GovernorSilver Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Just curious though, what do you play on Maiden Voyage? What do you think of? Do you also play mixolydian through most of Maiden Voyage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
16251 Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Maiden Voyage | D mixolydian | " | " | " | | F mixolydian | " | " | " | I'm not trying to be difficult, just want perspective. You said earlier G mixo, now D mixo?? This brings back my earlier question "what about the F# in D mixo? AvantGrand N2 | ES520 | Gallien-Krueger MK & MP | https://soundcloud.com/pete36251 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 The G Mixolydian was not mentioned in reference to "Maiden Voyage." The F# is a good note in the D Mixolydian mode, used when they improvise on "Maiden Voyage" during the first 4 measures (with C/D voicing). Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Gov, no. I will try to keep the tonality vague. This means I won't focus on the third. This also means I might also play the b3 which will change the scale. Or I'd think of McCoy Tyner intervallic lines which (depending on where you take the fourths) will take you outside. The problem is that played as straight Mixolydian, that tritone will want it to resolve and the whole style of modal is that it doesn't necessarily draw you to resolve. To someone thinking about the mode 'literally' then the tritone becomes the focus. A true harmonic interpretation of the mode is 1 3 5 b7. It doesn't mean I'd never play that tritone interval, it just means to me it's done as other things to generate harmonic motion instead of a static harmony. That's my view of modal. Which is why it's not easy to do it well. So you could look at Dsus as D Mixo or in a modal sense just think of it as G scale with a D drone (which I think is how Jazz+ would see it). But McCoy Tyner sees a sus and attacks it completely differently so I'm just extending beyond the G Scale. Obviously at points, Jazz+ and I would think of it the same way. I'm just going to the purpose of Herbie's choice of making a tune entirely with sus chords. He wasn't trying to create ii-V's. If one says to a beginner that Maiden Voyage is all Mixo, what do you think the note choices would be? Now to me blues is all Mixo though modified with alterations. Jazz+ is obviously just talking semantics here with me. He knows that to say Mixo means he's just thinking of melodies in the G Scale (don't want to put words in your mouth J+ so correct me if I'm wrong). I'm just trying to bring it into the context of the application of modes vs. modal. There is a mode in modal but once you label something modal, IMHO, it suggests a little freedom that's not obvious in the original scale. When my band plays modal, we immediately think "spacey". It's a complete contrast to playing There Will Never Be Another You. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 No the tritone doesn't need to resolve when playing mixolydian modal ... that's something in your mind. I am thinking D mixolydian with Maiden Voyage (not thinking about a G major scale). The D mixolydian mode is a perfectly legitimate mode in its own right: D E F# G A B C (D is the 1st note of the mode) Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
16251 Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 I kind of know how I'd use the F# over Maiden Voyage but am interested how any of you would handle this. AvantGrand N2 | ES520 | Gallien-Krueger MK & MP | https://soundcloud.com/pete36251 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GovernorSilver Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Thanks, guys. As a relative noob, I'm approaching the tune (MV) as mixolydian mode in 3 different keys, and C# dorian mode. I learned that from Fareed Haque. I anticipate eventually playing this tune better than what's up on SC at the moment, which I regard as a silly "before" take anyway (if you think of "before" and "after" snapshots as seen in adverts). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 McCoy Tyner plays F mixolydian on "Passion Dance" over his F sus chord... Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 From basic music theory Jazz+, a tritone WANTS to resolve. If that's what Herbie wanted then he would have made it V7 chords all the way. When you think of a mode, aren't you thinking of chord tones 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 (altered accordingly)? By definition that's why we teach modes so that we tell a student learning D dorian that the main tonality in your head is D F G A (1 b3 5 b7). Otherwise, why teach modes? Then just talk C scale for D Dorian. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 McCoy Tyner plays F mixolydian on "Passion Dance" over his F sus chord... I can tell you straight out that the last thing I'm thinking on Passion dance is Mixo. I'm thinking quartal harmony. If one is thinking mixo, it's not going to sound like McCoy. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Jazzwee you need to expand your thinking... look at Herbie playing unresolved tritone in measure 3 of Maiden Voyage... F# is a good note on A-7/D .... A is a good note on C-7/F ... mixolydian in play: http://www.pavelwlosok.com/wcu/mus320/Students_Transcriptions_F2013/Ethan_Marvin_Transicription.pdf Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 I'm guessing the OP is super confused now so I'll add to my explanation. To me at least, when I think of a mode literally, I'm thinking of emphasizing the tonality of that mode, which is in essence the alternating notes of the mode (i.e. the seventh chord in it). Emphasizing the mode in my mind translates to playing the chord tones on strong beats. So in a functional progression (non-modal tune), your goal is to illustrate the harmony by "making the changes". Or to put it in more obvious terms, make the chord tones stand out (usually by playing them on downbeats). Thus when playing a straight standard, you can ignore thinking about the mode and alternatively just concentrate on the 1-3-5-7 of the chord for that particular beat. Where this gets confusing is in MODAL, there's no such rule as playing the 1-3-5-7 of the chord on strong beats. And to be honest, this debate is really just about "focus". So it is also my main problem with the focus on modes. I personally think it's a deficient educational approach. Thus food for more debate Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 McCoy is playing F mixolydian on Passion Dance: http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/1b2x0hzds023qlvg/images/1-8abbd11233.jpg Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Jazz+, if I take your definition of Mixo in Maiden Voyage literally, I'd be playing the tritone CONSTANTLY. Regular repetition of 3/b7 on downbeats. Using it occasionally as part of a harmonic flow is consistent with what I'm saying. Mixo to me implies a functional chord progression. Sus does not. So this all goes back to how we teach modes. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Jazzwee, did you look at measure 3 and 4 of Herbie Hancocks' solo on Maiden Voyage? You could learn something here. Here it is again: http://www.pavelwlosok.com/wcu/mus320/Students_Transcriptions_F2013/Ethan_Marvin_Transicription.pdf Meausres 3 and 4, plays F# and C tritone. And measure 9-12 a clean descent down the D mixolydian mode. Notice he never plays the minor third. Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Again going back to teach modes, would you tell a student learning ATTYA that the first chord Fm (which is Aeolian mode in Ab as you know), that it would be played with ANY note in the Ab Scale? Or would you tell the student to stick to emphasizing chord tones since this is a functional progression? What does it really help to tell the student that this is Aeolian mode? Don't we all know that not every note in a mode is equal? By the same token, in modal, could we not think the opposite (all notes are equal), which is a completely opposite concept? Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Jazz+, if I take your definition of Mixo in Maiden Voyage literally, I'd be playing the tritone CONSTANTLY. Regular repetition of 3/b7 on downbeats. That's ridiculous, I never said any such thing. Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjo Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Just to offer a slightly different perspective on sus chords. I was taught that they are, in essence, a combination of the ii and the V. It is the ii chord over the bass of the V. Thus in Maiden Voyage the opening chord is A-7 over a D bass. I, therefore, think A Dorian,which is, of course, the same as D Mixolydian. As for how I play on a modal tune, I just think extended melodic lines rather than outlining the harmony. Not much more complicated than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Jazzwee, did you look at measure 3 and 4 of Herbie Hancocks' solo on Maiden Voyage? You could learn something here. Here it is again: http://www.pavelwlosok.com/wcu/mus320/Students_Transcriptions_F2013/Ethan_Marvin_Transicription.pdf Meausres 3 and 4, plays F# and C tritone. And measure 9-12 a clean descent down the D mixolydian mode. Notice he never plays the minor third. You misconstrue me Jazz+. Of course I would expect that he would occasionally play the tritone. We're miscommunicating on a more basic level here. Should we go back to our old agreements on Hal Galper's Forward motion? I WOULD NOT apply Hal Galper's concepts to modal. That's all I'm saying. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Jazz+, if I take your definition of Mixo in Maiden Voyage literally, I'd be playing the tritone CONSTANTLY. Regular repetition of 3/b7 on downbeats. That's ridiculous, I never said any such thing. Of course not. That's what "I" would think when Mixo is stated. Please read back what I said about modes. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Jazzwee, just give us the simple name for the scale/mode that Hancock plays on the first 4 measures of the Dsus chord in Maiden Voyage. The tonic is D in the scale/mode. And the the name of the scale/mode Tyner plays on the first 8 measures of the Fsus chord in Passion Dance. Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Clearly this at least is going back to the OP's original question. Since everyone is responding so quickly without reading, I will now have to repeat my question. Are all notes in a "Mode" equal? Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GovernorSilver Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 I kind of know how I'd use the F# over Maiden Voyage but am interested how any of you would handle this. I would use it freely over the D mixolydian, Eb mixolydian, and C# dorian bars of the tune, since F# is a member of all three of those modes. Over the F mixolydian bars, I'd of course use it only in passing. I often listen to classic recording and try to reuse ideas from it. I tend to lean the most on Coleman's and Hubbard's lines, though it may not be reflected on my crappy recording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Gov, that's right, but I think you meant the F# is a member of only the D mixolydian and the C# dorian. And not the Eb mixolydian. Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 I kind of know how I'd use the F# over Maiden Voyage but am interested how any of you would handle this. I would use it freely over the D mixolydian, Eb mixolydian, and C# dorian bars of the tune, since F# is a member of all three of those modes. Over the F mixolydian bars, I'd of course use it only in passing. I often listen to classic recording and try to reuse ideas from it. I tend to lean the most on Coleman's and Hubbard's lines, though it may not be reflected on my crappy recording. IMHO, I sense a disconnect in everyone's understanding of a parent scale vs. a mode... Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 The 4 modes of "Maiden Voyage": Dsus: D E F# G A B C (D mix) Fsus: F G A Bb C D Eb (F mix) Ebsus: Eb F G Ab Bb C Db (Eb mix) C#-7: C# D# E F# G# A# B (C# dor) The mode of "Passion Dance": Fsus: F G A Bb C D Eb (F mix) Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 So how is this different? Dsus: D E F# G A B C (G Scale) Fsus: F G A Bb C D Eb (Bb Scale) Ebsus: Eb F G Ab Bb C Db (Ab Scale) C#-7: C# D# E F# G# A# B (B Scale) What are you telling a student that's different? Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GovernorSilver Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Gov, that's right, but I think you meant the F# is a member of only the D mixolydian and the C# dorian. And not the Eb mixolydian. Ah yes, good catch. F# is indeed not in Eb mixolydian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Gov, that's right, but I think you meant the F# is a member of only the D mixolydian and the C# dorian. And not the Eb mixolydian. Ah yes, good catch. F# is indeed not in Eb mixolydian. Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Modes have tonics. "D mixolydian" within "Maiden Voyage" identifies the tonic as D for that mode during the Dsus section. And C# dorian identifies C# as the tonic for that mode during the C#-7 chord section. "F mixolydian" within "Passion Dance" identifies the tonic as F for that mode during the Fsus section. Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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