Questions about scales and modes?

[Melodious Thunk]

The blessing and curse, er, beauty of modern technology is that everything has been recorded. The masters have left it all behind like books in a library.

 

Listen to and transcribe those recordings. The instruction is there. More importantly, context is there.

 

Jazz is ear music. If one cannot hear and see the shapes and patterns and internalize them, they should probably find another style of music to play.

 

Do you expect a beginner to go and listen to some jazz records and be able to figure out what chords are being played and then be able to reproduce them? I think that it is a lot easier to "hear" things once you have some scales and chords under your belt. Once you know how to play certain chords they are easy to pick out of tunes. I know this from playing guitar. I am a rank beginner when it comes to keyboard instrument though.

[JeffLearman]

Re: Tee's "is blues modal?" question... I have blues books by Tim Richards and Joe Diorio - neither of them mention modes - and I'm sure both of those guys know what modes are.

His question was "Is 'All Blues' [Miles Davis] modal?"

 

In any case, both are modal: both All Blues, as well as blues. Good blues steps out of single modality, but the vast majority of blues (even that which steps outside) lives in the context of the blues scale, or a few blues scales.

 

Are there ways to teach or discuss blues without discussing modes? No doubt. There are lots of ways to skin a cat.

[ProfD]

The blessing and curse, er, beauty of modern technology is that everything has been recorded. The masters have left it all behind like books in a library.

 

Listen to and transcribe those recordings. The instruction is there. More importantly, context is there.

 

Jazz is ear music. If one cannot hear and see the shapes and patterns and internalize them, they should probably find another style of music to play.

 

Do you expect a beginner to go and listen to some jazz records and be able to figure out what chords are being played and then be able to reproduce them? I think that it is a lot easier to "hear" things once you have some scales and chords under your belt. Once you know how to play certain chords they are easy to pick out of tunes. I know this from playing guitar. I am a rank beginner when it comes to keyboard instrument though.

Start with easy tunes and build your way up. Otherwise, if you're a rank beginner, find a Jazz piano teacher as mentioned already.

[JeffLearman]

The blessing and curse, er, beauty of modern technology is that everything has been recorded. The masters have left it all behind like books in a library.

 

Listen to and transcribe those recordings. The instruction is there. More importantly, context is there.

 

Jazz is ear music. If one cannot hear and see the shapes and patterns and internalize them, they should probably find another style of music to play.

 

Do you expect a beginner to go and listen to some jazz records and be able to figure out what chords are being played and then be able to reproduce them? I think that it is a lot easier to "hear" things once you have some scales and chords under your belt. Once you know how to play certain chords they are easy to pick out of tunes. I know this from playing guitar. I am a rank beginner when it comes to keyboard instrument though.

The answer to that is to start with the simpler tunes and work your way up.

 

As I said above, there are lots of ways to skin a cat, and different people learn best using different methods. I'm self taught, mostly due to laziness and I play what I wanna play for the fun of it. So I learned by ear, and I still learn best by ear, and I have a hard time understanding music from notation simply because it's an unfamiliar language so I have to spend time and energy translating. The more one does that, the easier it gets, but I haven't done nearly enough.

 

And I don't know jazz, because I haven't paid my dues. I know a few jazz tunes, and I use a lot of jazz chords, and I know a ii V I when I hear it, or a III VI II V I, and a bunch of other common ones (especially ones we hear in blues). But there's a huge gap between that and a jazz cat. I'm interested in closing that gap considerably, though I doubt I'll ever be much of a "jazz cat".

 

But it's obvious that there's lots to be learned, and a number of ways to learn it. IMHO, the more ways you try, the better off you'll be.

[TrapperJack]

Louis Armstrong thought "jazz (was) ear music", and then he went to Chicago, into a bigger fish pond, and learned to read. Jazz is no more (or less) "ear music" than any other form of music on this planet.

 

I've seen many holes in some cat skins round about these woods, and the pelts haven't been worth tanning. There might be many ways to skin a cat, but some ways are better than others. Work with a good teacher.

 

John, where the m6 chord is not a tonic minor, or it is not a chord resulting from decorative voice leading, a passing chord, we analyse the progression to see if we can strengthen the root movement of the progression (in a genre where the cycle is important: in genres where IV-V-I is the characteristic cadence, we probably wouldn't bother replacing the m6 chord with a iim7b5 - v7b9 pair). Such a decision often is a trigger to reharmonize other parts of the melody.

 

Your other comments about what notes are possible, out of 12 semitones, (why rule out any of the 12?) don't help people who want to remain within the style, or genre, of most music: they most often make the music sound odd.

 

If the improvising is done with the notes of the chords, the major scales that create the chords, the Dorian and Mixolydian mode, and the ascending melodic minor, then nothing will sound odd ("wrong notes"). The worst that will happen in terms of note choice is that the improvised solo will sound "predictable". This is a very, very fine place for a beginning improviser to find himself or herself.

[GovernorSilver]

Re: Tee's "is blues modal?" question... I have blues books by Tim Richards and Joe Diorio - neither of them mention modes - and I'm sure both of those guys know what modes are.

His question was "Is 'All Blues' [Miles Davis] modal?"

 

Jeff, are you a lawyer? Just wondering...

 

In any case, both are modal: both All Blues, as well as blues.

 

Just saying that in the books by the two authors I mentioned, there's no mention of modes. I'm not enough of an expert on the blues to make the call on whether or not they're modal.

[Jazzwee]

Modal From Wiki

 

- slow-moving harmonic rhythm, where single chords may last four to sixteen or more measures

- pedal points[3] and drones

- absent or suppressed standard functional chord progressions

- quartal harmonies or melodies

- polytonality

 

First of all, I don't know where the "mode" is in Blues. At least minor blues is Dorian mode. Major blues -- mixolydian can't really be considered modal because in my mind, the presence of dominants scream TONALITY.

 

Most modal tunes in Jazz are dorian mode and SUS (which is dorian mode too I suppose, but just voiced in quartal harmony).

 

Modal tunes have an unclear tonal center which allows one to play with that tonality and give it motion. If the harmonic progression is dominant in the tune (I don't mean a V chord), it can't really be called modal.

 

The specific vagueness of the harmony is typical of modal in my mind.

 

 

[Melodious Thunk]

I know that most everybody says to find a good teacher, but I am quite impoverished at the moment and it will be quite a while before I will be able to afford a teacher. I just figure that in in mean while I can work on fundamentals so that when I can afford a teacher I already have a lot of the basics covered.

[CEB]

The blessing and curse, er, beauty of modern technology is that everything has been recorded. The masters have left it all behind like books in a library.

 

Listen to and transcribe those recordings. The instruction is there. More importantly, context is there.

 

Jazz is ear music. If one cannot hear and see the shapes and patterns and internalize them, they should probably find another style of music to play.

 

Do you expect a beginner to go and listen to some jazz records and be able to figure out what chords are being played and then be able to reproduce them? I think that it is a lot easier to "hear" things once you have some scales and chords under your belt. Once you know how to play certain chords they are easy to pick out of tunes. I know this from playing guitar. I am a rank beginner when it comes to keyboard instrument though.

 

What you are asking about about is not exclusive to keyboards. I would learn it on guitar first. It will port over.

[Jazz+]

 

Most modal tunes in Jazz are dorian mode and SUS (which is dorian mode too I suppose, but just voiced in quartal harmony).

 

 

SUS is Mixolydian, not Dorian. For example , "Maiden Voyage".

[Jazz+]

 

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2APeWLBhxD8

[16251]

 

Most modal tunes in Jazz are dorian mode and SUS (which is dorian mode too I suppose, but just voiced in quartal harmony).

 

 

SUS is Mixolydian, not Dorian. For example , "Maiden Voyage".

So, if first chord is Dsus, you say, play D mixo (which is the V of G?) How do you rationalize the F#?

[GovernorSilver]

Modal From Wiki

 

- slow-moving harmonic rhythm, where single chords may last four to sixteen or more measures

- pedal points[3] and drones

- absent or suppressed standard functional chord progressions

- quartal harmonies or melodies

- polytonality

 

First of all, I don't know where the "mode" is in Blues. At least minor blues is Dorian mode. Major blues -- mixolydian can't really be considered modal because in my mind, the presence of dominants scream TONALITY.

 

This is consistent with what I read elsewhere about modal tunes vs. blues. Thanks!

[I-missRichardTee]

I recall my teacher long ago showing me something I never forgot. He played all 12 13th chords, and they all fit nicely over the Blues.

I am thinking that Blues transcends harmony, whether it be ( so called modal harmony ) slow moving or not.

Blues to me, are magical. The flavor of Blues is so strong, it can be superimposed upon harmonies.

That is a hint of why I think there is a connection between mode, Blues and Raga.

I am speaking from intuition not wiki or a text definition. I have been playing the Blues a long long long time, along with music in general. I have had a lot of time to dwell on this. I am not scholarly by nature, but instinct or intuition bound.

But since we are a Wiki society

"A raga (literally "colour, hue" but also "beauty, melody"; ] is one of the melodic modes used in Indian classical music.

A raga uses a series of five or more musical notes upon which a melody is constructed. However, the way the notes are approached and rendered in musical phrases and the mood they convey are more important in defining a raga than the notes themselves....."

Wiki is not perfect by any means, but there it is as a starting point.

I would add, " a SET series of 5 or more notes" upon which a melody is constructed.

 

I am not saying Raga IS Blues. I am saying I sense the connection between the two.

 

I still have reservations about modal jazz. Greek Modes are ancient, and did not use harmony the way we do. So some license has certainly been taken by using the term modal jazz. I get it, but it is still licence.

Why can't I too, have license to see a connection between Raga and Blues?

 

[I-missRichardTee]

Jazz+ Holy moolee

Herbie just took my head off with that amazing solo. That is a new one for me : "All Blues"... he is sooo far ahead of me, and to whatever degree most if not all other players of piano jazz!!! Sorry, Herbie has always been my North star for modern jazz. Unreal Amazing Astonishing ego demolishing too.

Thank you

[JeffLearman]

Modal From Wiki

 

- slow-moving harmonic rhythm, where single chords may last four to sixteen or more measures

- pedal points[3] and drones

- absent or suppressed standard functional chord progressions

- quartal harmonies or melodies

- polytonality

 

First of all, I don't know where the "mode" is in Blues. At least minor blues is Dorian mode. Major blues -- mixolydian can't really be considered modal because in my mind, the presence of dominants scream TONALITY.

 

Most modal tunes in Jazz are dorian mode and SUS (which is dorian mode too I suppose, but just voiced in quartal harmony).

 

Modal tunes have an unclear tonal center which allows one to play with that tonality and give it motion. If the harmonic progression is dominant in the tune (I don't mean a V chord), it can't really be called modal.

 

The specific vagueness of the harmony is typical of modal in my mind.

 

Thanks, I stand corrected. By that definition, neither Blues nor All Blues is really quite modal. However, compared to the jazz that preceded it, All Blues is "less non-modal" or something like that. But, it uses a standard chord pattern, as does the vast majority of blues, so doesn't fit that definition well at all.

 

At the local level, there's an annoyingly high number of blues guitarists who play it "modally", though. And yes, I'm taking liberties with the term "mode" to include the minor pentatonic, with optional flat 5.

[Jazzwee]

 

Most modal tunes in Jazz are dorian mode and SUS (which is dorian mode too I suppose, but just voiced in quartal harmony).

 

 

SUS is Mixolydian, not Dorian. For example , "Maiden Voyage".

 

THAT is the genius of it. You MAY think that SUS implies Mixo but in Maiden Voyage you NEVER voice the 3rd. As you know the entire tune emphasizes quartals. Even the voicings of So What is quartals. And you know that tune is dorian.

 

By playing quartal voicings, it is never clear if you're playing a real functional SUS or not. Of course you are not and that's the whole intent. So vague tonality. The SUS never resolves.

 

 

[Jazzwee]

I was just talking to Michelle on another thread and we were talking about approaches to Oye Como Va. In theory Oye Como Va is |A- D7| (Vamp) so it's ii-V.

 

Except that Michel Camilo in this video played it as a Dorian mode, which meant he just focused on the A-. But the effect of understanding this is huge. With dorian mode, you are free to play ALL the diatonic chords. I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-V7. Plus an occasional half-step chord away for tension. Again like Little Sunflower. Opens up the possibilities instead of being stuck to a pentatonic like Santana's solo.

 

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHBtUyj4zeE

[frogmonkey]

I know that most everybody says to find a good teacher, but I am quite impoverished at the moment and it will be quite a while before I will be able to afford a teacher. I just figure that in in mean while I can work on fundamentals so that when I can afford a teacher I already have a lot of the basics covered.

 

That's what's great about the modes-- you don't need a teacher. Learn the modes and practice them all until you own them. Compose and improvise with them. The information is readily available

[Jazz+]

" A persistent myth about sus chords is that the "fourth takes the place of the third." Jazz pianists, however, often voice the third with a sus chord. The third is (usually) voiced above the fourth."

[Jazz+]

"G Mixolydian is the scale, or mode, that is usually played over a Gsus chord."

[Jazzwee]

" A persistent myth about sus chords is that the "fourth takes the place of the third." Jazz pianists, however, often voice the third with a sus chord. The third is (usually) voiced above the fourth."

 

Exactly Jazz+. You and I know this. To me a true Sus means there's a third. But that wasn't Herbie's intent. Although Maiden Voyage chords are designated as Sus chords, we both know that it really has "Maiden Voyage" voicings of stacks of 4ths and 5ths.

 

So this specific voicing allows one to deviate and take on different harmonic flavors during the solo. Thus, assuming the character of modal.

 

I understand that from a textbook definition, you know what you are talking about. I'm just acknowledging the genius of Herbie, Bill Evans, McCoy Tyner, etc. in understanding the quartal harmonies and how one can play them differently if you look at them as quartal harmony.

 

Another example is Afro Blue as played by McCoy Tyner. Fm vamp. So one could assume that's really Fm. But Tyner played it as Fsus (or quartal voicings). Thus for me, seeing dorian implies I can take either the standard dorian mode approach, or the quartal harmony approach. Or switch to either one during the solo.

 

 

[Jazz+]

Jazzwee, Maiden Voyage is not really played in stacked 4ths. It is voiced with a C triad voicing in the right hand (G C E G ) with a D and A open 5th played underneath in the left hand.

[Jazz+]

C/D

 

C triad (G C E G ) played with the right hand over D A in the left hand. Scale = D Mixolydian.

 

[video:youtube]

[GovernorSilver]

I hear a C major triad on top of the D bass too, whenever I listen to Herbie's piano part for the opening bars of Maiden Voyage.

[Jazzwee]

Yep. No 3rd. 5ths are just inversions of fourths. There's a third interval in So What voicing on top too. But the suggested chord is not the original minor key.

 

Just curious though, what do you play on Maiden Voyage? What do you think of?

 

 

[16251]

"G Mixolydian is the scale, or mode, that is usually played over a Gsus chord."

Isn't first chord of maiden voyage a D root (with an A-7 on top.) You say mixolydian but for someone trying to learn this, wouldn't the root have some bearing, as to the scale?

[Jazz+]

Maiden Voyage

 

| D mixolydian | " | " | " |

| F mixolydian | " | " | " |

[Jazzwee]

IMHO, then you're thinking functional harmony over a modal which is more limiting. The whole point to modal is being able to stray from functional harmony.

 

I suppose it's the same concept as playing bebop lines over So What. You could do that, but you could also leave it.

 

This is why dorian mode is so specifically freeing because instead of being stuck on one chord, you can play seven.

 

My own personal choices look for opportunities to look for vagueness in harmony and take advantage of that. My band really focuses on modal so this is just close to my heart.

[Jazz+]

Not thinking functional... it seems you are projecting your own thought process.... Mixolydian is no more or less modal than dorian.