Thinking of Building a PC for Live Performance

[Markay]

Ergonomics - think of it like a head-up display. I often sing, facing and engaging the audience, and having a big bulky laptop on my keyboards is an impediment and a distraction, and kills the aesthetic of my rig, IMHO .

 

I find closing the laptop lid and tucking it out of sight, suitably mounted in a case, very ideal. The case mounting allows me to neatly pre-wire lots of stuff, including power strip and other wall-warts, so the whole thing is as convenient as a hardware rack. My setup time is less than a minute! I'll start a thread sometime later with pics.

 

The 8" tablet can be mounted very inconspicuously on to my keyboards, visible only to me. As mentioned in the other thread, I dont *need* the tablet for patch selection, but the visual info (patch names, etc) from a convenient location is quite welcome.

 

- Guru

Kool

[CaptainUnderpant]

To the OP - you might want to reconsider the whole project, in favour of a laptop, like @Markay suggests.

 

Moreover, I get the feeling that you don't have a lot of experience with softsynths, especially in a live context. Building a computer without having a first-hand experience of your requirements amounts to putting the cart before the horse, IMHO. My suggestion is to use a laptop to understand the nature of the beast, and you'll know exactly how to design your own PC. If you still feel the need, that is...!

Good luck.

 

- Guru

 

Thank you ALL for helping me figure this out.

 

Yes you are correct, I am new to the soft synth world. Fortunately, I DO have a laptop which I can use first to see how the hole process works. It is an Asus Zenbook with 1.7 GHz Core i5 with 4 GB ram and a 256 SSD, so it will be passable for temporary duty. A friend has also lent me an M-Audio interface, so I can get up and running.

 

If I do commit to the soft synth world, I do see that building out a purpose built PC makes more sense (at least at this moment). The power, flexibility, upgradability and cost is much less. I have built out many office and home computers,(PC's, Servers, HTPC's). I HIGHLY favor desktops over laptops. But your point about USAGE is appropriate, and I will be able to do a better job identifying "how to skin the cat" after I have some time on the court.

 

Ergonomics -

The 8" tablet can be mounted very inconspicuously on to my keyboards, visible only to me. As mentioned in the other thread, I dont *need* the tablet for patch selection, but the visual info (patch names, etc) from a convenient location is quite welcome.

 

- Guru

 

It actually sounds like we have the same basic idea regarding functionality, just with different hardware to get to the same place.

 

But maybe I can "cool my jets" with a PC build and figure out all the other aspects of the soft synth world with my laptop. They do say that the devil is in the details.

 

Thanks again. I knew everybody here would point me in the right direction. Hopefully I can come up with some good solution and report back.

 

-John

 

 

[Sven Golly]

So my specially build Win 7-hosted gigging machines are on a shelf while I use Apple iPad and Macbook Pro.

 

This.

The thumbs up appears to be a tad premature in this case, brother S.G!

 

- Guru

 

Perhaps, but I'm still not changing from my MBP & iPad on stage anytime soon.

[CaptainUnderpant]

Perhaps, but I'm still not changing from my MBP & iPad on stage anytime soon.

 

There is no doubt that MAC & Mainstage is the way to go. It was watching a MainStage tutorials on youtube that got me very excited about soft synths for performance. I just don't have any MACs, nor am I familiar with the OS.

 

So for me the cost and learning curve, points me in the direction of PC's. But if all things were equal. I would have already spent the $29 for MainStage.

 

 

[Ashville.Guru]

There is no doubt that MAC & Mainstage is the way to go.

Umm, the hyperbole and finality of that pronouncement is rather unwarranted. Especially coming from someone who's new to the whole field... . No offense meant.

 

Many of us who have been using softsynths live for years, and have spent lots of time researching and comparing the platforms, will tell you that both platforms are equally viable as musical tools. One tool comes packaged in an excellent OS, and shiny hardware, and is expensive. The other comes packaged in an second-rate OS, but costs a tiny fraction of the other.

 

They both get the job done on stage, equally well...

 

- Guru

[Markay]

Well if we are to compare platforms we need to take into account:

 

OSX has drivers built in, you do not need third party drivers for example ASIO drivers as is the case with Windows;

 

MainStage is provided by Apple, Windows requires the use of third party vendors;

 

Apple users often use the headphone out without the need for an external audio interface, most Windows users find they need an external audio interface to eliminate hum and because the interfaces ASIO drivers are superior to ASIO4All and usually provide lower latency (I have the hum issue on my Win7 laptop and continue use the interface with OSX)

 

An accurate cost comparison for the intended purpose is hardware plus VST's, for example MacBook Pro plus MainStage is say $1,500 plus $29 which includes good quality VST's across every imaginable category;

 

Windows $800 for the equivalent hardware spec, plus the Host $139 for Cantabile Performer or more for Forte, plus audio interface say $150, plus the cost of each VST, say $500 for VST's at a minimum to cover most of what is included with MainStage.

 

Once each is specced to a typical gigging standard it is pretty much line ball.

 

The learning curve for each VST host for someone starting out is medium to steep and MainStage has a quite different work flow than Cantabile or Forte. The documentation for all is limited and for a newby there are tragic ommissions in the supplied documentation for each.

 

With MainStage and Logic's large userbase the online KB's and Youtube how to's are extensive and you will find the answer to almost any question that the manuals cannot answer with a bit of googling.

 

The only remaining issue is that from Mavericks OSX is 64 bit only and that leaves a few popular VST's unavailable at present on OSX, VB3 and Sylenth are the ones I can think of but there are suitable alternatives included in MainStage 3.

 

 

 

[Ashville.Guru]

Well if we are to compare platforms...

I certainly don't want to compare platforms, and I'm not sure if anyone else does. My only issue was with the finality of the OP's "the way to go" proclamation, and I'm sure you'll agree that said finality is a tad unjustified.

 

I stand by what I said - both platforms offer tools that will get the job done, very well. I vote that we leave it at that...

 

- Guru

 

(I hope it's not too late to put the genie back in the bottle...)

 

[Tusker]

I certainly don't want to compare platforms, and I'm not sure if anyone else does.

...

 

 

I stand by what I said - both platforms offer tools that will get the job done, very well.

 

To me, you are comparing the platforms, just not contrasting them.

 

 

One tool comes packaged in an excellent OS, and shiny hardware, and is expensive. The other comes packaged in an second-rate OS, but costs a tiny fraction of the other.

 

Oh wait.

[Dr88s]

Windows $800 for the equivalent hardware spec, plus the Host $139 for Cantabile Performer or more for Forte, plus audio interface say $150, plus the cost of each VST, say $500 for VST's at a minimum to cover most of what is included with MainStage.

 

Maybe I am wasteful and foolish for doing so, but another thing that I always factor into the cost of a new Windows system for music performance is the cost of a fresh version of Windows itself. Pretty much any Windows-based system that you will buy at a big box store comes preloaded with countless trialware and drivers system monitors that constantly check online for updates. Even if you remove these manually when you first set up the system, there are always traces left in your registry which slow things down and in my experience render the system unusable, even to the point of having errors and crashes upon the first or second startup.

 

While several years ago you may have got a fresh Windows installation CD with your purchase, nowadays everything is stored on a system recovery partition, but this includes all of the bundled trialware.

 

Whenever I buy any new system, at the same time I fork over another hundred dollars or so for a fresh Windows license. The first thing I do is wipe the new system's hard drive and reinstall Windows; the difference in performance is amazing. Boot up time on a freshly installed copy may take 10 seconds or less, whereas out of the box from major retailers it may take one minute plus.

[Markay]

Left a word out - if we are to compare the COST of each platform and that was for the benefit of the OP. I didn't end with a recommendation of one over the other.

 

My sig makes my preference clear for all to see.

 

If anyone wishes twist my post into a platform war then that's their call.

[Markay]

There are tools like CC Cleaner and Malawarebytes that do a good job of cleaning up the registry after deleting software.

[Ashville.Guru]

To me, you are comparing the platforms, just not contrasting them.

...

Oh wait.

Sorry, but the point of your post eludes me completely; possibly lost in translation. Could you be more direct with what you're trying to say?

 

I really don't get why the semantics of compare/contrast is important...

 

- Guru

 

[Throbert]

I new it, I new it, over here it always turns into a Pissing match. Rarely over at the other place. Hell, I'll role my own and run both.

[RABid]

...

Windows $800 for the equivalent hardware spec, plus the Host $139 for Cantabile Performer or more for Forte, plus audio interface say $150, plus the cost of each VST, say $500 for VST's at a minimum to cover most of what is included with MainStage.

...

 

Wow. That is some really inflated pricing. The folks over at KVR can help you get going for much, much less. Quite a few seem to get going for around $500, hardware plus software.

[bloodyMary]

...

Windows $800 for the equivalent hardware spec, plus the Host $139 for Cantabile Performer or more for Forte, plus audio interface say $150, plus the cost of each VST, say $500 for VST's at a minimum to cover most of what is included with MainStage.

...

 

Wow. That is some really inflated pricing. The folks over at KVR can help you get going for much, much less. Quite a few seem to get going for around $500, hardware plus software.

 

 

 

Why not.. You could get a $400 i5 laptop, a free VST host (there are good ones!) and a couple of free/cheap vst's.

 

Sometimes the hardware you buy (like a controller or an interface) comes with useful software/plugins.

 

For example Yamaha bundles Cubase which comes with VST instruments that sound alright.

 

Or you could get a $99 Sonar starter pack which comes with cool stuff like Dimension LE.

 

Of course fancy stuff like Omnisphere or Kontakt will cost you. But do Mainstage plugs sound like Omnisphere? If they do, I'd better switch to Apple

[I-missRichardTee]

To any new- to- this- forum, people, I am a very experienced, capable, and fairly versatile musician, but with a black hole in my mind for computers.

I am so impressed by the way 3 key guys go back and forth Asheville, Scott, and markay.

Would you guys be willing to make your case, MINUS all the how-to's, and minimizing all the fine details, for why OS7 or Windows or MB etc? Would you three be willing to make your cases for a strictly "live player" ( meaning must be reasonably reliable ) and his wish to belatedly enter the soft synth world of Omnisphere, Trillian and so on.

Keep the technical aspect to a bare minimum, and emphasize the concepts, including from the musicians pov. "Press this, to get this"

The great advantage of the synth world is to have startling preset changes - in old school musician terms, to be able to quickly switch ( Ableton speak ) scenes from a barber shop choir, to unearthly sounds, to lush strings, including prerecorded live drum loops.

Make your case ( again do not tell me to many details, speak instead as if you were talking to non tech musician.. even if you are uneasy about such a musician going over his head.. just appeal to my imagination in musical, and practical terms, meaning it can reliably be done.

[Steve Force]

To the OP - you might want to reconsider the whole project, in favour of a laptop, like @Markay suggests.

 

Trust me, given my context, I've thought about rackmount PCs a lot over the years. The advantages of a laptop - rackmounted, perhaps - are far more:

• Built-in keyboard, touchpad and monitor, right there, for instant troubleshooting
  
• Built-in UPS.
  
• You can actually pre-load all your softsynths at home, put it to sleep/hibernate, and wake it up during setup. No bootup-load time!
  
• A laptop is built to be transported, withstand shocks, etc.

Moreover, I get the feeling that you don't have a lot of experience with softsynths, especially in a live context. Building a computer without having a first-hand experience of your requirements amounts to putting the cart before the horse, IMHO. My suggestion is to use a laptop to understand the nature of the beast, and you'll know exactly how to design your own PC. If you still feel the need, that is...!

Good luck.

 

- Guru

 

My thoughts exactly.

[I-missRichardTee]

Markay Another Scott and AshevilleGuru I am humbled both by the knowledge, relative courtesy, and immense articulateness, expressed in this thread. One question from a lilliputian - someone said something about the Mac being able to use the mini headphone out, making the need for computer interface redundant, or unnecessary.

Question, whether Windows or OS 10, is not an interface, 1. a more reliable ( a puny little female input, being regularly used, I could make an analogy, but will refrain 0_0 ) way to plug into the audio? 2. a much higher quality of a dedicated interface? 3. if yes, an interface IS a significantly higher quality, ought I infer that this quality is a non issue, or is lost to the weak link of live sound?

Also gentle men kindly make your cases to Tee, for windows tabs, ipad, etc.. why it is best way to go for a guy who is not travelling, strictly for Tee's use only. You guys amaze me.. and that word, amaze is very over used, but not in this case!

Thank you

[RABid]

I would add one more part to your question, latency of the headphone out compared to a decent UAB audio interface.

[Markay]

Yes I am sure you could get the price down considerably on a Win system if you use free VST's such as mda piano and Organised for organ, and one of the free VST hosts and hardware less than the Haswell chip, 16 gig ram and 250gig SSD that the OP listed in his first post. I thought the $800 for the laptop was lite on for these specs but there are always bargains to be found.

 

KVR is an excellent source of info and download links for VST's. Many of the smaller VST developers use KVR to host their feedback forums.

[Steve Force]

I went the interface route after hardwiring a trs to the motherboard jacks. The interface worked well, even in a small footprint via an adapter. Hope it is ok that I posted her, Mr. T, since you seem to becoming the moderator.

[Markay]

...people, I am a very experienced, capable, and fairly versatile musician, but with a black hole in my mind for computers. Would you three be willing to make your cases for a strictly "live player" ( meaning must be reasonably reliable ) and his wish to belatedly enter the soft synth world of Omnisphere, Trillian and so on.

Keep the technical aspect to a bare minimum, and emphasize the concepts, including from the musicians pov. "Press this, to get this"

IMRT, some observations first. Those that are successfully using laptops live seem to me to have started with prior experience with hardware, software and how to debug hardware software issues. This is an assumption and if it is wide of the mark then others please chip in.

 

VST hosting software running on a Windows or the Apple operating system called OSX offers deep and powerfull functionality. Each has evolved over the years and its seems that due to the complexity of each users setup whatever they found to be reliable and stable at the time they set it up is what they stick with.

 

For example there are numerous people who have commented that they experienced issues with MainStage but that has not been my experience with MainStage 2.2.2 running on a relatively high end spec laptop.

 

I switched from Windows to OSX and MainStage not because I found Windows and Cantabile to be unstable or unreliable but because I value the screen representation of my controller in MainStage and you get an extensive range of VST's at no extra cost in MainStage.

 

There are other VST's host available for OSX if you wish to use OSX and not MainStage.

 

My experience has been that I got from being a first time user to having a giggable laptop a lot faster with MainStage than I did with Windows.

 

One way of looking at this option is to think of it along the lines of building your own high end workstation. Do you feel you are up to the challenge of acquring a laptop with adequate specs to run large VST's, installing the host software, installling the selected VST's into the host software and mapping all the controls to your selected controller to the host software and optionally to each VST?

 

As a guide it took me three months of nights and weekends to set my laptop with all the patches I need for a Cover band, working on it nights and weekends. It was pretty frustrating at first because things didn't work quite the way I thought they should and I did a fair amount of research on Youtube and other tutorial sites to get the workflow and procedures right.

 

someone said something about the Mac being able to use the mini headphone out, making the need for computer interface redundant, or unnecessary...

An Audio interface is not essential on either Windows or Apple OSX laptops.

 

It is often used on a Windows based laptop as a solution to ground hum or EMF noise in the headphone out.

 

...is not an interface,

1. a more reliable way to plug into the audio?

2. a much higher quality of a dedicated interface?

3. if yes, an interface IS a significantly higher quality, ought I infer that this quality is a non issue, or is lost to the weak link of live sound?

Reliable to the extent that a USB port may be located at the back or side of the laptop and not at the front making it less likely that it will be accidently detached or partly dislodged while playing.

 

Generally the digital to analague conversion will be of a higher quality in an audio interface than the built in soundcard, and most audio interfaces also have analogue to digital converters meaning that you can plug a keyboard, mic or guitar into the interface and record or run them through your host software. For example guitarists use VST hosts and run their guitar through the laptop which has amp modelling and effects VST's and then to their amp. For example into a VST that emulates a TS 808 then to a Marshall Plexi 100 emulation.

 

The other reason that is not on your list above for using an interface is that on Windows machine they come with their own ASIO drivers which means they usually offer lower latency than obtained using the free ASIO4All driver.

 

Whether or not the audience will hear the difference in a live context is debatable. The one I use has large volume knob on it and I use that to tweak volume live as sometimes despite balancing patch volume before a gig the live context one needs to come up or down.

 

Also gentle men kindly make your cases to Tee, for windows tabs, ipad, etc.. why it is best way to go for a guy who is not travelling, strictly for Tee's use only.

iPAD for single sounds, wide range of cheap, by VST standards, apps available, easy for first time user to set up one App at a time.

 

Once you want to layer and split gets complicated, need other apps to get them to talk to each other may require more system resources than an iPAd has.

 

Windows or Apple laptops most powerful option probably only option for high end VST's or those that require an iLock.

 

Windows Tablets - not there quite yet, can offer same power as laptop but at a higher price than laptop, limited connectivity and Windows Hosts and VST's have yet to be updated to the Modern or Metro touch interface. Works fine in desktop mode and Windows 8 may offer a substantial reduction in latency, from not noticeable to near zero.

 

Win 8 latency test

 

 

[Ashville.Guru]

Those that are successfully using laptops live seem to me to have started with prior experience with hardware, software and how to debug hardware software issues.

+1.

 

As a guide it took me three months of nights and weekends to set my laptop with all the patches I need for a Cover band, working on it nights and weekends. It was pretty frustrating at first because things didn't work quite the way I thought they should and I did a fair amount of research on Youtube and other tutorial sites to get the workflow and procedures right.

Again, +1.

 

- Guru

[Markay]

AG the latency link was especially for you!!, surprised it didn't elicit an immediate response.

[Ashville.Guru]

Oops, sorry I missed that...! That seems to be a new development, *Very* interesting, indeed. That might be a game changer for me... I'm excited, and yet also cringing at the idea of reinstalling the OS + my entire setup, when I've just got things working perfectly on Win 7 .

 

Seriously, thanks...

 

But I wonder how much of that difference is because of the SSD...

 

- Guru

 

[Markay]

If I were you and latency is not discernable why bother? My HDD failed and I replaced it with a 256 gig SSD, the machine takes 50% less time to boot and shuts down almost immediately, as latency was not noticeable with the HDD I haven't noticed any difference with the SSD.

 

SSD might make difference on machines with higher than acceptable latency though.

[I-missRichardTee]

Thank you gentlemen.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I wonder how much of that difference is because of the SSD...

 

From reading the article, the writer also tested Win 7 on an SSD, and still got about the same latency.

 

I'll have to do some tests on a machine with changeable hard drives, one is Win 7, the other is Win 8.1. The machine is running ASIO on an eMu 1212M PCI based sound/MIDI card. Win 8 performance in general is somewhat faster on the particular machine (but this could be because I built it a month or so ago, and the W7 version has been running for 5 years or so).

 

[Ashville.Guru]

Yeah, I noticed that only after posting. But damn, those numbers are impressive. MBK, I'm eagerly looking forward to your reports...!

 

- Guru

[Tusker]

Of course fancy stuff like Omnisphere or Kontakt will cost you. But do Mainstage plugs sound like Omnisphere? If they do, I'd better switch to Apple

 

I would never suggest that people switch platforms if what they have works for them.

 

I used to have a dedicated Win machine for audio. I spec'ed it with a friend who does technical work for Microsoft and it was a screamer for it's time. However the process of finding a sweet spot was exhausting. He also helped me with my next two audio computers.

 

I switched to Apple a few years ago because the process of identifying the right combination of hardware and software left me exhausted on my previous Wintel daws. My MS friend meanwhile had relocated to Redmond. Another friend of mine had a macbook pro with which he got along quite easily. (Of course, drivers had become more reliable across the board.)

 

So I first tried some audio with a Macbook, then a Macbook Pro. Currently I run MainStage with my 8 gig, 512 Macbook Air (I7). I also run my business apps on it, and having a separate (simple) boot for audio, I am doing fine. It sounds terrific.

 

As to whether MainStage sounds like Omnisphere ...

 

MainStage isn't as large as Omnisphere (5 gigs for the core library plus 35 gigs of additional content) compared to Omnisphere's 50 Gig (AFAIK) . The synths are simpler but it does include a nice physical modeled B3 which has caused me to stop using VB3. Respectable modeled Electric piano and Clavs, and an unusually open ended plucked string modeler called Sculpture are also nice bonuses:

 

[video:youtube]PvCeGSYhI1U

 

MainStage is a bread and butter solution with some esoteric synthesis tucked in for free. Omnisphere aims more at unique timbres and a very encompassing synthesis package. However both are expandable, and for example EXS24 (the MainStage sample player) will take any size samples you wish to play through it.

 

If I was scoring a movie the differences between MainStage and Omnisphere would seem huge to me. Since I am playing live, the differences seem slight. Of course there is nothing wrong with having both.