KingKorg opinions ?

[mauriziodececco]

To resurrect the thread: between GAS and real needs, i focused my research on

the KingKorg on the low end of the budget and the Nord Lead A1 on the high end of it.

By the way, the price difference around here is no more than 200 euros. (18%).

(Yes, GAS push me toward the P12, but no real money for it).

 

Main use would be in a group, not for studio composition (but why not), so it will have to go around

at least once a week for rehersal. The style zill probably be Jazz/Jazz rock with some experimental

stuff (i love minimalist music).

 

On paper, the KingKorg seems a lot more flexible, but somehow i find the A1 sound more "real", present,

organic. (OK, this is the subjective part, i'll spend some quality time next week end with both keyboards,

i hope).

 

The A1 UI give full access to the instrument, even if the choices are reduced, and this appeal to me (i learnt synths on a MS-20/MS-50 combination .

 

I have the impression that the general feeling in terms of building quality of the instrument would

heavily favorise the Nord, right ?

 

Maurizio

[Dana.]

I have the impression that the general feeling in terms of building quality of the instrument would

heavily favorise the Nord, right ?

Right.

[CEB]

Is this going to be a part of a two keyboard rig?

 

If it is and you can work with 8 voices I would be deciding between a Nord Lead or Prophet 08. The controls layout on the Korg doesn't appeal to me at all if I want to manipulate sounds live.

[AnotherScott]

On paper, the KingKorg seems a lot more flexible

...

The A1 UI give full access to the instrument, even if the choices are reduced

If you happen to have an iPad, you can get more immediate access to many KK parameters through the PatchMorpher app (which, btw, also works with your Blofeld). But yeah, there's nothing like a panel full of knobs!

 

For the purposes to be served by this board, what are your minimum requirements in terms of polyphony and multimbrality?

 

 

[mauriziodececco]

Well, Prophet 8 (at least a new one) is out of budget; i also like the idea of having a sound palette that is a bit larger than a pure analogue.

 

In principle, the board will be part of piano+synth rig, where the piano will be acoustic when logistically possible.

 

Polyphony: enough to make a chord and a bass or lead line.

Idem for multitimbrality.

I plan to have no laptop in the rig, but probably the iPad,

 

And yes, this board will substitute the Blofeld in this purpose; i want i more direct access to sound. And i want very reduced technical setup and installation and problems.

As a computer professional, i do that all the time, and i want to relax :->

 

Maurizio

[AnotherScott]

If your biggest issue with the Blofeld is not enough direct access, have you considered the Studiologic Sledge? It's kind of a Waldorf with a full real time interface. KingKorg has more direct control access than the Blofeld, but is still kind of limited there.

 

The larger-than-analog-synth sound palette is an issue, though. KK has it, but as I said, still with pretty limited front panel controls. Your Blofeld has it through sample playback, but that feature is (AFAIK) not in the Sledge, nor in the A1. If you could find a used Nord Wave, that might serve you better than the A1 here.

[mauriziodececco]

Thanks, i'll check out the Wave and the Sledge also. In principle,

i will *not* sell the Blofeld, that will stay in my studio, also for other reasons. The board will substitute it in this specific project, but it will end up in the studio, were i'll still have the Blofeld, so i am not sure :-> ..

 

Anyway, the A1 have a bit of digital waves and some samples to enrich somehow his sound spectrum wrt the traditional analogue one.

 

Maurizio

[CEB]

The mixer section on the Sledge is nice. It is laid out like a Minimoog. The only weird thing (other than all the I/O being on the left side) is the filter sweep knobs are on the far right which sort of stinks if you want to play with you right hand will while doing a manual sweep. It is a cool looking board IMO.

[Catmandeux]

The KK is respectfully deep, but in typical Korg fashion it has too many parameters to program. It also has an unnatural "sheen" which to my ears doesn't sound anything like the filters it's supposed to be emulating. The frequency nodes where the phase shifts occur in a sweep just seem wrong when compared with the real deal.

 

The A1 is much more limited but it's so much easier to program. Plus dissecting a patch to learn why it sounds good is very straightforward without having to go on a safari. And the analog emulation sounds better, although resonance doesn't scream as much as true analog.

 

If you have the Blofeld, I'd skip the Sledge. You have the same engine and more waveforms. I don't see enough of a differentiation to justify it.

[AnotherScott]

If you have the Blofeld, I'd skip the Sledge. You have the same engine and more waveforms. I don't see enough of a differentiation to justify it.

I agree it's highly duplicative. My thought was, if the Blofeld worked for him but he wanted the knobby interface, he could possibly sell the Blofeld and buy the Sledge.

[Tomkeen]

I have owned a Blofeld and a Sledge and highly preferred the Blofeld. The Sledge is cool with the knobs and all, but the engine is not the same as the Blofeld's. It's a slimmed down version I believe. The difference in quality is very noticeable in my opinion.

 

If you want more immediacy the Nord Leads make sense. A second hand Nord Wave might make even more sense.

[mauriziodececco]

Thanks for all the hints and tips :->.

 

I cannot sell the Blofeld, i have developed some software for it that is still evolving and then will be need usual bug fixing and so on, so i need it handy. Also i like the sound and it is perfect for my composition oriented studio set up.

 

To go back to the roots of my need (more for me to make my thoughts structured than for asking help : for many years i have been a Cubase composer (actually, started with Pro24, with a TX16W and a TX802 and a M1000, last is still there . I have been quite happy with the results, been an amateur. I even made the music of a documentary (good ties with the Executive Director, my wife and some music for a friend short movies. Mostly electronic stuff in the german 70s style (with my own twist) and later some minimalist acoustic stuff (never really performed by real people, even if i tried hard at a given moment).

 

In 2002 i found a great Jazz piano teacher, that took me for what i was and helped me going forward with the piano; i discovered playing with other people, and slowed down computer composition (that is lonely, and lacks adrenaline, but it is still good .

 

In the last couple of years i have been thinking on how to marry the two sides of my musical personality; looking at the Mehliana duo on youtube was a shocking revelation :->.

 

So, what i am really looking for now is a synth that can actually be played as an instrument vs programmed as a computer. A synth for which i could fully grasp, and that i can interiorize and feel and connect to, even in its technical characteristics. A synth intended to be my second instrument after the piano. A synth i can use as a tool to look for musical freedom and expression and not to cover standard ground. Either that, or i drop the subject and start to study trumpet :->.

 

This imply a very good ergonomic. Probably some simplicity (even if the P12 gave me the impression that its complexity is not in the way of mastering it).

 

This imply also some character; an instrument must be inspiring, but does not need to be universal.

 

Than there are mundane constraints like money, space, weight. And less mundane one, quirky : if i can develop my software for it (i.e. enough sysex support), i can charge it on my IT consultant activity (even if this specific software will never pay for it , and solve the classical musical vs family budget subject :->.

 

This is how i get to the initial short list :->

 

Thanks for reading,

Maurizio

[AnotherScott]

So, what i am really looking for now is a synth that can actually be played as an instrument vs programmed as a computer. A synth for which i could fully grasp, and that i can interiorize and feel and connect to, even in its technical characteristics.

SInce you already have the blofeld and iPad, I would check out the aforementioned PatchMorpher app. If it gives you a sufficiently satisfying experience, that opens up, not just the possibility of using the Blofeld, but if you prefer a different sound/feature set (or just want to leave the Blofeld set up as is), also any of the other boards that the app works with (King Korg, assorted DSI, some others). If it doesn't work for you, I think you'll need to stick to something with dedicated knobs, and I don't think the King Korg will satisfy you in this regard, if the PatchMorpher app doesn't really do it for you.

 

I take back the idea of selling the Blofeld if you get the Sledge. There may be sonic overlap, but for you, there would be logistic/operational benefits to having each. The Sledge can't replace your Blofeld for what you need the Blofeld for, and the Blofeld would not be able to replace the Sledge if you also need something fully knobby. The sonic overlap might not matter if they are really serving different functions for you.

 

The Nord Wave is still my top pick for you if you can find one, because of its sample playback capability.

[mauriziodececco]

I am checking PatchMorpher; i don't think it correspond to what i am looking for (playing vs programming), but it surely look very useful to using the Blofeld, i'll try it out.

 

And i am looking around for a Nord Wave to test :->

 

Maurizio

[omvibes]

Hi all, resurrecting this thread because I'm looking for a one-stop analogue emulation unit, and the KingKorg keeps coming up as an option.

I already have some old Creamware modules (Minimax and Pro 12), which sound great, but I need something gig friendly and compact (and hardware) that can cover a lot of analogue bases accurately - moog, Prophet, Oberheim, Roland Jupiter etc.

I'm aware of the keybed quality issues (although I saw a recent Snarky Puppy youtube video with their keyboard player cranking out a huge Moog-like solo on a KK, so can't be all bad), my question is do the various analogue filters sound true to the originals? And, very importantly, has anyone got great Roland Jupiter/ Juno sounds out of the KK (no official Roland poly filter on the KK as far as I know).

If the KK doesn't fit the bill, are there any other options out there? I already have a Virus Ti for futuristic sounds, and a Nord Stage for piano/ organ etc sounds (the latter is already stuffed to the brim with non-analogue sounds, so no space there - and I have never been too convinced with Nord's analogue sound library).

Other options I guess could be a Nord Wave filled with Nord sample library stuff (but see above) or an Alesis Ion, but both have four octaves which is off-putting.

Another option I have thought of using an Ipad (I have one, already loaded with many analogue-focused apps), but I am not convinced of it's gig-friendliness and general cohesiveness within a larger set up...

Any thoughts?

[Don Headley]

Look for a Roland SH-201. I paid $200.00 for mine. The sound is great. Unlike the KK the controls are laid out in the correct place and, you have knobs for all functions. No holding down the shift button and spinning the jog wheel with your left hand while playing a solo with your right.

I was going to buy the KK until I played it at American Music in Seattle. Its layout is wrong and some functions require two hands. The worst part is the filter control knobs are on the right.

The sounds on the other hand are some of the best I've heard. Very smooth filters. I wish Korg would come out with a KK mII with knobs for all functions located in the normal order of operation.

[AnotherScott]

I'm aware of the keybed quality issues (although I saw a recent Snarky Puppy youtube video with their keyboard player cranking out a huge Moog-like solo on a KK, so can't be all bad)

For your purposes (analog synth emulation) they keybed really isn't bad at all. It actually feels pretty nice. The issue is the short hinged keys which make the rear parts of the black keys hard to play. But this is much more of an issue when playing velocity-sensitive sounds (which analog synth sounds typically are not). It also becomes more of a factor when playing chord like Eb, where you would tend to play the black keys further up, but again, less of an issue if you're not dealing with velocity sensitive sounds.

 

As an analog synth emulator, I like the KK a lot. It's versatile, the filter options are cool, and the tube adds a nice richness. It's not as knobby as it first appears, though, because a lot of the knobs are dedicated to effects rather the synth functions, and when you need to get past the knobs, the editing is clumsy. But you have an iPad, so you should check out Patch Morpher at http://www.jazzman-ltd.co.uk

 

Since you want 61 keys, you don't have a lot of options! Studiologic Sledge could be an option. Very knobby! But I think you'll probably prefer the KK sonic versatility.

 

As for the option of integrating an iPad, you already have it, so why not just try it and see what you think? The Nord Stage EXT function allows you to easily integrate the iPad into that board's presets.

[Al Coda]

I already have some old Creamware modules (Minimax and Pro 12), which sound great, but I need something gig friendly and compact (and hardware) that can cover a lot of analogue bases accurately - moog, Prophet, Oberheim, Roland Jupiter etc.

...

I already have a Virus Ti ... and a Nord Stage

 

Because you like the sound of the old Creamware modules and also know WHY you like ´em, and because you already own a Virus TI, which to me is a better synth than the King Korg,- and a NORD Stage,- I´d say you have 2 options, depending on your budget by nature:

 

DSI P12 and/or John Bowen Solaris.

 

At least you get Roland Juno OSC in J.B. Solaris and a s##tload of filter modules as well as Minimax (Minimoog D, Pro12/Profit5/Prowave (SCI Prophet 5, different revisions) and ProOne/ProTone (SCI Pro One) OSCs and filters as also Oberheim multi-mode filter emulations.

There´s much more under the hood like Waldorf OSCs and PPG Wavetables, Prophet VS wavetables and vector synthesis, .raw & wav sample playback in the sense of new waveforms for the sample OSCs, a overall 4-channel synthesis architecture as well as good onboard FX which include also some esotheric ones.

 

Solaris is much more flexible than DSI P12 but is also more expensive.

BOTH are great synths though !

 

A.C.

[Justin Havu]

* Many low-cost MIDI keyboards have pretty decent key beds (excluding the bottom line of M-Audio.)

Really? Which ones?

 

I've tried them all -- Akai, Alesis, Arturia, Behringer, Korg, Line 6, M-Audio, Nektar, Novation, Roland, Samson -- and, to me, none of them feel "pretty decent." There's always something wrong with them: too tightly sprung, too spongy, the pivot point is wrong, the keys are uneven, it's too difficult to get a good velocity range, the keys are too short, the keys have rough edges, the key travel is too shallow, etc. And that's just the keys; there are plenty of other issues with build quality, knobs and sliders, wheels, drum pads, etc.

 

Makes me wish I'd kept my MIDIBoard! However, I had to deal with a really buggy OS and sold it quite a few years back.

 

Anyway, the action of a keyboard makes it or breaks it for me. Sure it would sound good, but what's the use if it isn't playable? I had such a hard time with my church's Ensoniq KS-32 over a year ago, that I had to start bringing my own instrument (Quadrasynth.) Haven't touched the KS since.

[DulceLabs.com]

Since you want 61 keys, you don't have a lot of options! Studiologic Sledge could be an option. Very knobby!

 

I see price on the Sledge dropped from $1600 to $1000. Makes it very tempting. Any idea why? Not selling?

[CEB]

It should drop some since out has been out a while. At $1000 it is a lot of synth for the money. It has some routing limitations. I don't like the I/O being on the left hand side. It is cheaper plastic Construction.

 

But If I only had $1000 to spend on a synth I would probably get the Sledge. A new Firmware update expands it to a 16 voice machine. My problem with the $1600 pricetag is I would rather have a P08.

[Kenny Ingram]

Hey omvibes, I would echo Don Headley's comment about the Roland SH-201. You aren't going to find a better keyboard with all the realtime controls laid out for you right on the front panel like a real analog synth anywhere near the price. They're usually around $200-$300 used now, and for that price, it's an absolutely amazing Virtual Analog synthesizer.

[omvibes]

Thanks for the input everyone. The Solaris would be great, if I had the cash. The Sledge looks a nice keyboard, but as far as I know, it's known for having it's own character, rather than being a clone? Regarding the Sh201, that had not been on my map at all, I've read very indifferent reviews of it, and it's only four octaves, which is an issue for me.

[DulceLabs.com]

The Sledge looks a nice keyboard, but as far as I know, it's known for having it's own character, rather than being a clone?

 

It is loaded with classic analog waveforms plus wavetables from the PPG wave so I am guessing it can emulate a lot of classic synths. I would watch and listen to some demos then decide the sound is right for you.

 

This is just one of several demos out there:

[video:youtube]

 

If I was in the market I would scoop one of these up in a heartbeat!

[AnotherScott]

It is loaded with classic analog waveforms plus wavetables from the PPG wave so I am guessing it can emulate a lot of classic synths.

It doesn't emulate all the different filters like the KK does, though. Still it's interesting, in watching that demo, that you can tell by the patch names that they are attempting to emulate the sounds of some different classic synths (offering no comment here about what level of success they are achieving). Geoff Downes uses one to play the MiniMoog parts with Yes, so it may be a matter of just how demanding you want to be. ;-) One thing that puts me off is that, in mono mode, according to the manual, the glide only works when playing legato, which is very un-analog, and will get in the way of authenticity in a pretty obvious way if you're trying to duplicate some 70s era sounds.

[DulceLabs.com]

^^^ Very astute technical details! ^^^ Like I said in my previous post, one really needs to listen to the demos and see if the sound "does it" for them. It seems like the Sledge with it's chunky knoby goodness and Fatar keyboard, combined with parts the KK's sound engine specs would make for a great VA synth.

[AnotherScott]

Getting back to the iPad idea, if it works for you sonically, but you miss the real knobby interface, a Sledge is a pretty reasonably priced way to get a nice synth controller. The knobs send out CC, and you can program most iPad apps so that the CC you want controls the parameter you want. So you should be able to use the Sledge knobs and keys (with aftertouch) as a performance board to turn almost any iPad synth into a real time knobby synth, with a knob layout that is sensible and well-labeled for typical VA purposes. You could probably even load a few different iPad synths assigned to different MIDI channels, and use something like the iMIDIPatchbay app to switch among different sounds using different synth apps.

[omvibes]

Thanks for the continued input. Quite like the Sledge, but not convinced that it is what I am looking for, too much overlap (in theory) with the Virus TI, and not enought filter emulations (although I would need to investigate that part of it a bit more). Also, perhaps I need to investigate the ipad/ Stage 2 integration route a bit more, that could well work.

I see no-one has mentioned the Nord Wave/ Clavia analogue library as an option, any opinions on that?

Truth be told, if the KK had a Roland Jupiter/ Juno filter clone in it, my decision would probably have been made by now.

[lekanout]

I discoverded this morning this KK thread.

It was so fun to read the first part where so many people think like me for the keybed..

 

In fact the king korg is certainly one of the best sounding VA for the price.

I spent 2 hours on it and it was pleasant to hear.

Nothing is wrong for the sound i think.

 

But the keybed is boring.

I hate this kind of keyboards because it seems it's not made for people who love playing keyboards.

It seems for me they are made for some geeks who wants to turn knobs and don't care about playing music with fingers.

I'm sure it's a kind of truth about how people buy synth today..

It's a shame for me.

 

Imagine the king korg with a solid hardware and a very good keybed..

I would be a killer instead of a consumer product for people who want to dream they are synth players..

[AnotherScott]

Quite like the Sledge, but...not enought filter emulations (although I would need to investigate that part of it a bit more).

AFAIK, it doesn't do any filter emulations. It has variations like 12/24 dB slopes, but it is a Waldorf filter, and not modeled after anyone else's. Filter emulations (and the tube) are where King Korg really differentiates itself.

 

[video:youtube]

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

 

I see no-one has mentioned the Nord Wave/ Clavia analogue library as an option, any opinions on that?

You've already said you're put off by the 4 octave keyboard and "have never been too convinced with Nord's analogue sound library" so you probably already know more about what you'll think about it than what anyone else can tell you. But if you're not sure, you have the Nord Stage 2, right? While it doesn't give you all the sonic capabilities of the Wave, it will give you a general feel for the Nord character. It will also let you load in the same analog samples. I understand you don't have sample space to spare, but just as a test, offload some stuff and load in some of the vintage synth sounds and you'll get a flavor (though again, the Wave allows you to manipulate them in additional ways). Of course, the sampled sounds do not behave as they do on the original synths (between the fact that they are sampled rather than generated, and also that the subsequent Filter and other processing you do on the samples will be based strictly on what's implemented in the Nord), but this will also give you a taste of what to expect out of them on a Wave.

 

Truth be told, if the KK had a Roland Jupiter/ Juno filter clone in it, my decision would probably have been made by now.

It has a Roland TB-303 filter emulation ("Acid"). So it does have a Roland-based filter. I don't know how similar or different it is compared to any other particular Roland synth, but it presumably at least sounds Rolandy. ;-)

 

http://fa.utfs.org/diy/roland_filters/

 

You said you're looking for a hardware/keyboard based "one-stop analogue emulation unit" - sonically, that's pretty much what the King Korg was designed to be. Though again, it has its limitations, in action and interface. The Sledge is cool because it gives you a good emulation of an analog interface, but it is not specifically designed to emulate vintage synths sonically.

 

Other boards you might consider... Roland's FA-06 (and Jupiter 50 with better action, and Jupiter 80 with even better action) have LPF2/LPF3/LPF4 settings that are, I believe, emulations of Roland Jupiter 8, Prophet, and Moog filters. (Although it shares the "SuperNatural Synth" facility, these particular options do not appear to be available on the VR-09.) And on the higher end, short of the Solaris, the Arturia Origin may be the most sophisticated vintage analog emulator, with filters modeled on ARP 2600, Minimoog, Jupiter-8, and Yamaha CS-80. Besides emulating the filters, they also emulate those specific oscillators, and those of the Prophet VS.

(Edit: Origin also includes Oberheim modeled filters.)