Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[Danny Linguini]

Oh Aspen, you old dog.

 

I don't see myself needing the big boy for my needs (not to mention the complaining I'd get from my old bones for lugging around a 65-lb hunk of gear), but I'm excited just the same for the folks who will. It sounds like this addresses the needs of the vast majority of people who were asking for a little more punch than the SS3 provides, which I think is just awesome.

 

As for not announcing it here earlier, well, this is kind of a competitive industry, and I understand perfectly why you wouldn't/shouldn't let the cat out of the bag too soon. No complaints here. Though I could see someone being unhappy if they had just bought a SS3 who might have waited had they known the SXL was coming soon, if everybody waited for the next upgrade of everything, nobody would ever buy anything, which pretty much defies every principle of GAS. We can't have that.

 

Anyway, good luck with the new model. If it lives up to expectations as well as the SS3, I'm sure you have another hit on your hands.

[OrpheusNY]

Should the XL version get its own thread?

 

(Aside from the significant differences between v.3 and XL, I confess I have ulterior motives- every time the apostrophe catastrophe in the subject line of this thread pop's up, my eye's hurt and my finger's itch to fix it, but theres nothing I can do about these feeling's).

[Doerfler]

I mentioned that on page 170.

Maybe someone who has heard it at NAMM can start one.

[Doug Robinson]

I heard it yesterday. It is the sound of the little one, but far fuller and fleshed out. It was fantastic. The weight will be a stopper for some, I'm sure. But if you've got guys to help you I can't imagine a better solution for projecting three dimensional keyboard sound.

[JPerry]

Thanks for the first impression, Jazzooo. I'll be very interested in reviews of acoustic piano patches through this. I have no doubt that EPs and organs will sound great, just like with the SSv3.

APs are the acid test.

[Pigmeat]

I want one! I'll have to wait and see how difficult it is to get one shipped to Canada.

[Doug Robinson]

Well, the demo I heard was playing Steely Dan's Babylon sisters through the small one, and then switching it over to the big one. It was fascinating, the same spacious sound only much bigger and more accurate I'd say. I was optimistic about the potential for acoustic piano sounds.

[Joe Muscara]

Should the XL version get its own thread?

 

(Aside from the significant differences between v.3 and XL, I confess I have ulterior motives- every time the apostrophe catastrophe in the subject line of this thread pop's up, my eye's hurt and my finger's itch to fix it, but theres nothing I can do about these feeling's).

I may have fixed it in the subject line above my post a previous time like I have done here, but then some dummy replied to a post above mine and continued the "apostrophe catastrophe." I'm sure some smart ass will do it again now, intentionally.

[JPerry]

Thanks, Jazzooo. That sounds promising.

 

[timwat]

As you may have seen, I started a separate SS XL thread a little earlier today.

 

Hope that helps some.

[Joe Muscara]

See?

[timwat]

Although we ought to keep this thread here,

 

And the one I created on the XL

 

And another one on the dormant KC II site, just to reproduce the M+S bloom.

 

[ShadowMan]

reminder to self: weighs 65 lbs, and your 65 years old and you transport gear in the bed of a pick up truck LIFTING said gear

 

note to Aspen: darn you for presenting me with this quandary

 

My concern exactly. (Except you got a few years on me...)

 

Regularly lifting 65 lbs into the bed of a pickup is just too much for this aging back. Having just picked up a Berhinger sub (from a fellow forum member) for my SS3 - and absolutely LOVING the combination - the same total weight split between two boxes remains a lot more manageable for me.

 

That said, if Aspen and team could shave about 15 pounds on it in the next go round, I'd be REALLY interested.

[Dglavko]

I want one! I'll have to wait and see how difficult it is to get one shipped to Canada.

I bought mine (the smaller one) through sweetwater shipped to Toronto no problem.

[Pigmeat]

I want one! I'll have to wait and see how difficult it is to get one shipped to Canada.

I bought mine (the smaller one) through sweetwater shipped to Toronto no problem.

 

Thanks for the tip.

[zaphod betamax]

There is a picture of the outputs on Aspen's product page, but I'd like to see the inputs, re, is it XLR only, or balanced TRS. Will it work with unbalanced.

 

Also, if this was Gearslutz, my answer would be "get both" lol.

[zaphod betamax]

 

I ordered mine direct from Aspen circa July 2015 and had it delivered to my home in Sarnia, Ontario (a whopping 180 miles (300 km) from Toronto!) But us Canadians do dig them, ehhh!

 

I want one! I'll have to wait and see how difficult it is to get one shipped to Canada.

I bought mine (the smaller one) through sweetwater shipped to Toronto no problem.

[tonybanksfan]

I want one! I'll have to wait and see how difficult it is to get one shipped to Canada.

I bought mine (the smaller one) through sweetwater shipped to Toronto no problem.

 

Thanks for the tip.

Aspen shipped me one from his shop directly to Winnipeg and I am not sure if it is still his policy, but he knocked $100 off the price to help cover shipping and the low Canadian dollar.

Excellent speaker by the way. Learning curve and some mixing EQ adjustments and your good to go.

 

[Al Coda]

... the inputs, re, is it XLR only, or balanced TRS. Will it work with unbalanced.

 

To me it looks like balanced TRS inputs.

Balanced always works w/ unbalanced signals and TS plugs.

 

A.C.

 

[Aspen]

 

That said, if Aspen and team could shave about 15 pounds on it in the next go round, I'd be REALLY interested.

 

Hi all, forgive the late reply but I'm still recharging my batteries from a 2+ week non stop NAMM adventure.

 

Understood about the double weight issue...I also wish I could lose 15 pounds (I mean the SXL...too), and I did my best to keep it down!

 

FYI, the first few prototypes were about 15 lbs MORE, and it was during that effort in weight reduction for the SXL, while trying plywood and a new DSPU to go transformerless, that I decided to visit those ideas to the SS3 'Lite' that rduce it by about 10 lbs to 32 pounds!

 

However our custom made 3 Ohm 12" USA Coax Eminence woofer in the SXL is double the weight of our CX2008 SS3 wooffer. I considered Neo magnets, but Neos are almost double the cost with no sonic benefit.

 

It also has more double the wood because we have a cab inside a cab with our PAF Digital Alignment Transducer technology that allows us to build a second internal cab for the Side system, which now also uses double the 6.5" speakers!

 

And of coarse we doubled the channels, the control panels and more than doubled the power.

 

So all that 'doubling' considered, you can appreciate it was nearly impossible NOT to double the weight too!

 

I like several of the comments above here that adding a sub to the SS3 splits the weight into 2 packages, which is easier to handle. I do think the SS3 w/ a sub may be a better solution than stepping up to a SXL for many of you.

 

But for those with a dolly and an extra pair of hands, playing in a band with a double bass drummer and Marshall half stacks...the SXL may have some advantages.

[cdom]

It will be interesting to see if I can eliminate the sub from my rig and hear a clean acoustic piano with the Faital speaker upgrade. Ill share my experience, as it happens.

 

And, heres what happened

 

I used the SS3 with the Faital 8HX200 on 2 gigs with our loud, blues-rock-fusion band and It was a fail.

 

Obviously, installing a speaker that has different sonic characteristics would affect the overall sound SS3, and it did. Not only was the mid-range boosted exponentially, there seemed to be an adverse effect on the quality of the 3D bloom. All the time and effort I had put into my individual patches on the Nord Stage 2 (multi-instruments with individual effects, volume & EQ levels) went out the window. I had to tweak various parameters on the fly, to get my sound where I wanted it. It was like starting over. FYI.. I was also using the Behringer B1200D-PRO sub, the combo Ive been gigging with since 2015.

 

Could it have worked? Possibly, but since I have put so much live gig experience into my patch tweaking with the SS3, I dont want to start over and ruin a good thing. Throwing a different speaker into the box was a fun experiment, but it didnt work me.

 

Note When I played acoustic piano at low volume (in my home studio, with no sub) there was a noticeable clarity to the piano sound. There could be some potential for low-volume gigs, but thats not how I currently use the SS3.

 

So, the Eminence is back in the hole, and Ive got a beautiful Italian speaker sitting in its original packaging. If anyone is interested in continuing this little experiment, hit me up on the private side and make me an offer. Otherwise, Ill consider it a very interesting, expensive date with a beautiful girl who couldnt put out.

 

Ciao Bella.

[JPerry]

Thanks for the report, cdom. Too bad that it didn't work for you, but that's useful information for the rest of us. I'm happy with my SSv3 as is, although like most I wish the bass was more present. Looks like Aspen has addressed that with his new XL model. Lots of choices for amplification these days!

[jbolazzi]

Thank you cdom for your feedback. I confirm from my 2 months experience that for piano and organ smooth jazz, the faital speaker brought a noticeable improvement in term of sound clarity and that I didn't perceive lost in the 3D effect. Yes I had to reset my sounds EQ to optimise the benefits. As I mentioned in previous message, some proper electronic filtering adjustment is probably required for the SS3 amp to comply with the new speaker characteristics. Looking forward for more testing.

[cphollis]

Thanks for the report, cdom. Not surprising, really.

 

The Faital is more efficient, so it's putting out a lot more volume at a given output level, which of course throws off the balance with the tweeter and the side-firing speaker and thus requires you to manually readjust to get anything close to a flat response.

 

I'd be up for all that if it boosted sonic quality, say, 20%.

[Al Coda]

 

... our custom made 3 Ohm 12" USA Coax Eminence woofer in the SXL ...

 

Why 3 ohms ?

That´s very uncommon from my experience.

 

And because we now get a 2-way bi-amped system,- I´d also be interested to know what the x-over frequency for the Mid/Hi driver is.

 

A.C.

[Al Quinn]

Thanks for the report cdom. Sorry it didn't work out.

[AnotherScott]

The Faital is more efficient, so it's putting out a lot more volume at a given output level, which of course throws off the balance with the tweeter and the side-firing speaker and thus requires you to manually readjust to get anything close to a flat response.

That's an interesting point. With a more efficient main woofer, it sounds like your starting point would have to include boosting the MF/HF level on the box for the highs, and the Width which (I think) is essentially a volume level for the side speaker, to get the components back into balance (and hopefully none were already pushed so much that you can't bring them up further by enough to get them where you want). But that should be about the extent of the "rebalancing" required, with the other variable being to "undo" any of the EQ you specifically did to get the original sounding the way you wanted, and get back to a flat input starting point.

[jbolazzi]

Actually, just boosting the low frequency gain from my piano EQ successfully work with the Faital SS3 sound output. I get a well balanced and clear medium and high and also quite enough bass for accustic piano. Modifying the SS3 Width also helps but it is very sensitive and dependant on the speaker location in the room. I suspect that when using an external sub, boosting the low frequency for a good SS3 3D sound, would dramatically increase the overall bass level ( unless you can adjust it on the sub itself).

[Al Quinn]

jbolazzi, could you provide a recording? I would love to hear digital acoustic piano through the SS with the Faital speaker.

[Aspen]

The Faital is more efficient, so it's putting out a lot more volume at a given output level, which of course throws off the balance with the tweeter and the side-firing speaker and thus requires you to manually readjust to get anything close to a flat response.

That's an interesting point. With a more efficient main woofer, it sounds like your starting point would have to include boosting the MF/HF level on the box for the highs, and the Width which (I think) is essentially a volume level for the side speaker, to get the components back into balance (and hopefully none were already pushed so much that you can't bring them up further by enough to get them where you want). But that should be about the extent of the "rebalancing" required, with the other variable being to "undo" any of the EQ you specifically did to get the original sounding the way you wanted, and get back to a flat input starting point.

 

Time to Chime! I have been following the 'Italian Job' adventures with interest. It seems we are batting 500 (one hit, and one miss)...and agree with many of the observations such as this one from Scott here....'some re assembly required'.

 

(side note; I am 40 minutes late to work this morning after watching/listening to that AMAZING work from Heresy Scott linked us too in his comments...wow, what a beautiful production!)

 

Back to the other Italian job (from 'women talking of Michaelangelo'). I thought there could very likely be some changes required to adapt the new coax in both levels, EQ and stereo tweaks with your patches. The SS3 was near flat...and changing the main Front speaker will throw all that off...for certain.

 

When we first 'tuned' the SS3 around the Eminence USA CX2008 and it's USA mid driver the APT, the filter curves were tailored for that pairing and the 'loading' of it tiny cabinet. So probably this could be done again for the Italian Job to optimize everything for the new Italian coax. But that is a long labor intensive science project to make new curves and then design the filters around those measurements. And of coarse, there is the added cost of those imported drivers. Then, in the end sound is so subjective I doubt everyone would agree we had accomplished much improvement.

 

Eminence has very good USA made sounding drivers, and at a reasonable cost for OEM manufactures large and small (like me). So I think we hit the sweet spot for both price and performance with the original design on the SS v.3. I can confirm that the USA drivers for the v.3 Front systems were WAY better sounding than the early Spacestion/SFX 100, and the following SS MK2 which were all using Chinese made drivers. Many of you have upgraded your MK2 and can conform these USA drivers DO Make a big difference.

 

But there is always 'the law of diminishing returns' when designing any product. I looked at more expensive drivers when designing the SS3, but I had to balance price and performance to be sure I made a box most could afford at the end of the process. As I have mentioned before, but is good to review; as a rule you can multiply the raw component cost to the manufacturer by 5x to get the end cost for you...the end user. So a $30 mid driver (my cost) will translate to around $150 of the total cost of a speaker at your cost! Try that formula with your Italian job and you can see why I picked the CX2008 and APT coax from USA Eminence. Great 'boom for the buck'!

 

I mention all this with a purpose in mind, and a possible suggestion forming for the more adventurous among you.

 

I had a thought today while reading about cdom's experience, and his ultimate return to the original CX2008; there may be a much easier way to upgrade his SS3 for about $35, which could be accomplished in less than 10 minutes. But I emphasize 'may'.

 

When developing the SXL I went thru a bunch of samples for the Front speaker coax, I also looked at 15" versions but decided the weight vs: performance was not worth the small improvement in bass, and anyway were were going to a full DSP design so tweaking the filters would allow us to match a 15" anyway. This is SOP for me; try everything, but think lke you, the end user...price and size DOES matter!

 

So I settled on a woofer which was a custom design made for me that is essentially a bigger version of the custom made 8" woofer in the SS3; w/ a poly cone and foam surround. (BTW, someone here asked why a 3 Ohm voice coil, and while we started with a 4 Ohm sample we later specified a 3 Ohm to get more energy from the Class D amp. This Class D can actually drive as low as 2 Ohms..and you do get significantly more power the lower you drive it. And, when designing a self powered cab we are not limited to standard 2/4/8 Ohm impedance loads because we are designing an integrated system with no 'extension speaker outputs'....so you cannot mis match the impedances.

 

However, for the MId driver (and tweeter) of the SXL Front system I chose an Eminence catalog Titanium mid driver to complete the coax package. Their USA Made ASD:1001, see: http://www.eminence.com/speakers/driver-detail/?model=ASD1001S

 

This driver has an extended HF response (so that is why we could eliminate the super tweeter in the SXL) and also it has lower crossover (2.5K vs. 3.5K). So it 'goes lower' and is punchier than the APT, which may (or may not) make some of your piano patches sound nicer too. BTW, this was something several of our NAMM listeners told us they liked about the new SXL.

 

Here's my thought; the ASD and APT are interchangeable...that is they have the same thread pattern and so the ASD could easily screw into the CX208 woofer in your SS3. However, the SS3 crossover is still set for 3.5K, and I am not sure how much work would be required to lower that for the ASD. But for sure, it will sound different. Whether that is better is subjective, as always when listening to speakers.

 

I'll have to try this myself later today in the studio and see what happens. If I like it, I will report back. Then I will also need to explore if the crossover can easily be lowered to 2.5K to allow the ASD to work in that area.

 

It should work (in therory), but I will not know until I try it myself...I encourage you all to WAIT! BUt if it does work (and by that I mean noticibly improve), then this DYI adventure may be MUCH easier and cheaper for you to try as compared to another 'Italian Job'. BTW, currently I notice Eminence has the normally $35 ASD:1000 on sale for $30 with free shipping! (just a bit less than cdom paid :>)

 

However guys, and as most of you know...so I stress this point; the SS3 is a near perfect design for it's application. It has has made 1,000s of you very happy 'as it is'.

 

So frankly spoken I do not consider it 'broken', by any means. And I have NO intention of redesigning a 'winner' product.

 

However some of you are DIY'ers and love to 'tinker'...so for you this may be a fun and cheap way to modify your SS3..which is easily reversible. But whether this is an 'up grade' remains to be seen...I will try it and get back to you, give me a week or so to do all the cross over research too.