Questions about scales and modes?

[I-missRichardTee]

Re Cunliffe: He is financially not able to afford lessons, nor books.

There must be a site that has useful, not overly complicated harmony/ chords.

[GovernorSilver]

Re Cunliffe: He is financially not able to afford lessons, nor books.

There must be a site that has useful, not overly complicated harmony/ chords.

 

On no i didn't say he should get the Cunliffe.

[CEB]

I know that most everybody says to find a good teacher, but I am quite impoverished at the moment and it will be quite a while before I will be able to afford a teacher. I just figure that in in mean while I can work on fundamentals so that when I can afford a teacher I already have a lot of the basics covered.

 

Learning songs by ear and by transcription on your own is what I would do.

 

My best Jazz teacher basically taught me by teaching me songs. Each song would a case study for whatever elements it contained. My situation was different because I already played piano but I think method still works.

 

Make each song a case study for learning elements that pretains to that piece. Doesn't have to be Jazz either. You can learn quite a bit from Booker T. It might have been here or a Jazz piano forum I told someone to post a clip of whatever song they were working on and the peanut gallery could try to itemize the musical devices you would belearning with in the piece.

 

If you know the guitar and you learn the keyboard transscribing some of of guitar work to the organ is of value also.

 

PS: Green Onions is just random example pick a song you like.

IMHO, Organ is more forgiving that piano. With bad piano technique you can hurt yourself. Organ seems safer to me.

 

Personally, scalewise I would start with major scales to begin drilling key signature I would start with 6 tone and pentatonic blue scales. You can then drill those scales with Green Onions. If you can get a MIDI file and load it in a some cheap or free piece of score software that has a transpose function. Then learn Green Onion in other keys. Learn Green Onions in all 12 Keys you just just leanred every blues scale.

 

If it is fun then you will learn.

 

Probably most of us ( at least me) learned through strict regimented structured discipline but we were children. Children don't have the longterm focus to learn any other way.

 

Make it fun.

 

[Melodious Thunk]

Chords get easier to pick out over time, the more you do it. I find it helps to identify the chord type first (major, minor, or dominant). Sus chords might be tougher, but even in those cases you'll still have the bass note at least.

 

Yeah, I'd start with the Blues 101. Bill Cunliffe's approach in his book Jazz Keyboard Toolbox starts with the most basic blues form - super easy left hand comping and melody, and gradually adds to that.

Do you think that's it's worth learning to comp with my left hand even though I will really only be using it to run bass lines?

[GovernorSilver]

Chords get easier to pick out over time, the more you do it. I find it helps to identify the chord type first (major, minor, or dominant). Sus chords might be tougher, but even in those cases you'll still have the bass note at least.

 

Yeah, I'd start with the Blues 101. Bill Cunliffe's approach in his book Jazz Keyboard Toolbox starts with the most basic blues form - super easy left hand comping and melody, and gradually adds to that.

Do you think that's it's worth learning to comp with my left hand even though I will really only be using it to run bass lines?

 

I dunno, I'd just go with what Monaco says.

[Melodious Thunk]

Do you guys think that it is ok to learn chords by counting. Like, to find the third count up 4 half steps from the root, the 4th count up 5 half steps, and the 5th count up 7 half steps? I think that after doing this for a while that my fingers/brain might just know were a 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 7th is in relation to the root.

 

Also, I assume that you wouldn't play the root note since the chord since it would be being played in the bass line? So, do you play what I think are called shell voicing, maybe a 3rd and a 7th?

 

[CEB]

Yes it is OK I guess. It is a lot of work. Generally you just you would just know where to go because learning your principle scales would teach you your intervals. In the end chords and scales become the same thing the same thing. But you have to start somewhere.

 

Sometimes you play roots sometimes you don't. There are no absolutes in voicings. I use 3-7 shell voicings a lot. I often play 3/5/7 in the right hand. If I am playing something based on like a Fm blues to voice a Fm7 I will play a Ab major chord in the right and may a F or F-C or F-C-F with the left..... maybe even play anoth Ab with the left or nothing with the left. Depends on:

 

1) Am I sharing sonic space with another bass instrument.

2) What kind of sound do I want. - Use your ears.

3) How the Leslie breaks up is a function of what tones you send to it. Goldy told me a key to those overdirven organ sounds on the old Steppenwolf tunes were those big spread voicings. It is more than just mashing the gas.

 

3-7 voicing work really well when playing with a guitarist because the way the guitar chords are generally structured they are heavy on the 1 and 5s. You play rock and often all guitarist play are 5ths.

[GovernorSilver]

Do you guys think that it is ok to learn chords by counting. Like, to find the third count up 4 half steps from the root, the 4th count up 5 half steps, and the 5th count up 7 half steps? I think that after doing this for a while that my fingers/brain might just know were a 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 7th is in relation to the root.

 

Yes, this is how I learned chord construction - building a chord by stacking intervals.

 

The trick is to not get confused when you hear chord inversions.

[Jazzwee]

I lately discovered Larry Young (when I started looking at organs). I really enjoyed what I heard. But then I just realized why. My teacher, Alan Pasqua, was Larry Young's equivalent in the Tony Williams Lifetime. I never knew this connection before.

 

(Too bad I never learned Fusion/Organs -- I only studied piano).

 

 

I am barely familiar with Alan Pasqua.. but I suspect he's another killer player.

And does he still teach, or did that practice go the way of the Dodo birds.. aka "for the boyds" lol it's late, and I am dopey.

 

Well of course he's teaching because he taught me

 

Actually he's your dreaded College Professor. He's the chair of Jazz Studies at USC. And gigging regularly around town.

 

 

[icarusi]

Those of you who "know your modes", can you sit down at a keyboard and just play any mode that you are called upon to play ASAP or do you have to think it out first, like how it relates to a major scale before you play. I guess I am saying, do you have instant recall (have them all memorized), or do you have to think about most of them first(know how to construct them via a major scale)? Hope that I am making sense!

I've tended to group diatonic modes by intervals, tend to forget names, so two start WWH major and mixolydian, two start WH minor and whatever, two start HW, sound like flamenco and one starts WWW and sounds more unusual than the others. I was looking at some eastern scales and they split them into 2 parts per octave, which you can also do with diatonic modes, if you think of the the interval sequence.

 

Same with melodic minor, the first scale you get a HWH sequence, which you don't get in any diatonic modes, which also occurs in a diminished scale, so convenient to merge in and out of melodic minor modes and extended dimished scale, or whole tone runs, depending where you are in any melodic minor mode.

[I-missRichardTee]

Yes, I like that spliting of a scale in half. They used to call the half a scale, a tetrachord.

Phrygian is Spanish Half Whole

locrian as well

[I-missRichardTee]

So Jazzwee Tell me, because I am not thinking clearly about this- explain the distinction between mode and modal, please.

I say eg D dorian means I emphasize the Dnote, the D tonality or Dmodality. AND additionally I avoid like the plague the DOminant of the Parent scale, because that sound of Dominant naturally associated with its Tonic, and his so strong, that your ear will be pulled away from the modality you are trying to emphasize. edit translated if you are trying to play D dorian Be careful of G7 because it gravitates so easily to C major via G.

[Jazz+]

Modal music is exemplified in this performance of "Balloons" by Kenny Werner. This original composition follows a progression of modes. (see the modes from Werner's personal chart below)

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F4TDKJHZhQ

[I-missRichardTee]

Thank you Jazz+ ( Do you have a first name? ) And Jazzwee, what is your first name or handle? I have you two mixed up!

 

Kenny sounds like Ravel/ Debussy, given the 30 seconds I listened. Not my thing... I mean, I love and respect Ravel and Debussy. I recall Sir Roland Hanna referred to fusion ( we briefly were teacher pupil ) as Confusion! Don't mistake that for closed mind, I loved Headhunters and Zawinul and his incarnations with Jaco, Shorter etc. In other words, mixing jazz with impressionism is anyones prerogative, their business. But this music lacks what Herbie or Freddie, or Trane brought to modal music.

Jazz is a miraculous blend of 2 musical worlds.. 19th century Europe's most advanced sophisticated music, from Bach to Chopin to Ravel, and 20 the century American Blues and swing... When cats veer too far from American Blues and swing, they lose me.

If I want to hear Ravel, I will...... well you get the idea. -) Now, this does not mean that Werner is not a musically gifted person, just from what I have heard, not my thing

 

NOW! Can one of you describe the distinctions between mode and modal and whatever else you understand about this area of music, which is filled with confusion!! I am sure the OP will appreciate it.

[I-missRichardTee]

Examples might help.. actually tunes. Starting from say, Duke Satin Doll, is there any aspect of mode or modal in that tune?

In key of C maj is Dm7 to G7 somehow Dorian or Mixo to you?

Seems very odd to me, adding complication, but I am truly interested in an alternative view from my own -)

 

 

 

[Jazz+]

The above video of Kenny Werner performing "Balloons" and his personal chord chart for it exemplifies modal jazz improvisation.

 

"Balloons" by Kenny Werner (from his personal chart):

||: G- | G phryg :|| 4x

||: Eb-7 | Eb aeol :|| 4x

||: C aeol | C-9 :|| 4x

||: Ab-9 | Ab aeol :|| 4x

| F-7 | Db lyd | F-7 | Gb lyd |

| Ab-7 | E maj7 | Ab-7 | A maj7 |

| F-7 | G-7 | C#7 sus | C#7 sus ||

 

 

 

[GovernorSilver]

Examples might help.. actually tunes. Starting from say, Duke Satin Doll, is there any aspect of mode or modal in that tune?

 

Satin Doll is built on a progression of chords from functional harmony, not a progression of modes, and is thus not a modal tune.

 

The Kenny Werner tune OTOH is modal, because it follows a progression of modes, as explained by Jazz+

[Jazzwee]

Not sure anyone cares what my opinion is since there's obvious disagreement.

 

But here's my take.

 

Functional Progression/Non-Modal

 

A non-modal tune (like a standard) requires you to "make" the changes. You're pretty much obligated to outline the harmony. This means that if you see a ii-V-I such as:

 

D- (Dorian) G7 (Mixo) CMaj7 (Lydian),

 

Then you should be interpreting that as outlining the chord tones on the downbeats, unless you are doing a sub, in which case you outline the sub.

 

As I already said (and Tee you don't really like to read), a mode in this context, to me has a relationship to the beat.

 

If you play D Dorian mode starting from beat 1, you will get chord tones on downbeats and extensions on off beats. You do this out of beat sequence and it sounds like a different mode.

 

So thus I translate a mode, as applied to functional harmony, as play chord tones on the beat (quarter notes) and play extensions on the offbeats/upbeat. If played like this it will sound like the mode.

 

Modal

 

Now having described non-modal, to me Modal is freeing. Because there is NO rule that says you stick to the chord tones. You can play anything you want. You can leave the original mode, and come back to it.

 

And it is what the masters do. You can create your own harmonic motion to do tension and release by leaving the mode and returning. You can play nothing but extensions if you want. Or go out/atonal. The mode is just the home base to release the tension.

 

So Jazz+ posted a transcription of McCoy Tyner playing Passion Dance which is an F7sus drone. And he states that's Mixo because he's playing F7 on the first 4 bars. BUT he is not playing F7 on the subsequent bars and the mode didn't change.

 

Which is the whole point of what I'm saying. Since it's modal, you can do whatever the heck you want. Outlining the changes is not your goal.

 

I've heard modal done every which way, including playing bebop licks over it. The point is, it is limitless. But I venture to say that if you stayed literally within the mode the entire time (outlining the tonality of that mode as I described for a functional progression), and there's only a chord or two, it would be boring.

 

For a Beginning Student - Avoid Modal

 

Since the freedom of modal implies complexity and knowledge (or instinct) of tension and release, I would suggest that modal is something that should be avoided by beginners. One cannot understand how to play modal unless one is good at playing Functional progressions (Standards like Autumn Leaves, All the Things You Are, There Will Never Be Another You, On Green Dolphin Street, A-Train, Satin Doll, etc.).

 

The initial goal of a learning student is to know how to outline the changes well. One needs to be able to hear the harmony clearly on every indicated chord.

 

However, I think it is helpful to listen to modal to see what harmony they're implying at any particular moment, especially one as simple as So What, and to understand that the mode here is just home base.

 

[GovernorSilver]

Jazzwee, your opinion counts with me. Nice post and I agree with the last section.

[Jazzwee]

Thank you Gov! Fortunately, there is no debate in non-modal. So this continues the explanation on non-modal.

 

Modes simplify Communcation about Keys

 

The second aspect of Modes is that sometimes it is necessary to communicate the key or the correct applicable Scale.

 

A mode imparts some additional data that's not obvious without some tune analysis.

 

For example, in All the Things You Are, first four bars:

 

| Fm7 | (vi Aeolian)

| Bbm7 | (ii - Dorian)

| Eb7 | (V - Mixolydian)

| AbMaj7 | (I played as Lydian or #11 is assumed)

 

If you don't explain this with modes, you'd have to separately explain that the first chord is NOT a ii chord, i.e. you need to use the Ab Scale) and that you can't blindly play the 11 on the Maj7 chord since it's an avoid note.

 

It is much clearer to imply the scale by using a "mode" reference. Now all the masters knew what scale to play here so to imply that somehow they didn't need to know modes is ludicrous. However, using a mode is a faster way of communicating.

 

Alternatively, you could just put the roman numeral next to it and it would mean the same thing.

 

To me choosing a mode means you are implying a specific alteration to a chord. A chord may be represented by multiple modes/scales.

 

G7 - Mixolydian + all the alternatives below

G7b9 - HW Diminished or Alt

G7b5 - Alt or Diminished WT

G7#5 - Alt or WT

G7b9#9#11#5 - Alt Scale

etc.

 

When you pick a mode, you are deciding the alterations that you want. And of course in jazz, you are free to do this or not.

 

However, it would be important for a student to note that other than for V7 (Dominant) chords, there really is only one applicable mode for a chord in a tune. (again not talking modal tunes).

 

So a mode in itself doesn't teach you to play better. But it does clarify usage and clear terms and without the extra thinking required if you talk about a "key" (applicable major scale).

 

My teachers would constantly grill me on this. Because the idea is that you ought to know the CORRECT notes. Playing the D in Fm7 on ATTYA would be criminal (implying the selection of Eb scale vs. the correct Ab scale).

 

Misidentification of ii chords (vs. iii and vi) and I chord (vs. IV) are the most common issues that can be prevented if you know what mode is being referred.

 

BTW - Some people practice playing in different modes "fast", as some sort of technical thing (Dave Horne?). Aside from knowing the scale, I fail to see the purpose of this. Perhaps someone else does, but I would expect a student to know the mode and the implications of that with respect to chord voicing/alteration. But beyond that, the importance to me is nonexistent.

 

 

[Theo Verelst]

Just to try to explain I don't believe the invention of "modal" music was the holy grail, and shouldn't be taken by certain groups of people as delivering them an automaton to feel superior with their sophist pupils, to be used as a music "having" device: I think the whole "movement" in Bebob and the New Cool, etc, dealing with modes as scales with a beginning and an end, or as a template with go-to notes (or for all I care to be used to invert the set of go-to notes), wasn't saying that modal playing was the most important musical issue.

 

The modes still live in harmonic space by the connection of the (shifted) scale and a number of chords that could fit that scale. And if you play modal by using full scales, there's very few chords, given you use additions in the nice Jazz mode to actually sound good instead of as an overly greedy harmonic claim, that actually fit with a certain mode (shifted scale).

 

So, my idea is that of course it makes sense to be aware of the possible scales that can go with chords of a song in a certain key, with certain modulations, and it can be fun to have mechanism to play with that idea, but at the same time most musical values still come from the implied harmonies. And I believe that the Bob thought, and a lot of the freedom searching modal-sounding music makes the point that the freedom of restraints in Jazz comes with a price: knowing what is harmonically right, and what it is that you want to say.

 

Of course for study music, you may not want to say all too much, so that fits the modal bill. Turning it around to say the invention of "modal playing" breaks with hard rules present in all the modern Jazz of well known composers/soloists, is an incorrect conclusion that should be clear from normal education about western harmonic theory, mainly involving the V7-I tritonus solution as leitmotif.

 

Of course if certain keys are not allowed in a certain theoretical building, it is all the more reason for some rock oriented person to use exactly those notes, on purpose, and make something nice of that. Alternatively, playing modal scales or picking notes from the "right" scale and not showing taste while doing so like Peterson or so is more of a problem.

 

T.

 

[jjo]

Jazzwee: That's a very clear statement of your understanding and interesting to read. I would only note that, I assume you mean a D over the F minor would be fine as a passing note. You just wouldn't want to land on it on a strong beat.

[Jazzwee]

Jazzwee: That's a very clear statement of your understanding and interesting to read. I would only note that, I assume you mean a D over the F minor would be fine as a passing note. You just wouldn't want to land on it on a strong beat.

 

Yes, jjo. Thank you! Quite correct. That's exactly what I meant.

 

To expand on that a little further...

 

 

The mistake in viewing my simplistic explanation is in assuming that you're limited to diatonic harmony. Although a mode itself is identified as the sequence of notes inside diatonic harmony (inside the same scale), other than for the strong beats (quarter notes in jazz), you are free to play any of the 12 tones as passing notes.

 

So though I say strict notes in a mode would not include anything outside of the scale, no one actually plays like that. Going out of the scale provides brief moments of tension on the off beat which are resolved on the downbeat.

 

One needs to combine knowledge of a scale and chord construction with an INSTANT view of this:

 

1-b9-9-#9/b3-3-11-#11/b5-5-#5/b13-13-b7-7

 

If you can't identify all these instantly in all 12 keys, then you will be disadvantaged. If you can visualize all 12 tones from any starting note position, you can instantly view any mode.