KingKorg opinions ?

[Ekewaka]

The only way to stop Japanese companies using sub-part key beds in their products is avoid purchasing them.

[Synthoid]

The only way to stop Japanese companies using CHINESE key beds in their products is avoid purchasing them.

 

Fixed that for ya.

 

 

 

[David Emm]

Its a shame to see that too many manufacturers are apparently just not listening, in part because too many people apparently accept it, or worse yet, don't even know to complain when its called for. I've passed on a couple of buys over insultingly cheesy build quality, so I'm doing my part. Its part of why I've gone mostly softsynth. There's a standard for digital formats; there should be a minimum for keyboard builds that fit the $#@! job as well. Maybe if the CEOs saw me turn away in disgust after trying to play a cracker box mechanism, THEN they'd get it, but overall, commercial evidence indicates that they're the last people who will give a damn, or if they do, its not showing enough. That's an offensive shame with gear that often sounds so sweet. I bow with great respect towards Nord's tight yet fluid keys, on the Lead 2 and Wave I played. Now *there's* something akin to a pro gold standard.

[Leh173]

I guess I'm probably just stating the obvious, but these things are cheap for a reason. I think due to economic conditions these companies are trying to bring affordable products to the marketplace, but that means quality is going to suffer as things get built at lower price points and more products made in south east asia. I learned this the hard way when trying to settle on a MIDI controller, and I ended up with the Fantom G6. I accepted the cost/weight issues for reliability and quality of keybed. I don't know what the answer is... it's hard for musicians to pay high prices when times are bad... but none of us want junk that won't last or insults you when you play it (I'm looking at you Akai MPK61, Axiom Pro, etc etc...)

[Geoff Grace]

I agree that the economy is a factor, but it's not the whole story. Back when Korg released the OASYSduring a good economypeople were outraged at the price. I can't recall a greater flame fest in the history of this forum than the OASYS threads of that period. When you combine the market sector that refuses to pay for quality with the market sector that can no longer afford to pay for quality, you've got a pretty compelling reason to release cheap gear.

 

To Korg's credit, they didn't skimp on the sound quality of this keyboard. If I were in the market for a VA, King Korg would be on my short list of products to consider.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Ken Beaumont]

All of the economic arguments might fly if:

 

1) Other companies weren't making cheaper boards than this with better keys. Casio, Kurzweil, Roland and Yamaha all make low cost boards with better keys than these. The pivot point issue is a serious design flaw and its not new to this board.

 

2) The board was actually cheap, $1299 street is not chump change.

[johnchop]

Let's say they could improve the construction and include the M3/Kronos-61 keybed... would you pay $1599?

 

On a side note... is the Nord Lead 4, retailing at $2,199, $900 "better"?

 

-John

 

PS: Apologies in advance for my US currency bias.

 

[CEB]

Yes.

 

86 ro 87 I paid around $1800 for the D-50.

early 90s KS-32 with expanded memory cost over 2 grand.

XB-2 was around the same price new.

Korg Sampled Grand ....ditto

RD-500 ditto

pretty much same for the other boards I owned.

Heck my $800 Casio CZ-1 had an internal power supply and a nice feeling keyboard.

 

Adjusted for inflation $1599 would be cheap it it was a quality synth but I don't still won't like the wall wart and may not buy it.

 

All my old boards held up well. If keyboard is crap it isn't worth anything to me if it doesn't hold up to 100 gigs a year for 3-5 years it is worthless to me. I would rather pay $2000 for a nice instrument than $1299 for a bedroom piece.

 

[Ken Beaumont]

Let's say they could improve the construction and include the M3/Kronos-61 keybed... would you pay $1599?

 

Well since I paid that much for my MOX8 and $1499 for my SV1-73, the answer is "yes". But I really don't believe the price would jump that much. I'm not asking for anything more than fix the stupid pivot point. If Arturia can release the KeyLab 61 that has aftertouch, a metal cabinet with wood panels and their software for $399, why should it cost $1299 for a Korg product with cheap molded plastic construction and sub par keys? There are plenty of 61 key controllers in the sub $200 category that at least get the pivot point right.

[False]

Tried it today. I didn't find the action unplayable. It sounds good, has a simple interface and seemed interesting. Overall, I'd say I like it.

[Ekewaka]

...and I thought that my used Yamaha KX-61 MIDI keyboard (got it for $120) had a lousy key bed, it's excellent now compared with the recent Japanese keyboard releases...

[Synthoid]

I really don't believe the price would jump that much. I'm not asking for anything more than fix the stupid pivot point. If Arturia can release the KeyLab 61 that has aftertouch, a metal cabinet with wood panels and their software for $399, why should it cost $1299 for a Korg product with cheap molded plastic construction and sub par keys?

 

This. ^^^

[Ken Beaumont]

False,

Each has to make his own decision. I agree totally on the sounds and interface. But my hands play too far forward on the black keys especially when chording. When I first played it I didn't notice the issue mainly due to me focusing on sounds, mostly lead. But later after I sat down to play chords, pads and PCM sounds it became apparent to me right away this wouldn't work for me. Its a shame too because I really liked the sounds and the interface. I hope it works well for you.

[False]

False,

Each has to make his own decision. I agree totally on the sounds and interface. But my hands play too far forward on the black keys especially when chording. When I first played it I didn't notice the issue mainly due to me focusing on sounds, mostly lead. But later after I sat down to play chords, pads and PCM sounds it became apparent to me right away this wouldn't work for me. Its a shame too because I really liked the sounds and the interface.

Well, I haven't had the chance to really delve deep into the keybed, so I perhaps I might feel the same way after a deeper inspection. I do think it is not as utterly unplayable as some comments here made me think. Of course it all depends on your individual playing style.

[Devnor]

I'm just back from attempting to try out a Kingkorg. 3 of the keys in the lower octave were frozen in the rest position. The rest of the keybed felt like a cheap usb controller but useable. Some of the pots felt really cheap (the smaller ones). Can't believe they want $1300 for this. On the bright side the Kronos X keybed is much improved and I really enjoyed playing that board.

[Geoff Grace]

All of the economic arguments might fly if:

 

1) Other companies weren't making cheaper boards than this with better keys. Casio, Kurzweil, Roland and Yamaha all make low cost boards with better keys than these. The pivot point issue is a serious design flaw and its not new to this board.

 

2) The board was actually cheap, $1299 street is not chump change.

Not to someone who's a victim of this economy, no. But it's a small fraction of what I paid for my E-IV back in 1994, especially when you factor in inflation. I paid $4,000 for the rackmount version plus $3,000 for RAM. That's close to $11,000 in today's dollarsalmost ten times as expensive as a King Korg!

 

And my E-IV cost but a small fraction of that era's Synclavier systems, whichfully loadedcost $80,000 or morein '90s dollars! That's roughly 100 times more expensive than King Korg when you factor in inflation. So by historic standards, King Korg's price is chump change.

 

My OB-8 cost $3,200 in 1983. That's over $7,000 today. I could list more examples, but I hope I've made my point.

 

Hardware can't compete in price with virtual instruments; but these days, it has to nonetheless. Manufacturers only have two ways to cut price: by cutting hardware costs or R&D costs. Take a look at your list of competitors above and cross reference them with threads filled with complaints about manufacturers who've tweaked the same technology for years. That's the fallout from R&D cuts. These days you've got to pick your poisoncheap hardware or dated soundsbecause we've gotten the products that result from our spending choices and/or limits.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Dana.]

This speaks to the importance of making products that play nice with others, i.e., keyboards with quality action to control virtual instruments, class compliant USB, intelligently designed knobs and faders, MIDI control, etc. For example, do you think Casio gives a shit if people are buying the PX-5S for the internal sounds vs. its controller capabilities? No. (Well, Mike might care ). They're making money regardless. The fact that they're making well-designed products means they can appeal to a variety of users. The KK immediately shoots itself in the foot with the krappy keys. Having good sounds (in hardware) is no longer enough, especially when they can be bested by virtual instruments, not only in sound but price.

[Leh173]

Wow I haven't played a KK but if people are this dismayed with the keybed it must be awful. Guess I keep on playing my lovely JP-8000, and that was considered a "cheap" build in it's time. How things have fallen.

 

I did play the Krome and MOX and MX and I was stunned how bad the keybeds on the semi weighteds were. I never liked the Juno/A-series controller action that much but they are better than all this stuff. I think Roland really care about keybeds and construction quality.

 

Bit OT but the thing I don't get is why various manufacturers don't support existing products with bug fixes, OS updates and sound libraries. I'd rather buy a high quality product that is well supported and maximised over time by it's maker and keep it for years than buy cheapo stuff. Thankfully the Fantom has enough going on that I can keep adding stuff to it myself but they could have done so much more...

 

Anyway sorry to hear the KK has poor build.

[Geoff Grace]

do you think Casio gives a shit if people are buying the PX-5S for the internal sounds vs. its controller capabilities? No. (Well, Mike might care ). They're making money regardless. The fact that they're making well-designed products means they can appeal to a variety of users.

It shouldn't surprise anyone that Casio strikes a great balance at cost-containing hardware and R&D. The budget market has been their turf for decades, and they've learned how to make it work. Now, as other manufacturers drop like flies into this territory, Casio is rising into a dominant player.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Ekewaka]

I would buy the idea of inflation and old keyboards being more expensive and thus having better keyboards, however I have two parts of evidence that counter-claims this statement, your honor:

 

* Casio and its key beds for under $1000 price point

* Many low-cost MIDI keyboards have pretty decent key beds (excluding the bottom line of M-Audio.)

 

 

[Bosendorphen]

My Novation Xiosynth has a really nice semi-weighted action. It cost me $250 (granted this version is only 2 octaves but the 4 octave version isn't a whole lot more). Plus it's a really great little virtual analog.

 

I've always loved Korg synths (had the MiniKorg, still have Polysix and DW8000) and their budget synths were quite well built. At least up until around 2000. When I bought the MS2000 it felt very fragile and cheezy (despite some metal there) and the mainboard went up on me after a few years.

 

Didn't like the Triton LE action some time later. I was attracted to the M50 even years later but it just seemed way too fragile/plasticky for $1000. I disliked the action and the King Korg's feels worse.

 

I agree that Casio has been doing the budget keyboard thing so long they've refined it near perfection for buck/bang ratio.

 

Another company that (used to) do budget gear really well was Kawai. I had a K4 synth (18 lbs.) that took a pounding for years and still works perfectly (sold it to our guitarist). Not even a battery change. And it had a solid action. Same reliability for my Q-80 sequencer. I recall a review on the K4 on Harmony Central and under "reliability" the reviewer said, "The most I can give it is only a 10?" as it had survived every beer-soaked club/frat party gig he'd played for years and years.

[CEB]

I don't recall seeing mention of the keys in Keyboard's review; either I missed it or once again Keyboard has failed to call out a manufacturer on a krappy product.

 

I just read the review this morning. (pages 46-48 in the newest issue) The keyboard is mentioned in the CONS section. "Somewhat spongy keyboard doesn't sense aftertouch"

 

It seems to me the Mitchell Sigman's greatest concern how is the ligtweight plastic construction feels delicate. "I'd be extra cautious plugging cables in and out of the the dainty rear panel"

 

But he likes the 15 pound weight.

[Dana.]

* Many low-cost MIDI keyboards have pretty decent key beds (excluding the bottom line of M-Audio.)

Really? Which ones?

 

I've tried them all -- Akai, Alesis, Arturia, Behringer, Korg, Line 6, M-Audio, Nektar, Novation, Roland, Samson -- and, to me, none of them feel "pretty decent." There's always something wrong with them: too tightly sprung, too spongy, the pivot point is wrong, the keys are uneven, it's too difficult to get a good velocity range, the keys are too short, the keys have rough edges, the key travel is too shallow, etc. And that's just the keys; there are plenty of other issues with build quality, knobs and sliders, wheels, drum pads, etc.

[Dana.]

I just read the review this morning. (pages 46-48 in the newest issue) The keyboard is mentioned in the CONS section. "Somewhat spongy keyboard doesn't sense aftertouch"

 

It seems to me the Mitchell Sigman's greatest concern how is the ligtweight plastic construction feels delicate. "I'd be extra cautious plugging cables in and out of the the dainty rear panel" But he likes the 15 pound weight.

Seems like Keyboard has lowered their standards because this is barely criticism.

[CEB]

...I've always loved Korg synths (had the MiniKorg, still have Polysix and DW8000) and their budget synths were quite well built. At least up until around 2000. When I bought the MS2000 it felt very fragile and cheezy (despite some metal there) and the mainboard went up on me after a few years.

 

....

The DW8000 was a great board IMO. A lot of instrument for the $$$. I hated the DS-8. It was such a let down after the DW8000 which in my opinion was a better instrument. But I guess Korg just had to have FM.

[allan_evett]

I wanted to check out the list of factory Programs in the KingKorg, but could find no reference to it in the downloads link on the KK webpage. And there's no such list in either the owner's manual or KK Parameter Guide. A similar Google search turned up the same result.

Does anyone here know how I might find the list of sounds onboard the

KingKorg ?

[AnotherScott]

Yeah, it's kind of crazy that there's no data list for the KK.

 

There are 200 presets, but I don't have time to type them, and really, until you hear them, listing their names wouldn't be all that helpful... being primarily a VA synth, most of the patch names only hint at what kind of sounds they may be. But they don't even have a list of waves!

 

But if you're wondering about how much "bread and butter" it could cover if it had to, as secondary purpose to its VA emphasis, they do provide 30 useful PCM waveforms. No list! But that's short enough, I can list them out for you. BTW, I don't think that there are necessarily any factory programs for some of these. But it is an easy board to build sounds on (that's part of the point). So if you need any of these sounds, assembling the patches would be easy. The PCM waves are:

 

Ac. piano

Elec grand

Rhodes and Dyno

Wurli

2 clavs

5 organs (including an M1 and a Vox)

Marimba

2 bells

mellotron flute

2 brass

trumpet

strings

mellotron strings

3 choirs

acoustic and electric guitars

acoustic bass and 3 elec basses

 

(I didn't always use their patch names, but these are what the sounds are.)

 

Of course you can get a lot of other sounds you may need as well. There are plenty of standard synth waveforms, and DWGS waveforms., and even standard waveforms can often be coaxed into reasonable facsimiles of many other bread and butter sounds, as we did in the old days.

[Daniel Heslop]

I tried one out at a store a couple weeks ago.

I didn't have any complaints about the keybed on the one I played. It wasn't great, but it wasn't terrible, and all the keys worked.

The sounds were ok but I felt they were maybe a bit thin. I was using headphones though so maybe that was a factor.

[allan_evett]

Yeah, it's kind of crazy that there's no data list for the KK.

 

There are 200 presets, but I don't have time to type them, and really, until you hear them, listing their names wouldn't be all that helpful... being primarily a VA synth, most of the patch names only hint at what kind of sounds they may be. But they don't even have a list of waves!

 

But if you're wondering about how much "bread and butter" it could cover if it had to, as secondary purpose to its VA emphasis, they do provide 30 useful PCM waveforms. No list! But that's short enough, I can list them out for you. BTW, I don't think that there are necessarily any factory programs for some of these. But it is an easy board to build sounds on (that's part of the point). So if you need any of these sounds, assembling the patches would be easy. The PCM waves are:

 

Ac. piano

Elec grand

Rhodes and Dyno

Wurli

2 clavs

5 organs (including an M1 and a Vox)

Marimba

2 bells

mellotron flute

2 brass

trumpet

strings

mellotron strings

3 choirs

acoustic and electric guitars

acoustic bass and 3 elec basses

 

(I didn't always use their patch names, but these are what the sounds are.)

 

Of course you can get a lot of other sounds you may need as well. There are plenty of standard synth waveforms, and DWGS waveforms., and even standard waveforms can often be coaxed into reasonable facsimiles of many other bread and butter sounds, as we did in the old days.

 

Thanks for the info, Scott.. Lots of in-depth, 'analog' coverage here - at a fair price. And having the variety of vintage synth 'flavors' is refreshing - vs. the Korg synth specific Kronos VA, Nord VA, etc.. And ROMpler vintage synth samples get somewhat diluted in most rock mixes - even with multi-effects edits (adding compression, overdrive, etc..); I'm getting tired of leads that sound wimpy, and pads that wash-out.

Would be ideal if it existed as a table-top module, though. Last thing I need is another keyboard...

[Bosendorphen]

The only way to stop Japanese companies using CHINESE key beds in their products is avoid purchasing them.

 

Fixed that for ya.

 

 

Gad I prefer my CME UF7's keyboard (Chinese) to the Korg M3. I love the action and response on the UF7. I never understood the love for the M3 keybed.