True Keys review in Keyboard

[Dana.]

I was disappointed by the review in the current issue. While I haven't actually used True Keys, based on the demos I've heard, both on VI Labs' website and clips posted by forum members, I think it deserves more praise than the reviewer gave it. To my ears, it's superior to Ivory (though I haven't heard the American D), and the first serious challenger to what has been the standard for many years. I guess I was expecting a rave review instead of merely a great one.

 

Also, there seemed to be some confusion at the end of the review when it was referred to as True Pianos, which is an entirely different product. Not sure how that happened.

[miden]

iLOk dongle = no sale!

[rockinredeye]

Speaking of iLoks, why do they seem to be used only by music software companies? Is music software stolen more than, say, video editing software? Anybody love their iLok? Not me.

[Dana.]

As an aside, I didn't recognize the reviewer's name -- someone new? Honestly, I'm more inclined to trust the opinions of people on the forum who've used True Keys, i.e., Steve Nathan, SK, etc., than I am a reviewer who I know nothing about. Why should I trust this mystery person's opinion? What makes them qualified to review True Keys? Are they a pianist? Are they familiar with other top piano samples (Ivory, Quantum Leap, etc.) and therefore qualified to compare them? More info about the reviewer is essential to establishing credibility, especially in the blogging age.

[CEB]

True Cowbell is where it is at.

[miden]

To be more relative to the OP (and forgetting the rancour towards the security system) I agree with D-bon, that going by the demos this is one sweet bit of kit. I have not seen an entry for it at Purgatory Creek, but that's probs just me missing it.

[Joe Muscara]

iLOk dongle = no sale!

Even worse, it's iLok 2. Why is that worse? Because I have the iLok 1, and I ain't buying another unless I absolutely have to. Since True Keys is a potential want and not a need, forget it.

 

Speaking of iLoks, why do they seem to be used only by music software companies? Is music software stolen more than, say, video editing software?

I've been asking this forever, and all I get are responses with anecdotal info like "music software is stolen more than any other kind" and "the big companies can afford a little piracy, us small music software companies can't." For the former, no proof has ever been offered.

 

____

As far as the OP, I get what D-Bon is saying about the author. But, there are always new reviewers and writers in KB. It might have been nice if the reviewers got bylines so we could tell what their credentials are.

 

For the lack of praise, I felt the same way. After seeing what cats like Steve Nathan and SK have said about it, the review left it as another great one. I get not giving it a Key Buy (I think the product has to really be outstanding and unique. If it were half the price of the others or a huge amount better, it would be), but I think most people would read the review, go, "huh," and move on.

[Jazzmammal]

Speaking of iLoks, why do they seem to be used only by music software companies? Is music software stolen more than, say, video editing software?

 

Hell yes it is, you kidding? The reason is there's several excellent free legitimate video editors like Virtualdub, Windows Movie Maker and the built in Mac movie things available while there's gazillions of wannabe record producers who basically live on certain sites just looking for music software to snag. It's not the basic software, Kontakt Player, Aria Player and others are already free it's the sound libraries everybody wants like this one.

 

It's a huge problem and I don't know what the answer is but right now they seem to think iLok is it. All the big DAW company forums and the sound library forums are full of complaints about iLock but they continually say the same thing. They know people hate it and they're well aware it's not great customer relations to piss off your base but they must protect themselves or they'll go out of business.

 

Considering all the iLock players are still around it must be ok with enough people to make it work out.

 

Bob

[Dana.]

Check it: this is not a thread about iLok. iLok has absolutely nothing to do with the intent of this thread or the points I'm making. So if you want to piss on iLok, go find the dedicated iLok thread, unzip your fly and have at it, but leave this thread unsoiled.

 

[Kawai James]

Well said.

[SK]

Whatever I originally said about True Keys in the main TK thread (prior to its hijacking), I stand by.

 

I haven't read the new Keyboard review...I do have the full program and I use it a lot. And now that you can buy one piano at a time at a reduced price, and download it online, it's a great deal. Easily worth it for the "American" piano alone (and more than offsets the cost of 'that which shall not be mentioned'.)

[mcgoo]

So if you want to piss on iLok, go find the dedicated iLok thread, unzip your fly and have at it, but leave this thread unsoiled.

 

On 1st read thru, all I could think of was "dude, lighten up." Then I looked at your avatar, laughed & thought "Never mind".

[Theo Verelst]

Maybe it's time people get of their high horse a bit about all these "perfect" sample-player based products, and all the "great" software, simply because it isn't *that* great.

 

Seriously, not to be overly dialectic (I mean, the academic concept) about it, but maybe the time that aunty America says "oh yeah, that's really great" about all these software buffs would better be over by now, huh ?

 

I don't think that the attention to detail and the general mopho-ing about the actual Digital Signal Processing going on in all the software being sold today is because the aloofness of the IT-types liking this stuff is thoroughly well founded (that's not a double negative and the style figure I mean deliberately).

 

I mean the first synth software was from Dave Smith IIRC, the first "sampled" pianos probably were either not very serious, or from well known keyboard manufacturers, or maybe in certain labs where real research did go on.

 

Let me be clear: I like it that there is decent, legal software on the western free market that people can buy, and that makes wonderful musical sounds work on a standard home-computer. I also like it there is diversity and various approaches to the programming and digital signal processing in the programs. But generally: it sucks. And that needs saying on a more global level, after so many years of continued "stuff".

 

Of course there can (and maybe should) be discussion about what these musical programs are supposed to do, and not do. Of course, when I listen to the examples of the "True Keys" (what does that name mean ?) it is nice to hear a virtual piano coming from a piece of software. But "Do I Like It" ?!?! Honestly: not that much. It sounds "wrong" in a way many (sampling) products sounds wrong-ish, and I don't think the general public is very served by that originally unintentional by-product of sampling products, so maybe it's time some of the real engineers can make a few points, without having to wade through a swamp of so-so marketing utterances.

 

Theo V.

[Dana.]

Maybe it's time people get of their high horse a bit about all these "perfect" sample-player based products, and all the "great" software, simply because it isn't *that* great.

Says the guy who's still trying to make the Kurzweil Triple Strike sound convincingly real. Give me a break, chief.

[ABECK]

Let me be clear: I like it that there is decent, legal software on the western free market that people can buy, and that makes wonderful musical sounds work on a standard home-computer. I also like it there is diversity and various approaches to the programming and digital signal processing in the programs. But generally: it sucks. And that needs saying on a more global level, after so many years of continued "stuff".

So, wait, you think they sound wonderful, but also suck on a global level??

[Dana.]

Maybe it's time people get of their high horse a bit about all these "perfect" sample-player based products, and all the "great" software, simply because it isn't *that* great.

Says the guy who's still trying to make the Kurzweil Triple Strike sound convincingly real. Give me a break, chief.

Also, stop trying to hijack my thread with your OT rant.

[johnchop]

Theo, your credibility is way over-extended at this point.

 

You haven't even played the damn thing.

 

You may want to check that custom signal path/amp/speaker you're running everything through, because clearly, something is broken.

[Theo Verelst]

The subject was the review, right? At least I get some important parts right.

[SK]

when I listen to the examples of the "True Keys" (what does that name mean ?) it is nice to hear a virtual piano coming from a piece of software. But "Do I Like It" ?!?! Honestly: not that much. It sounds "wrong" in a way many (sampling) products sounds wrong-ish

Theo, there are obvious artificialities in most piano samples (I know what you're saying)...

but I can't really find anything "wrong-ish" in the piano samples in this TK demo:

[video:youtube]

[Bif_]

The subject was the review, right? At least I get some important parts right.

 

Clever and funny!!

[Theo Verelst]

Nice indeed. Certainly sounds like a piano and has some dynamics. Nice playing, too. I like a rock piano, and a little more of the Steinway deepness, which of course is personal, also for classics.

 

Of course there's yadda yadda possible about loudness control, mix-ability, the forming of advanced chords, etc, but you won't hear me say it isn't a nice sound.

 

T

[SK]

Glad you liked that, Theo.

 

Just read the Keyboard review, so here's my review of the review:

 

I actually agree with the review in most every aspect, except for the slightly understated tone of the article mixed with mostly accolades. So I agree with D-Bon, this product deserved a KEYBUY award.

 

I can see why the reviewer prefers the "German" piano, because initially it sounds the most believable, being a smaller instrument. The "American" or Steinway sounds almost too big and good to be a software piano, but I default to it as my favorite. I also agree the Fazioli is impressive and harmonically rich, but too bright for many applications.

 

It also points out the separate sampling for Una Corda and staccato, release and sustain... no loops, and good tone sculpting within the interface, which is all very cool.

 

The reviewer said (paraphrasing) all 3 pianos are "accurately" sampled with recognizable qualities of their respective instruments. It says the American Steinway "captures everything you'd expect from a Steinway D, including rich sustain and pronounced bass." Well... I don't know that I'd say it captures everything, but most things for sure. For those of us who've been searching for an affordable, great piano program that's easy on the computer... If TK accurately captured a Steinway D ', that's 'big news', perhaps worthy of a KeyBuy right there.

 

It does say the pianos sound "simply great" ("simply great" not great enough for KeyBuy?), and that they really shine in a mix.

 

It touts the large 64GB library of samples as one of the "Pros", then mentions (as a "Con") the slower load times because of large files. That's the only con mentioned.

 

I don't consider the files slow loading at all. And talking file size, 64GB is a snap for all 3 pianos compared to East West Quantum Leap which, with the player included, comes to a whopping 230GB. True Keys loads much faster, MUCH faster to install, is easier on the computer and has more sonic presence than Quantum Leap.

 

The reviewer stressed the authentic sound of these pianos, and was clearly impressed. So I agree with the review for being honestly positive and "accurate", except for kinda/almost presenting True Keys a little bit like another nice piano software product, 'if you're into that sort of thing.'

 

TK is still an innovative 'best in class' for me.

[miden]

Maybe it's time people get of their high horse a bit about all these "perfect" sample-player based products, and all the "great" software, simply because it isn't *that* great.

Says the guy who's still trying to make the Kurzweil Triple Strike sound convincingly real. Give me a break, chief.

 

Not to mention also that most keyboards (including the Kurz's) use samples -in some form - as well. Just in ROM form. But they are samples nonetheless.

 

So the very thing the writer is decrying, he is using himself!

[Theo Verelst]

What if you use a sample of white noise, and a vocoder filter bank (in VAST, say), you separate the volume from the sample, add a few special elements to the sample, how many sounds could you theoretically make ? And it is unlikely (given the sound and most likely internals) most (all ?) s.w. does something intelligent with sampling problems.

 

How could you create effects that can somehow interpolate between samples (especially when done in a non-standard way) intelligently, or otherwise, that can pick out and emphasize sample information. Do some EE homework first before making the direct comparison between VAST+ prepared samples and most software.

 

T

[Dana.]

Yeah, Steve, you're on point, though I think Joe suggested the Key Buy, not me. But I agree that it's worthy of one.

 

To me, "simply great" is at least a notch below "spectacular," "outstanding," "superb," etc. We live in an age when "great," "cool," and "awesome" are used as reflex responses in situations where the literal meaning isn't even meant. As such, they've lost their impact. I know Fortner is fond of "killer," but when you use it all the time, where is the bar set? And really, using such benign adjectives is lazy journalism, even in music journalism. The fact is, True Pianos is better than "good" and "great," as the last line of the review seems to suggest "great" is as, ahem, good as it gets. Steve (SK), I think your "best in class" is more helpful and clear than the adjectives above.

 

:waits for Fortner to show up:

[Joe Muscara]

True Keys is available as a download, right? Do they give you any sort of "backup" method? IOW, if I was dumb enough to install it, my hard drive crashes, and I didn't make a copy of the download nor back up my hard drive, is there a way to download it again easily, or would I have to see if their support was nice enough to let me download it again?

 

Not that I've seen other large downloads do this, but I was just wondering. Most only let you download for a limited time or something like that. I usually put the download on a backup drive and hope that doesn't crash too.

[zephonic]

I was disappointed by the review in the current issue. While I haven't actually used True Keys, based on the demos I've heard, both on VI Labs' website and clips posted by forum members, I think it deserves more praise than the reviewer gave it.

 

You haven't used the product but disagree with the review based on samples you heard on the internet?

 

 

[RABid]

So, is there a mono version to use on stage?

[SK]

D-Bon, I agree, adjectives are almost useless... especially "awesome." Even when I say something's great, it's still only my opinion.

 

Joe, I don't work for ViLabs but I'm sure your purchase would be protected & guaranteed. And the folder is only 64GB if you buy all 3 pianos. They could also send it to you on a USB, which is the way I got it.

 

So, is there a mono version to use on stage?

No mono version, but you could make the signal mono. Or you can plug one of your ears (sorry, been a long day here.)

[Dana.]

You haven't used the product but disagree with the review based on samples you heard on the internet?

I didn't disagree with it. Re-read what I wrote.

 

To recontextualize, I trust my ears, and I trust the ears of forum members such as SK who have much more experience playing pianos, especially grands, than I do. Up until now, there were things about Ivory, Quantum Leap, and other grand samples that weren't quite right to me -- they're weren't totally convincing. True Keys has eliminated a lot of those deficiencies I was hearing. I don't think I need to navigate a user interface or futz with a velocity curve to know whether or not something sounds right. The proof is in the sound. Do you think SK's demos are lying? I don't.