Hammond Clones "Live" Cutting Thru The Mix...??

[Baldwin Funster]

I took him to mean he thought organs had 88 keys like piana does.

[MichaelHg]

Someone asked this earlier in the thread, but I didn't see an answer.

 

Any thoughts on how well the VB3 software measures up against it's use in hardware instruments like the Mojo and Hamicord?

 

Look again, I posted about it.

 

I found it, thanks mate.

[MichaelHg]

Personally, although it took some getting used to, I'm liking the VB3 on a weighted 88 note controller that I also use for piano. Of course, the layout is different, but I think it's a closer organ experience than an SK1 or Electro 3 because of the extended range.

 

this is truly a WTF? comment. I'm gonna have a few more beers and re-read it and see if it makes any sense at all then.

 

Go ahead, rag on me all you want guys, but answer this- how is using an 88er weighted for organ and piano any different, or any worse, than spending $4K for 'the convenience' of a Nord Stage and doing exactly the same thing? Nobody seems to be dissing Nord Stage users.

 

Besides, IMO, the VB3 is a better organ than Nord offers, and the Vintage D that I use is a better piano. And coming from a background of Hammond consoles, I don't consider playing organ on a single 61-73 note keyboard to be particularly authentic either, and THAT'S what I compared playing a weighted 88er to, not a two manual. If I was doing straight ahead organ gigs, I think I'd jump on a Crumar Mojo.

[surreal mccoy]

 

Go ahead, rag on me all you want guys, but answer this- how is using an 88er weighted for organ and piano any different, or any worse, than spending $4K for 'the convenience' of a Nord Stage and doing exactly the same thing? Nobody seems to be dissing Nord Stage users.

 

 

 

That's an excellent point....I was essentially asking this question in my response to your statement. If an organist feels more comfortable playing piano parts on a non-weighted board, wouldn't it stand to reason the pianists used to weighted boards may fine it just as comfortable for them to trigger their sounds/ voices from a weighted board?

 

I personally feel more comfortable playing an 88 weighted board for piano and a nonweighted organ type board for organ....but hey....to each his own....

[surreal mccoy]

Now back OT.....

 

Has anyone compared the Numa, SK1 or NE4D in any sort of live performance context?

[Jim Alfredson]

Besides, IMO, the VB3 is a better organ than Nord offers, and the Vintage D that I use is a better piano. And coming from a background of Hammond consoles, I don't consider playing organ on a single 61-73 note keyboard to be particularly authentic either, and THAT'S what I compared playing a weighted 88er to, not a two manual. If I was doing straight ahead organ gigs, I think I'd jump on a Crumar Mojo.

 

Wasn't ragging on you, just confused. If you're talking about splitting the single manual, then yes 88 keys makes more sense than 61, but playing organ on a weighted action is still heretical.

[MichaelHg]

Besides, IMO, the VB3 is a better organ than Nord offers, and the Vintage D that I use is a better piano. And coming from a background of Hammond consoles, I don't consider playing organ on a single 61-73 note keyboard to be particularly authentic either, and THAT'S what I compared playing a weighted 88er to, not a two manual. If I was doing straight ahead organ gigs, I think I'd jump on a Crumar Mojo.

 

Wasn't ragging on you, just confused. If you're talking about splitting the single manual, then yes 88 keys makes more sense than 61, but playing organ on a weighted action is still heretical.

 

Really nice playing on the SK2 video, Jim!

 

AFA anyone's comments, I wasn't offended, just surprised by some of the 'enthusiasm', and I guess it IS somewhat heretical to play organ on a weighted keyboard

 

Back on topic, I remember the way people used to hotrod their Leslie's so they would cut through the mix better- really bright, higher power drivers etc? It's always been an issue with Leslie's in a rock situation. I imagine most of the current clones with their more directional onboard rotary effects would be able to cut better than the real deal.

 

[Jon May]

I tried the NE4HP in-store as a possible replacement for my NE2, but a couple of exploratory slaps and smears convinced me that a weighted pianistic action was just not appropriate.

[Bossbandbob]

We just moved into our guitar/lead singers practice space and he said no need for me to bring amplification as he had a KB amp there (I usually use a Yamaha powered mixer and PA speakers). When I got there I found that the amp was a Fender FM100 head that he had "hotroded and converted for keyboards." The Speaker box had Celestion Greenbacks. I had my doubts at first, but that amp really pumps and cuts through the band really well. On its tone knobs I had to cut back on the highs quite a bit on both the channels, esp. the one I used for organ (VK7) and increased the mids but it did not sound half bad running clean with the Vent used for any OD. Listening to a recording of practice, it seems still to be lacking in the midlows but I still have some leeway in the mid tone adjustment and a lot in the bass.

[Baldwin Funster]

Eventually your keyboards lows will kill those greenbacks. Try EVM12L's 200watt version.

[MichaelHg]

I tried the NE4HP in-store as a possible replacement for my NE2, but a couple of exploratory slaps and smears convinced me that a weighted pianistic action was just not appropriate.

 

IMO the Nord HP keyboard action does neither organ nor piano well.

[surreal mccoy]

I tried the NE4HP in-store as a possible replacement for my NE2, but a couple of exploratory slaps and smears convinced me that a weighted pianistic action was just not appropriate.

 

IMO the Nord HP keyboard action does neither organ nor piano well.

 

The NE4D addresses the action with it's waterfall/ organ keybed and works well....+ the physical drawbars are only a +

[Bossbandbob]

Eventually your keyboards lows will kill those greenbacks. Try EVM12L's 200watt version.

Yeah, I was wondering what I think are 25W speakers were doing with a 100W head. I have some Yorkville e160 PA speakers I'm thinking of trying with it.

[Baldwin Funster]

Its also that they are guitar speakers. The super low freq's will cause the voice coil to overheat and melt the coil. I've killed a few guitar speakers this way.

[Bossbandbob]

My band played in a Tributefest last Sat night and got to hear some Clones firsthand that I never heard live before. Despite all the negative publicity about it, a young guy in a 70's soul tribute band was on a Hammond XK2,using the internal sim and playing through an old guitar amp that was mic'ed into the club's very good PA and it actually sounded pretty damn good to me! It helped that this guy could really play organ, however.

Another Keyboardist for a Govt Mule Tribute was on a Korg SV1 not sure what he was playing through but the organ sounded just passable to me. Another guy in a Beatles cover band played a Nord Electro (can't remember if it was 2 or 3)Through a bHERINGER kb Amp which also sounded very good through the PA but not that much better than the XK2. Me in my Petty Tribute played a VK7/Art tube pre through a Vent and Stereo Yamaha powered mixer and Stage monoitors DI'ed to the FOH. Of course I could not tell how I sounded on the floor but the guy with the Nord thought my rig sounded great. Of course the ultimate compliment was when he (who was damn good too) complimented my playing.I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that a good FOH and sound guy can maybe help any rig sound better?

[Griffinator]

Eventually your keyboards lows will kill those greenbacks. Try EVM12L's 200watt version.

Yeah, I was wondering what I think are 25W speakers were doing with a 100W head. I have some Yorkville e160 PA speakers I'm thinking of trying with it.

 

1) Don't worry about the wattage. You'll never open it up enough to blow them.

 

2) Those speakers seem to do just fine reproducing the low end of a 7-string guitar drop-tuned to Ab... I don't think they'll get cooked...

 

[zoooombiex]

I regularly use a guitar amp live for organ when the stage is too small to also fit a PA. I never have any problem being heard and it sounds great. A lot of people seem to immediately associate guitar amps with a very overdriven Lord-type sound but it doesn't have to be distorted like that by any means. Mine is only a 50 watt amp, and I never get it above 3 on the volume, so there is lots of headroom and it sits perfectly in the mix.

[surreal mccoy]

I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that a good FOH and sound guy can maybe help any rig sound better?

 

I would tend to agree. My point of concern was within my own stage mix along with dealing in situations without the benefit of a FOH sound guy. Often times, I'm playing small trio venues in which I'm needing my keys and small, active cab to cover all bases. Over the years, i've discovered different boards that seem to work better than others in this respect.....something that's not necessarily clarified initially via headphones.

[Mr. Green]

Hello. This is my first post. I am such a novice it's embarrassing. But it doesn't stop me from buying equipment I don't understand. I usually learn the bare minimum to get me by in my summer band and the guys are always screaming' for the B3. I've followed this thread and it goes on for four pages. I barely even know the language you're using so go easy on me.

 

Here's what I own and here's what I want.

I have a MOX 8 and a pulgin for the Yamaha Organ Emulator YC-3B. As nice as the Yamaha voices are their best organ doesn't get me there. I haven't even installed the Cubase yet to see the YC-3B but is this what you mean when you write "Sim." Is a Sim either a simulator like the Neo Vent (which I now am familiar with) or is a Sim a VST plugin like the YC-3B? I've got to know the language before I can communicate and understand. So that's what I have.

 

You know what I want or rather the band wants. Anything approaching even feebly, a B3. So, is anyone familiar with the YC-3B and, if so, is there anything promising for me in attaining a better B3 sound? (this is how novice I am. I assume I have to run this voice from a computer through my MOX but who wants a computer on stage? Is there any way to load the voice onto the MOX ahead of time?)

 

OR, must I spend $400 on a Neo Vent and just use it on my MOX organs? The MOX has a lot or rotary speaker adjustments you'd think I could come up with something decent but I haven't yet. I barely understand all these effects. It would be nice to come up with something and save the $400. I've been playing a Roland for the past three years because it's easy to use but I don't like the voices. I love the MOX voices but it's a really intimidating instrument for me. Hey, I didn't even have a calculator in high school). Thanks in advance to whoever reads this tortuous email.

Richard (Mr. Green)

P.S. Please talk as simple as you can for my benefit.

[Bossbandbob]

From tributefest. VK7 & Vent with Yammy S08 for Synth and EP

 

 

[video:youtube]

 

[video:youtube]

[Baldwin Funster]

Note to Mr Green. Sorry but that Yam wont satisfy your B3 jones.

 

I havent heard or heard of a good yamaha B3 clone. No sim will rescue it. The vent is the best commonly available leslie sim. That and any dedicated B3 clone will be far more satisfying than a yamaha patch.

[Bossbandbob]

Note to Mr Green. Sorry but that Yam wont satisfy your B3 jones.

 

I havent heard or heard of a good yamaha B3 clone. No sim will rescue it. The vent is the best commonly available leslie sim. That and any dedicated B3 clone will be far more satisfying than a yamaha patch.

 

Yeah, Yammys are usually better at Piannys

[Mr. Green]

Well thanks guys. Yes, Yammys are better at pianos and that's partly why I got the MOX. It's keyboard action and pianos are great. But it has so much more. Is the MOX, a scaled down Motiff, not well thought of in this community as a performing keyboard? Just wondering.

 

And may I ask what a dedicated B3 clone is. Remember, I'm a for real novice. Thanks.

Richard (Mr. Green means I'm green when it comes to digital music)

[mate stubb]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clonewheel_organ

[zoooombiex]

Going back to the OP, I finally had a chance to use a Numa Organ at a show with a full band (guitar, sax, drums, bass, percussion). In the past, I've used a NE3 and XK3c at shows, and have used an SK-1 at practice, and am pretty familiar with their sound - at least for my purposes.

 

In my experience, the Numa had the least "cut" of the four organs I've used - assuming they are all at the same drawbar registration. I normally run the other three around 888500000 as a base sound, and they cut fine.

 

The Numa on that setting is pretty dark, though very full and not muddy - just not a lot of cut. I found myself running the Numa more like 678883000 to get a comparable base sound. (Don't hold me to that exact number, but I basically tapped in the lowest drawbars a bit and pulled out a few more to get it to sit right in the mix.)

 

However, with that adjustment in mind, the Numa sounded great. The other organs obviously have more brightness on tap, but I find they can get a bit harsh when you really start to pull out the high drawbars. The Numa has a very smooth high end, and with all the drawbars out that's about as bright as I'd ever really like it to be anyway.

 

Also, on a related note, the treble control on the Numa isn't a huge help on this issue. It's kind of like a high-end brilliance control. It doesn't really affect where the sound sits in the mix, just a little extra high-end color.

 

I'm very far from the best organ player around here, but for what it's worth there's one more data point on the chart...

[Baldwin Funster]

I'd like to see a chart that would tell what a equivalent drawbar setting would be:

 

Through a leslie VS. DI with a Vent.

 

I notice that when I set a tone up when going direct into a recording desk, I have to ease up on most drawbars to get what I thought the setting would sound like.

 

For example I want 888000000, I have to set more like 765000000.