I-missRichardTee Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 I use two monitors, 2 way 15's. Volume is cocktail jazz .. rather low. No mixer. I don't like K10's for this gig! I had amp at 12:00 Master volume on keyboard was barely on ( likely a poor choice ) I always play in performance mode.. split keyboard mode.. The primary instruments piano and bass were set above 50%. i change individual volumes within keyboard ( balance of bass to piano to strings to EP's ) often. At one point in the gig I felt the whole overall volume could come up just a tad. I turned the master volume on keyboard up ( i thought just slightly ) and was rudely surprised to have a rush of too loud volume ( this is intimate volume where people are chatting and some enjoying to music ! ) so I quickly turned down - just a slight turn of knob, and the sound almost completely disappeared! I should know better! What is a better gain stage between ( no mixer ) master volume, individual volumes and amp volume? I am thinking the amps have to come way down to a quarter volume instead of half ( 12:00 ). but I guess thrust of question has to do with what is ideal, OR, aside from yesterdays setup making turning master volume nearly impossible, does it even matter sonically where the three gains are ( amp, master and individual volume settings )? You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 First rule of gain staging - find a way to have each part of the chain in the mid point of a volume control. Rotary pots especially are jumpy at the beginning of their travel. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITGITC Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Tee, Turn the volume of your keyboard up about 3/4 of the way - before turning on your amp. Turn down the volume on your amp - all the way. Then turn it on. Play your keyboard while turning up the volume on your amp until it's satisfactory. If you are using powered speakers, the same steps apply. Good luck. "Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allister Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Tee, Turn the volume of your keyboard up about 3/4 of the way - before turning on your amp. Turn down the volume on your amp - all the way. Then turn it on. Play your keyboard while turning up the volume on your amp until it's satisfactory. If you are using powered speakers, the same steps apply. Good luck. I do this, works well. just gotta have enough headroom for solo's, but not so much that a minute adjustment is too loud Yamaha MOX8, Roland VK8, LESLIE HL822 Woop woop!!!! and a MBP running PT10 and Omnisphere. My Blog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timwat Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Short answer - yes, in my experience it sonically matters and yes, you've found out your mistake on the KB master vol knob. My suggestion, because 1/3 to 1/2 of my gigs are lower volume - is to experiment with your rig settings in the practice room to learn what's going to work best in all volume settings. Try using just one monitor instead of two - and observe at specific volume levels what's good and what's bad about this new permutation. Learn where the sweet spot on your KB master volume is - the area that provides the most useful musical dynamic range. Most of my powered speakers and amps have an area on the volume knob where turning the knob doesn't do all that much to change perceived / apparent volume. Know where that is as well. Try running sequences through to find out what the audience is actually hearing from 10 feet away. I've actually been pleasantly surprised how the PX3 sounds through my (gasp) Roland KC300 at 10 feet away. As much as we disparage that muppet-hide beast, there's no denying what you actually hear. I've found that for digital piano in very low volume venues, having two speakers can be very useful (even if running mono) as the "perceived width" of your sound helps compensate for the very low volume. I wouldn't have stumbled across this unless I'd had all the gear set up in my living room and taken the time to try all sorts of different configurations. Anyway, my 0.02. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 Guys... very very helpful.. I wasn't sure if I was going to get ignored or worse! timwat.. excellent suggestions.. problem is I don't HAVE a living room. And playing "at volume" in my bedroom is highly frowned upon. plus my musician roommates don't subject me to this either! I really appreciate this advice that many here no doubt know about! You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Is the K10 set for mic or line level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 Is the K10 set for mic or line level? I am pleased you reminded me of that crazy K10 of mine. What is with that speaker? I play it ( I have 2 actually I may end up unloading them but too soon to determine... reason is the K10 might have the SONIC quality just right for B3 but not piano ) I play it with an Eon 15.. and the Eon just overshadows it.. drives me crazy. I was using line level since I bought it .. but it was turned up to "10". I still was not hearing the comparable output of the Eon 15 g2 I THINK I then turned on Mic level for more level ( no mixer ) at the last gig. The volume STILL did not overwhelm me, But I did turn down the level to half. I don't play these things at home. On gig, we go from song to song, and I don't have time to adjust the rear of the K10. The K10 seems to be VERY directional is that it? This would account for the perception of low volume, while the eon is also on. It is disconcerting to play the eon 15 with the k10 because I am guessing the dispersion patterns are so different - make sense? You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Yes, the K10 is directional. While that makes it good for a personal stage monitor aimed right at your head, it makes it bad for other people to hear. My bandmates endlessly complain about my K10s, and keep harrassing me to bring my Accugrooves back out. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 Aimed at head as in A stand for these things? Cause just tilting on floor is not enough You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 Tee, Turn the volume of your keyboard up about 3/4 of the way - before turning on your amp. Turn down the volume on your amp - all the way. Then turn it on. Play your keyboard while turning up the volume on your amp until it's satisfactory. If you are using powered speakers, the same steps apply. Good luck. I do this, works well. just gotta have enough headroom for solo's, but not so much that a minute adjustment is too loud When I need to goose it for the solo.. I don't think I need the left hand bass to get louder... which suggests a more elegant solution for only the right hand. The Fantom I am using has faders not as conveniently placed to make a quick movement of the keyboard right hand, volume. They are further to my left than I would like. A work in progress. You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB Dave Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Aimed at head as in A stand for these things? Cause just tilting on floor is not enough Really? I'm guessing you play standing up then? Because the K10 is angled pretty perfectly for playing in a seated position. And ITGITC?'s advice is spot-on. Whatever unnecessary gain you have in your system, dial it out at the end of the chain, not the beginning. (Iie, crank the K10s down as low as necessary. And don't use the MIC setting). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 First rule of gain staging - find a way to have each part of the chain in the mid point of a volume control. Rotary pots especially are jumpy at the beginning of their travel. What if the three levels ( set at midpoint) A) amp- B) master key vol- C) individual volumes- sum to being generally too loud for gig? Since sonically the relative positions of the three stages DOES matter ( leaving the fact that the pots are jumpy, out of consideration for a minute ) Which of the pots would you turn down?? let me propose a few scenarios intended for your opinions. A is amp B is master volume and C is Individual volume performance mode using volume represented as 0 to 100 Which has a better or poorer sound QUALITY ? A= 20 B= 65 C= 100 ? A= 90 B= 65 C= 10 ? A= 50 B= 50 C=50 A B C fill in your own general ideas on maximizing sound quality. Thank you You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 Aimed at head as in A stand for these things? Cause just tilting on floor is not enough Really? I'm guessing you play standing up then? Because the K10 is angled pretty perfectly for playing in a seated position. And ITGITC?'s advice is spot-on. Whatever unnecessary gain you have in your system, dial it out at the end of the chain, not the beginning. (Iie, crank the K10s down as low as necessary. And don't use the MIC setting). Hmmm the K10 is not loud enough weird weird . I sit when I play. That eon 15 is a spoiler . You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB Dave Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 I think in your case I'd probably try this: A (amp) = 0 B (master) = 100 C (instrument) = 100 That's the starting point. Bring A up to the absolute loudest volume you'd ever want, and either leave it there or give it maybe a tad more oomph. Bring B down to compensate so you're back at a comfortable volume level. Leave C at 100. That should get you fairly close. Assuming that B and C do not clip, that should give you a nice clean solid signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB Dave Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 At the beginning you said this is for cocktail jazz. Weird that the K10 is not loud enough for that. A single K10 is sometimes not enough for a full rock and roll band but it ought to be plenty for cocktail jazz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 At the beginning you said this is for cocktail jazz. Weird that the K10 is not loud enough for that. A single K10 is sometimes not enough for a full rock and roll band but it ought to be plenty for cocktail jazz. It's the TONE and the DIRECTIONALITY of K 10. I use TWO 2 way powered 15's on this soft gig yup.. sounds the fullest at low levels ;-) K10 has promise with B3 clone though. Still finding out... I may sell them though For Left hand bass gigs... the tone of that bass is critical.. said it before, but worth repeating. 15's work better for me than the K10. I think K10 has potential that I have not had opportunity to uncover esp for bass, but likely through a mixer to shape its tone. You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB Dave Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Ah. Well if it's the tone and directionality you don't like, yeah, you may well be facing an uphill battle with the K10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 Ah. Well if it's the tone and directionality you don't like, yeah, you may well be facing an uphill battle with the K10. Your comment kind of astonishes me.. no offense, I have sought tone all my life.. and tone I can hear, and others can hear thus directionality. So I am curious to know where you are coming from.. ! You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 I was less than satisfied with my K10 for a long time. I mean, it was okay, but it wasn't great. Then, at one gig, I finally got to put it where I wanted. I had it on the floor, but not right next to me, a few feet away instead. It sounded terrific! I was really happy. I thought to myself, "I need to make sure I position it like this at every gig!" Then, my cable started cutting out and all I could hear of myself was the echo from the mains. "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 WHERE Oh where did you place it in relation to Joe, Joe? And what settings do you use on K10 - what level of volume? Stereo? Bass heavy music tracks ? just keyboards? You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB Dave Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Your comment kind of astonishes me.. no offense, I have sought tone all my life.. and tone I can hear, and others can hear thus directionality. So I am curious to know where you are coming from.. ! Oh, I'm sorry, I meant no offense. What I meant was: I judged that from the rest of your comments that you just didn't like the tone of the K10 compared to the JBL. I guess I was a little thrown off because earlier I was trying to help with your gain stage issue but then you had said that you didn't like the tone and directionality of the K10 either, and I don't know what can be done about that. I mean, if you don't like the tone than you don't like the tone, know what I mean? There's lots of folks who prefer the JBLs over the K10 so you're not alone in this assessment. And the K10 is fairly directional. Not as directional as the K12, but still fairly directional. It took me awhile to get used to the K10s in my gigging setup* but I've made my peace with them. And they use crappy connectors, and the only plugs that don't buzz and rattle loose are the Planet Waves cables with the spring integrated into the sleeve. That said, they pack a lot of power into a lightweight package and it's hard to beat the convenience. * Prior to the K10 I was using birch Bag End TA-12s, so I was pretty spoiled. The Bag Ends are amazingly sweet-sounding and forgiving speakers. Everything sounds great through them, no EQ needed, and they sound good off-axis. But each one probably weighs what a pair of K10s does, plus you still need an amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 WHERE Oh where did you place it in relation to Joe, Joe? And what settings do you use on K10 - what level of volume? Stereo? Bass heavy music tracks ? just keyboards? Mono, playing organ, all switches normal, volume was probably a little past half, and positioned "over there." "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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