Ravenscroft: new VILabs piano

[LX88]

It's nice to hear from Lance at VI Labs who I spoke with at length at winter NAMM.

 

So yes I would like to start using the Ravenscroft sample but yes , I am on a budget.

 

And I did speak to a computer tech today about helping me set this up. He suggested using a desktop and he thought that I could use something with at least 8 gig memory.

 

I don't plan to gig with the Ravenscroft sample. This will strictly be for home use.

 

So Lance if you see this.... you also mentioned a piece of outboard gear that might be required to get the most out of this. I think I recall something to do with digital to analoge conversion or something similar.

 

Also, I assume that the midi signal generally travels via USB to most computers... would this be correct or are there options?

 

You might be surprised how many other people besides myself are intimidated with getting software sounds up and running. Finding controllers, connectors etc. can be somewhat of an issue for us non - techies.

[SK]

Is anyone else noticing some rather annoying high pitched resonance when notes are held? It's particularly clear if I play an octave at C1+C2 with a velocity of 80+ and either hold it or use the sustain pedal. There's all kinds of high pitched "ringing" going on there that doesn't sound natural (or nice). The more microphone positions I activate the worse it seems and these sounds get out of phase with each other so the sounds will pulse. I'm using Sennheiser (HD 202) headphones which might be accentuating the problem, but still ... there's sure a lot of ugly stuff happening there, the worst of it at 1800Hz (some of which I can EQ out).

There are some artifacts (that can be dialed down) in most sampled virtual pianos I've tried. And I can't say if I hear the same frequencies you hear, since I don't use the headphones you do.

 

I've had Ravenscroft from the start, got it a day or two before it was released, and I've tried everything I can think of to make it sound its best - just because I want to see how good it can sound. It has much going for it, even with nothing added.

 

I used to use all 3 mics, but all 3 can introduce a a mass of frequencies that are harder to control. Now I generally use only one mic, usually the side mic which is less bright and more solid, and I've added some analog type plug-ins (mostly Slate stuff) which tame the piano frequencies in a good way. Otherwise, bringing down the velocity can help too.

[Steve Nathan]

Is anyone else noticing some rather annoying high pitched resonance when notes are held?

 

Paul. Welcome to the forum. I've not noticed what your hearing and don't want to speculate (and I certainly don't want to be "preachy" ). I'd visit their site and use the contact form to see if Lance can help. Or you might just wait a bit, as he tends to show up here whenever a thread on his products gets active.

In the meantime, I'll try to duplicate your issue tomorrow, and report back.

[Paul Pomeroy]

I've tried everything I can think of to make it sound its best - just because I want to see how good it can sound. It has much going for it, even with nothing added.

 

I used to use all 3 mics, but all 3 can introduce a a mass of frequencies that are harder to control. Now I generally use only one mic, usually the side mic which is less bright and more solid, and I've added some analog type plug-ins (mostly Slate stuff) which tame the piano frequencies in a good way. Otherwise, bringing down the velocity can help too.

 

Thanks, SK. It's surprisingly fussy to get it just right, or at least that's been my experience. It was complicated by the fact that my Kurzweil was not set up right for the velocity values it was sending. Things got a bit easier once that was fixed.

 

I've found a mix of all 4 mics that sounds good to me and I've played with all the other settings to get as close to "just right" as I can now. I've just not been able to get rid of these high pitched artifacts. I have another set of headphones to use but they're heavy on the bass which I don't really want.

 

Mainly I just wanted to see if anyone else was noticing them as much as I was. It seemed really unlikely to me that it was getting all these rave reviews with that kind of problem so I figured it was either an uncommon problem or one that was easily fixed (for everyone but me).

[Paul Pomeroy]

Is anyone else noticing some rather annoying high pitched resonance when notes are held?

 

Paul. Welcome to the forum. I've not noticed what your hearing and don't want to speculate (and I certainly don't want to be "preachy" ). I'd visit their site and use the contact form to see if Lance can help. Or you might just wait a bit, as he tends to show up here whenever a thread on his products gets active.

In the meantime, I'll try to duplicate your issue tomorrow, and report back.

 

Thanks, Steve, for the welcome and the suggestions. I need to get some samples of this prepared that I can send to them so they can (hopefully) hear what I'm hearing and see how I've got things set up. Please let me know if you can recreate. Just play some big phat chords in the vicinity of c1-c2 and let them sustain. You (or at least I) can't miss them.

 

Here's the best setup I've found so far (although I'm still using EQ to dampen the sound at 1800hz: Ravenscroft 275 Setup (screen shot)

[Ashville.Guru]

Is anyone else noticing some rather annoying high pitched resonance when notes are held?

I need to get some samples of this prepared that I can send to them so they can (hopefully) hear what I'm hearing and see how I've got things set up. Please let me know if you can recreate. Just play some big phat chords in the vicinity of c1-c2 and let them sustain. You (or at least I) can't miss them.

The nice thing here is that it's possible to objectively capture what you're experiencing. An audio recording with an accompanying MIDI file will make it crystal clear as to exactly what you're talking about - in a way no amount of words ever can. And will lead to a quick and definite resolution of the issue. The forum doesn't allow attachments, but you can always use SoundCloud/Dropbox links.

 

In this case, it's the recording which is worth a thousand words...!

 

- Guru

[Paul Pomeroy]

After a lot more futzing around I managed to isolate which notes were causing the problem: C3 and G2 (per the keyboard on the Ravenscroft preference panel). I also refined the EQ so that it eliminates the "ringing" with minimal impact on the tonal quality of the notes. I had to dampen both 1780 and 1860 Hz. I posted a screenshot of the EQ settings on Dropbox. I also added a link to a screenshot of my Ravenscroft settings in my previous post here. I'll see if I can't get a recording with and without EQ up here in a bit.

[VI Labs]

After a lot more futzing around I managed to isolate which notes were causing the problem: C3 and G2 (per the keyboard on the Ravenscroft preference panel). I also refined the EQ so that it eliminates the "ringing" with minimal impact on the tonal quality of the notes. I had to dampen both 1780 and 1860 Hz. I posted a screenshot of the EQ settings on Dropbox. I also added a link to a screenshot of my Ravenscroft settings in my previous post here. I'll see if I can't get a recording with and without EQ up here in a bit.

 

Hi Paul, I wanted to comment on this so everyone isn't scratching their heads on what it is. I think you're hearing some of the active duplex which is very lively and powerful on this piano. The C1+C2 combo does have a strong partial in the duplex. If it's bothering you, then yes it seems a good notch filter at the frequencies you specify would help without taking away from the rest of the tone. Others here may have more suggestions once they've heard what you're referring to. I hope this gives some insight.

 

Lance @ VI Labs

[Steve Nathan]

OK. I found that when I bang C4 pretty hard and short, I hear a sympathetic sort of ringing. The ringing frequency is 987.767 hz (it's a B and I looked it up ). I'd not noticed this before, but I've heard things just like this from real pianos. I guess it's never been noticeable in the way I play.

So, Lance... Forgive the ignorance, but what do you mean when you say "an active duplex"??

[VI Labs]

OK. I found that when I bang C4 pretty hard and short, I hear a sympathetic sort of ringing. The ringing frequency is 987.767 hz (it's a B and I looked it up ). I'd not noticed this before, but I've heard things just like this from real pianos. I guess it's never been noticeable in the way I play.

So, Lance... Forgive the ignorance, but what do you mean when you say "an active duplex"??

 

I should have been more clear and said it has an active duplex scale. This duplex scale (also known sometimes as aliquot strings) is the section of shorter stringing in the treble that resonates with other notes played and adds sparkle and brilliance to the tone. On the Ravenscroft, it has a tuned front and rear duplex scale and is quite active which means it responds noticeably as you play harder--it becomes activated and heard blending in with the overall tone. I think of it similar to mutation stops or mixtures on an organ that add additional harmonics.

 

To quote the makers of Ravenscroft directly, the tuned duplex strings "are sort like little tonal turbo chargers in that they begin to come into play as the volume accelerates. This adds two additional layers of tonality to the sound so that, as the piano is played louder, the tonal spectrum changes color. Although our sound is very clean and pure, its also multidimensional. I strive for multiple layers, or dimensions, of complex harmonics that can be heard, sensed, and felt without sacrificing a strong emphasis on a bold fundamental tone.

 

And I think you'll agree we all hear things in slightly different ways. And a piano like the Ravenscroft has a complex tone and this may or may not be what is being described by Paul. Maybe others can chime in, but I hope this helps.

 

Lance @ VI Labs

[Paul Pomeroy]

The nice thing here is that it's possible to objectively capture what you're experiencing. An audio recording with an accompanying MIDI file will make it crystal clear as to exactly what you're talking about - in a way no amount of words ever can. And will lead to a quick and definite resolution of the issue. The forum doesn't allow attachments, but you can always use SoundCloud/Dropbox links.

 

In this case, it's the recording which is worth a thousand words...!

 

- Guru

 

I've gone ahead and posted a video (screen capture) up on Vimeo. It seemed the easiest way to demonstrate what I have been talking about. One thing to note: although you can hear the high-pitched ringing noise in the video when I've got the EQ bypassed, the sound on the video came out somewhat muted compared to what I hear via my headphones when I'm playing. It's much more pronounced than what the video might imply.

 

One other thing: this annoying kind of ringing is only happening on the two keys you see me playing (G2 and C3). To be sure, there are overtones on all the keys -- beautiful ones, I might add -- but none of them jump out of the mix like on those two keys (at least not as I have things set up at the moment).

[Steve Nathan]

Wish I could help, but even with my $500 headphones, my 64 year old ears could not hear anything objectionable. Maybe someone else (younger ) will be more helpful.

[Paul Pomeroy]

And I think you'll agree we all hear things in slightly different ways. And a piano like the Ravenscroft has a complex tone and this may or may not be what is being described by Paul. Maybe others can chime in, but I hope this helps.

 

Lance @ VI Labs

 

Thanks for the feedback, Lance. This is one of those "tough to diagnose" issues. Is it objective? Subjective? or a little bit of both ... I don't know. I do know that what I'm hearing is not "very clean and pure" and that I can see the "guilty" overtones when the EQ analyzer is set to show the Pre-EQ signal. But it could be something in the path between my computer and my ears that is making it so noticeable to me.

 

I've listened to about every video I could find out there demonstrating the software and I love how they sound. Unfortunately, that's not what I'm getting out of the software here (so far) ... It's been a bit frustrating.

[Paul Pomeroy]

Wish I could help, but even with my $500 headphones, my 64 year old ears could not hear anything objectionable. Maybe someone else (younger ) will be more helpful.

Thanks for trying, Steve. Much appreciated.

 

You're 64? You look younger in your avatar; and who knows how you could hear anything with all that bar slapping going on!

[slowtraveler]

Hi, Paul. Does turning off sympathetic resonance affect this issue in any way? Also, have you experimented with a completely different output path (including a different DAC) to see if what you're hearing is some form of signal processing misbehavior unrelated to Ravenscroft?

[MalH]

Definitely a very pronounced harmonic on the video and one that would annoy me over time.

 

I think many potential problems in a real piano that are subtle when heard from a reasonable distance away (at least player distance) are accentuated on close-miced software pianos, since often the mics are placed inches from the strings. If you played a real piano with your head so close I'm sure it would sound objectionable. Is this a close mic perspective?

[Paul Pomeroy]

Hi, Paul. Does turning off sympathetic resonance affect this issue in any way? Also, have you experimented with a completely different output path (including a different DAC) to see if what you're hearing is some form of signal processing misbehavior unrelated to Ravenscroft?

Adjustments to either/both the sympathetic and pedal resonance knobs don't eliminate or reduce the noise. Here's a link to a screenshot I put up on Dropbox that shows the Ravenscroft set up I like the sound of best. I've tried out all kinds of settings looking for a fix for this and keep going back to the initial/default setup thinking there must be some simple adjustment that works as I seem to be the only person having this problem ...

 

As for the DAC, I have a device that inputs a signal via USB and outputs to headphones and line-out RCA jacks. The path while recording the video though would be all internal to the computer. I did try listening via two different sets of headphones, plugged directly into the back of the computer. The only difference I could hear was attributable to the headphones as one pair is bass-heavy at the expense of the high end.

[Paul Pomeroy]

Definitely a very pronounced harmonic on the video and one that would annoy me over time.

Good to know I'm not the only one hearing it! (Okay ..., not really "good" -- more like reassuring.)

 

I think many potential problems in a real piano that are subtle when heard from a reasonable distance away (at least player distance) are accentuated on close-miced software pianos, since often the mics are placed inches from the strings. If you played a real piano with your head so close I'm sure it would sound objectionable. Is this a close mic perspective?

See the link in my previous post here to a screenshot of how I have it set up. I'm using a combination of all 4 mic placements. Consistent with the point you're making, this harmonic is most noticeable with the "Close" and "Side" mics. There are combinations (mixes) of those two that will actually pulse because the two different recordings of the harmonics get out of phase.

[Phred]

Wish I could help, but even with my $500 headphones, my 64 year old ears could not hear anything objectionable. Maybe someone else (younger ) will be more helpful.

 

Yes, but did you pay full price for those headphones?

 

I am sorry - I couldn't resist... Please don't ban me

 

 

[area51recording]

Evil......pure evil

[EscapeRocks]

Wish I could help, but even with my $500 headphones, my 64 year old ears could not hear anything objectionable. Maybe someone else (younger ) will be more helpful.

 

Yes, but did you pay full price for those headphones?

 

I am sorry - I couldn't resist... Please don't ban me

 

 

We won't ban you, we'll D-Ban you. Now eat a donut. As Gny. Sgt. Hartman said, "they're paying for it, you eat it."

[Ashville.Guru]

It seemed the easiest way to demonstrate what I have been talking about. One thing to note: although you can hear the high-pitched ringing noise in the video when I've got the EQ bypassed, the sound on the video came out somewhat muted compared to what I hear via my headphones when I'm playing. It's much more pronounced than what the video might imply.

While the screen capture video is certainly more useful, it's technically not the best way to capture any possible issue. You never know what sampling/compression/other artefacts your video capture program is inducing. So the best way would be to share the 'pure' output of the Ravenscroft piano, as a raw .wav file. You'd have to use whichever DAW you're familiar with to do this. If you're not using a DAW, a tool like Audacity would do the trick.

 

I'm assuming the the TrueKeys engine can't directly record and output .wav files, like Pianoteq can.

 

This is one of those "tough to diagnose" issues. Is it objective? Subjective? or a little bit of both ... I don't know.

 

Actually, no, it's not tough to diagnose, and the subjectivity can be eliminated - once you share the direct wav output of the Ravenscroft piano. That way you're eliminating everything 'downstream' of the signal chain - the soundcard, headphones, etc.

 

The math and the logic is quite simple, really. The more people who can't hear the artefact in a pure .wav recording, the less likely that it's a problem with the Ravenscroft piano.

 

- Guru

 

 

[Paul Pomeroy]

... So the best way would be to share the 'pure' output of the Ravenscroft piano, as a raw .wav file.

 

... It's not tough to diagnose, and the subjectivity can be eliminated - once you share the direct wav output of the Ravenscroft piano. That way you're eliminating everything 'downstream' of the signal chain - the soundcard, headphones, etc.

 

The math and the logic is quite simple, really. The more people who can't hear the artefact in a pure .wav recording, the less likely that it's a problem with the Ravenscroft piano.

 

- Guru

Okay, I put a .wav file out on Dropbox along with a midi file of what I played and the "sheet music," such as it is, in a PDF (the midi file was created with the default export track to midi function in Logic Pro 9 -- no guarantees it will work for you ...).

 

I created the midi file using the step editor. All notes have a velocity of 85. You might not hear the harmonics on the first chord you hear but should on the following. These are played using the default ("right out of the box") settings for the Ravenscroft 275. I've added no additional EQ, reverb, compression, etc., and none of the settings were adjusted.

 

The high pitched harmonics I've been talking about are pitched somewhere up in the G4 to C5 range (or maybe G5-C6). It happens right when the notes are played and fades out in 2-3 seconds.

[PianoMan51]

I gig and record with the Ravenscroft, and play a Baldwin SF-10 (7') at home.

 

- When I play the grand, especially loud, there is a whole world of overtones, whistles, ringing, etc. that can happen. Sometimes I'll stop, thinking the phone is ringing or some piece of gear is making a sound. But no, it's just that certain combinations give unexpected results. Nobody else notices this but me. This is a real, high level, but imperfect piano.

 

- The Ravenscroft close samples at the very highest velocities are pretty biting. But a reminder, on a real piano you have to play with extreme weight to achieve those sounds. On a controller it can be really easy, depending on the keyboard setup. I like to setup my controller so that I normally play in the lower velocities, getting a nice warm sound with relaxed arms, and only get the biting samples when I really lean into it.

 

- When I record I like more volume and more definition while I'm actually playing the track. Typically 6dB hotter, using the Close samples. But when I'm mixing I'll drop the volume back 6dB and switch to other, less defined samples which sound more like the piano that a listener would hear.

 

- When I play live I have the Mod Wheel set to adjust the 'Tone' (Brightness) setting in Ravenscroft and use only the Close samples. As I adjust the Tone, I also offset that adjustment with volume, bringing the volume up as I turn the Tone lower, and lowering the volume as I bring the Tone higher. When I turn the Tone way up and turn the volume down, the solo sound is quite harsh but cuts beautifully with a loud busy band and still sounds like a real piano without adding aural fog in the mids and lows.

 

- Finally, sorry, but your wav file sounds pretty much like a real piano to me. IMHO of course.

[Reezekeys]

I haven't checked out the Ravenscroft or the poster's example file but I will chime in to say that when I eased up on my playing dynamics, my DP (the old NI "New York Piano") felt & sounded much better to play. The middle velocities are where the samples "sing" more than "bite", if I can use those words. I think everyone should take a midi "scope" program and see exactly what velocities they're sending to their piano VI. Things improved for me greatly when I adjusted both my playing dynamics and my keyboard's dynamics setting (both the sensitivity and curve) to coax the most range and best sounding samples from my piano.

[MalH]

I found the harmonic much more noticeable on the video than the wav, the latter being acceptable to my ears. Also I'd recommend reproducing it with a single note to ensure it's not being created as an additional harmonic caused by the interference between two notes and sympathetic resonance.

[Dave Osoff]

Analog Addict - Glad to hear it sounds and feels good to play with your Receptor. I just bought a Receptor VIP II (16Gig Ram, 256 GB SSD) and am planning to purchase this Ravenscroft soon to complement the Ivory American Grand D and K Sounds Epic Grand I also have installed. I think each will continue to have their place, but the demos I am hearing of the Ravenscroft sound wonderful - very inspiring sound!

 

If anyone else is using with a Receptor, I'd be interested in more feedback since it looks like this is a special Muse Receptor version of the Ravenscroft I will have to buy (I'm still looking back over this long thread and appreciate all the discussion about the different samples, mic placements, nuances in the sound, etc... I will be using it with a Motif ES8 for recording and either a Roland A70 or Nord Stage 2 73 live,

[Dave Ferris]

Just had a rehearsal today where I was playing on someone's setup using this.

 

My impressions fwiw- wow..not too good to put it nicely. Much prefer the CP4 or Nord Piano.

 

The keyboard was an older Yamaha P85, running mono through a Homer Simpson speaker..oops that's a Samson. I'm guessing though that if any of those negatives were improved upon, I'd feel much differently.

 

In fact I remember it playing and sounding pretty amazing at NAMM with the Kawai VPC-1 and Focal (twin ?) monitors.

[Michael Wright]

Just had my first experience with this at a rehearsal today. Initial impressions - wow..not too good to put it nicely. Much prefer the CP4 or Nord Piano.

 

The keyboard was an older Yamaha P85, running mono through a Homer Simpson speaker..oops that's a Samson. I'm guessing though that if any of those negatives were improved upon, I'd feel much differently.

 

In fact I remember it playing and sounding much better at NAMM with the Kawai VPC-1 and Focal (twin ?) monitors.

I initially used it with a P-85 through some Sonolab speakers Dave. I was impressed, but moreso with the VPC and some Yamaha speakers.

[LX88]

I can't imagine that this sample would translate well into mono.