenomenal piano. It was also around $25K, and waaay out of my budget. But I still found myself comparing everything else against it.

 

I also played a smattering of Steinway K52s, a couple of which were wonderful, a couple of which were not. They were also too pricey for me.

 

Then there was the August Förster 125G, which was a gorgeous instrument both sonically and visually (it had the medallion), but was also >$20K.

 

Being in the Chicago area, I had access to a tremendous number of instruments, and I played them all. Probably not the best idea.

 

In the end, I found a Yamaha U3 that I liked, and finally pulled the trigger on it. It seemed to have the best price/performance ratio.

 

To be honest, I have never been especially happy with it. It was a bit bright, as Yamahas tend to be, so I had that adjusted. But I don't know... Maybe I've never gotten past the fact that I really preferred the sound of the various European uprights I played, especially the Bechstein.

 

My advice would be to NOT play any instruments that are out of your price range. When shopping for a new $30,000 car, I wouldn't go out and test drive a Mercedes S. But I came across these pianos in various Chicago area piano dealers, and just had to try them out. Maybe someday I'll have a Bechstein Concert 8, but I'm not counting on it.

 

[Jim Alfredson]

If you have Bluthners in your area, check those out. They make some very nice uprights.

 

You really can't go wrong with Yamaha. The pianos are exquisitely made, are exceedingly easy to tune and maintain, and they sound great.

[Song80s]

Just beware of the grey market ( made for Japan) older U3's. Yamaha made the mistake of designing specific upright models for Japan in the 70's. Many of them found their way to the US , thus the ' grey market'. They have miserable tuning problems here in the US.

[Dave Ferris]

If you have Bluthners in your area, check those out. They make some very nice uprights.

 

This past NAMM I had the pleasure of meeting and hanging with fellow forum member and the head of USA Bluthner - Alex Hernandez/Keybass

 

He had me check out the Bluthner Model A I believe it was (might have been the model C). Even in the din of NAMM (it was upstairs in the large acoustic piano room...so no electronics or drums), I'd have to say it was the highlight and surprise of the show for me. That piano had so much sustain and character, for an upright, I was literally blown away. Alex informed me that Joey Calderazzo, who had played a duo concert with Branford Marsalis earlier in the day at the Schimmel room, stopped by and played it, and had a similar reaction to mine.

 

I didn't get a price. I assume they're more then comparable (in size) Yamahas or Kawais, but man what a beautiful sounding instrument !

 

I've played those Yamaha YUS5s and they are super nice ! As are the comparable higher end Kawai models.

 

And yes the Bechstein Concert 8 is widely considered the Holy Grail among uprights in many circles. I played one years back at NAMM and it was impressive for sure.

 

But again I will say that Bluthner I played was very special at a smaller height.

 

From 1979 to 1988, I played on a Kohler & Campell upright-- this one: http://www.kohlerandcampbell.com/km247.html -- that we bought on a going out of business sale from a piano store in Hawthorne for $1200.

 

I practiced 4-5 hours a day, 6 days a week on it. It wasn't until 1988, at age 35, that we were in a position to get my first grand, a Yamaha C7E for $13,300 + Ca. tax. We put down 10K and had to finance the rest at a whopping 15%. But considering what C7s go for now, I ain't complaining.

 

[piano39]

Just beware of the grey market ( made for Japan) older U3's. Yamaha made the mistake of designing specific upright models for Japan in the 70's. Many of them found their way to the US , thus the ' grey market'. They have miserable tuning problems here in the US.

 

A few months ago, I bought a Yamaha UX-3 gray market piano. Too early to tell if there will be long term tuning issues. I can tell you that the piano is in perfect tune currently and plays like a dream. This particular piano just came from Japan.

 

Every bit of research that I did suggested that the issues with gray market pianos is bogus. The story is that the wood that Yamaha uses for the Japan market is seasoned different than the wood that they use for the U.S. Supposedly, this is done because of the difference in humidity between Japan and U.S. But there are huge differences in humidity in mainland U.S. Yamaha makes no effort to sell different pianos in, say, Arizona vs Florida. Also, I talked to three piano tuners. None of them can cite tuning problems with gray market pianos.

 

I buy the story that gray market pianos compete with legit Yamaha dealers, hence the folklore about the tuning issues with them.

 

I guess that time will tell.

[Song80s]

Just beware of the grey market ( made for Japan) older U3's. Yamaha made the mistake of designing specific upright models for Japan in the 70's. Many of them found their way to the US , thus the ' grey market'. They have miserable tuning problems here in the US.

 

A few months ago, I bought a Yamaha UX-3 gray market piano. Too early to tell if there will be long term tuning issues. I can tell you that the piano is in perfect tune currently and plays like a dream. This particular piano just came from Japan.

 

Every bit of research that I did suggested that the issues with gray market pianos is bogus. The story is that the wood that Yamaha uses for the Japan market is seasoned different than the wood that they use for the U.S. Supposedly, this is done because of the difference in humidity between Japan and U.S. But there are huge differences in humidity in mainland U.S. Yamaha makes no effort to sell different pianos in, say, Arizona vs Florida. Also, I talked to three piano tuners. None of them can cite tuning problems with gray market pianos.

 

I buy the story that gray market pianos compete with legit Yamaha dealers, hence the folklore about the tuning issues with them.

 

I guess that time will tell.

 

of course, Yamaha dealers and their tuning partners will marginalize the problem like this. Fortunately, it has faded in significance.

 

I was a "victim" so I have actual experience. Plus, at the time I got stuck, ( 1998-2002), the problem was very real with other grey market U3 buyers. I live in a dry climate so the grey market U3 was a complete mismatch. The problem was complex interaction with humidity(lack of it), the wood pegboard and the tuning pegs. After tuning, my U3 would sound really great for about 3 weeks, then it would move out of tune.

 

As I mentioned this was the case for a bunch of U3's made in the 70's.

[Michael W]

A quick gripe:

 

One of the most annoying things about piano shopping in the Chicago area, at least, is the inability to find prices of new pianos online. You can find the price of damn near anything online, but new pianos? Not so much. And there aren't many piano store websites that even list which new pianos they have in stock. You have to go there, I guess, so that the salesman can have the opportunity to sell you whatever it is he/she has, at whatever price they can get you to pay.

 

Plenty of stores have used pianos listed online, sometimes with prices, but you can't trust that the site is up to date in terms of accurately reflecting inventory.

 

The retail piano business can actually be crummier than the automobile business. No doubt some of you have reputable dealers and sales people who you deal with, but for me, buying a piano is maybe something I do once every 20 years. I found the whole process to be somewhat unsavory, and doubt that it has gotten much better.

 

I was REALLLY close to buying a used Steinway upright at a local store - it seemed to be in great condition, and the salesperson (who also owned the store) told me the piano was about 15-20 years old. Fortunately, I found how to look up the age of a Steinway piano online, based upon its serial number, and learned that the piano was made in 1962. He almost had me. I called him up, told him what he could do with the piano, and never set foot in his store again. (By the way, it was Hendricks Piano in Downers Grove, Illinois. They've been in business since 1974.)

 

[Brettymike]

We bought a circa 1985 Yamaha U3 upright about 3 years ago for $6000NZ. Overall it's a great piano , but it has a couple of low notes that sound a bit "dead" - even after tuning , I think those couple of strings are crook. I especially love the sound of it playing with the lid open , plenty of power, but my electronic Kurz.PC1X has more gut's and life in the bottom octave.

 

Brett

[Joe Muscara]

One of the most annoying things about piano shopping in the Chicago area, at least, is the inability to find prices of new pianos online. You can find the price of damn near anything online, but new pianos? Not so much

The price of nearly every brand and model of piano available is listed here. There are also tables to find out how to calculate how much a piano should go for used.

 

http://www.pianobuyer.com

 

I didn't mention this when I initially read Darren's post because this info is U.S. prices and I doubt there's a good correlation to where he is.

 

Of course, the way to find out if the piano you're looking at is worth what they're asking, especially if it's used, is to have an independent tech evaluate it for you. If the dealer won't let you bring your own tech, walk. That being said, you'll likely get a MUCH better deal used. It's more work to visit all those pianos in different homes though. My experience is that it was worth it. I got my piano at a great price and it's in great shape. Lots of people buy pianos and hardly touch them, making them like new for players like you and I at great prices.

[cphollis]

As above: always buy used.

 

New pianos depreciate faster than new cars. Find a good piano tech and pay him for his/her expertise. The pianobuyer.com site is a great resource, but only goes so far.

 

Last upright piano purchased: Yamaha U3 a few years back. Hard to go wrong, and Craigslist always has a bunch of good ones for sale. Mine had been used for about 2 years, and was close to half the price of a new one.

 

They have become a trading commodity in the upright piano world. I like the action, and the sound is more than adequate, especially with top lid open. They last forever, it seems.

 

Last acoustic grand purchased: a Brodmann 187. They aspire to compete with Yamaha (and others) for the mid-sized grand market. Wanted a real grand, didn't want to spent a boatload. Bought mine 8 months used, saved $4K.

 

I like mine so far, but it's still breaking in. It competes nicely with my 30-year-old Yamaha 6 foot grand. That one was 20 years used when I bought it for $10K. A steal.

 

Most daring thing that really worked out: a Yamaha AvantGrand N3 from a dealer closing down. $8K. It took me a while to warm up to it, but now it's my favorite. I've grown to love the action, the tone and the fact that I never need to tune it.

 

If you can find a used N series, check it out -- they are impressive.

 

 

[Mark Schmieder]

Near my office is a piano store that has been hidden away for years behind an almost nonexistent sign. I found them quite by accident on-line, yet they were hiding in plain sight! I fully intend to buy my first piano there. They refurb and sell both new and used as well as Kawai digital models.

 

I tried a bunch of them and actually liked some of the Yamahas, finding them darker than many of their grands. I would only buy an Upright Grand though, with full three-pedal action and triple-course strings. They also had a couple of used Mason & Hamlins (my favorite for regular grands) from two different eras; one in bad shape and the other in excellent shape. The good one played almost as well as a full grand.

 

It looks to me that buying an acoustic upright is more bang-for-buck over both the short haul and especially the long haul, than constantly buying digital pianos. But of course it's difficult to capture one's performance for later editing or for rendering with different VI pianos, and I don't think the MIDI Board works on them (plus it's quite expensive anyway). That's the main reason I look at digitals anyway; I don't expect it to leave the home either way. But I'm leaning towards an acoustic upright these days.

 

You might be surprised to find hidden piano stores in your own area. And of course, it is easy to find uprights for almost free on CL. My bandleader got his that way. It plays pretty well, but he is definitely having intonation issues beyond what one would expect, and hasn't had it retuned since a year ago. Maintenance can offset initial cost!

[allan_evett]

I picked up a new, Kawai K2 in early April of this year. Back in February, I'd posted some photos and a video of a very well maintained Ivers & Pond piano; unfortunately that upright was not for sale. I explored several used, then new options, but the best choice turned out to be the Kawai.

 

Compared to a few other new choices, the K2 has some advantages for me. Kawai has a long history of building pianos, and like other, top manufacturers they've learned a lot over many, many years. After reading about the ABS-Carbon action in the K-series, I came away with two, significant impressions: 1) this particular action will be more forgiving of variations in temperature and humidity; 2) the action feels more even, yet slightly lighter than other uprights I've played.

 

While my dream piano has been either a vintage Baldwin grand, or Yamaha C7, economic reality dictates a different instrument. After a few months with the K2 I'm digging it. For finger-to-music connection it's quite a bit ahead of the 1966 Kimball console I grew up with. And this particular K2 has a rather rich tone; it's a little like the Charles Walters upright I did some teaching on - several years ago. The Walters piano would've cost twice as much as the Kawai, though.

 

[dazzjazz]

Great advice so thanks to everyone.

Pianos are relatively cheap these days, but that doesn't mean it's any more affordable for pro musicians!

 

I thought the YUS5 would be something I could live with, as I could articulate lines properly with that action. It's always going to be a compromise going from a grand to an upright, but I really want a more comfortable studio.

 

Will try to check out the Bluthners!

[Brettymike]

Here is an idea if you after a Great sounding Yamaha upright , grab the model Chris Martin uses , it's a good foot shorter than the U3 (cheaper?) , and sounds very similar - if not better , than the U3. > http://youtu.be/Vwf5iRBbilM

Edit: maybe a good 8" shorter . After digging around a bit on the net , there is more to it than meets the eye , and it sounds much better than our U3.

 

Brett