Roland V-Combo VR-09

[mate stubb]

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20051217131750/bladerunner/images/7/73/BladeRunner_Spinner.jpg

[voxpops]

I was comparing the organ on the RD-64 to the Numa, and found that the Roland doesn't run out of steam in the top octave, whereas the Numa starts to sound a little weak and muffled in the highest notes. The other issue that the Numa has for me is that the drive just doesn't sound even close to an overdriven Leslie growl. Besides those two minor nitpicks, the Numa remains pretty much the perfect clone for me, and I presume that the drive issue could be solved by using an outboard tube preamp, if I wanted to go to the trouble.

 

The VR-09 will doubtless retain Roland's top octave organ clarity and balls. However, its distortion was even worse than the Numa's on first hearing. Even so, I'm still vaguely tempted by the Roland's tight footprint and synth engine. I may go back and give it a second try, and hopefully compare it to the Electro 4. I know that I was not taken with the VR's CV in addition to the drive, so I doubt that my opinion will be different on second listening, but it would be good to hear it A/B'd against the NE4 (and possibly the SK1). If anyone has already done a comparison with the Electro, I'd love to read it. I think I'd prefer to spend the extra bucks on the Nord, but there would need to be a wide margin between them to make it worth it.

[RetroVintageOld]

$999 sets an all time low price point for a clone

What about the Casio WK series? Drawbars. Single trigger percussion. Not a half bad rotary sim. You have to admit it's as much of a clone as the VR09 is. (I mean raw features, not sound quality)

 

If the new AC and EP sounds from the PX5s work thier way into the Casio work stations I think all of these products (electros, SKs, Vr09s) will have a real run for thier money.

[Craig MacDonald]

$999 sets an all time low price point for a clone

What about the Casio WK series? Drawbars. Single trigger percussion. Not a half bad rotary sim. You have to admit it's as much of a clone as the VR09 is. (I mean raw features, not sound quality)

 

If the new AC and EP sounds from the PX5s work thier way into the Casio work stations I think all of these products (electros, SKs, Vr09s) will have a real run for thier money.

RVO, I never really considered the Casio a real clone wheel, based primarily on the crappy sound quality (my opinion), however as more keyboards begin to include drawbar organ engines its getting more difficult to figure out exactly where to draw the line as far as what is or isn't a real clone. We have dedicated clones.. Workstations with clone engines like Kronos and kurzweil, and "clones with benefits" like the SK1, Electros that are capable of other sounds.

 

Even though I never considered the Casio XW to be a real clone because it sounded so crappy, I suppose technically I would have to lump it in with the workstations with drawbar organ engines.. The VR-09 I would classify as a clone with benefits like the electro and SK1.

 

Things are certainly getting interesting and if Casio improves its organ engine as much a they have improved their acoustic piano emulation, things could get even more interesting, I agree.

[Dana.]

 

Quite astounding/ridiculous that this thread has 1,000+ posts. There is nothing about the VR that justifies that.

 

 

if you don't count the 500 or so posts by hammondave and others who aren't even in the market for a lightweight organ-centered gigging keyboard, the number starts to appear more reasonable.

Let's be fair: at least half of the posts in this thread are Craig!

[Craig MacDonald]

I figure about every third one... ;-)

 

I've passed 750 posts thanks to this VR-09..

 

Craig

[HammondDave]

Really Craig? Where do your expectations stop for a $999 keyboard?

 

Are you asking a serious question now Dave? ;-)

 

Listen, rather than getting into the weeds and debating the minutae of this instrument, I prefer to celebrate the tremendous value that it is.. all by itself, $999 sets an all time low price point for a clone, but Roland has thrown in a sample player, with a pretty good cross section of pretty good acoustic sounds and it's top of the line VA synth.. that really seems like tremendous value to me. Do you really expect me to sift through the murky minutae and tell you exactly what I would and wouldn't expect in a $999 instrument, just so you can disagree with me on it?

 

No, I am just a bit confused.

 

When someone brings up what many of us feel is a design flaw, you get on our asses and say "What do you expect for $999?" But when you come up with what you consider a design flaw, all of a sudden you expect Roland to fix it. I am just asking you what you consider are suitable compromises for a $999 clone... Seems like a fair question to me...

 

And please understand that it is not unreasonable for many of us to expect more for $999. That still seems like a lot of money to me.

 

For many of you who feel that I am just picking on this instrument, I made it known of my disappointment with the apparent move to cheapen musical instruments after my visit to NAMM this year.

 

The VR-09 is only one example of this. I saw it all over NAMM. The new EV speakers, while sounding decent, do not come near the professional quality of their older models that where built in the USA. The Vice President of EV was quite candid when he told me of their philosophy of producing cheap powered monitors now made in China. "Sure, it does not sound as good as the EV SXA360, but its only $399!" Sounds alot like the logic I hear on this thread. "Sure it has a crappy diving board keyboard, but its only $999!"

 

As long as we put up with these compromises, the manufacturers wont give a shit what they give us. Someone will buy it.

 

I hope I am wrong on this one, but good luck getting any software upgrades... The only way that will happen is if people start returning their products. You can call me a cynic, or a market realist.

 

 

[SteveCoscia]

If the new AC and EP sounds from the PX5s work their way into the Casio work stations I think all of these products (electros, SKs, Vr09s) will have a real run for their money.

 

Bingo!

[Ekewaka]

If someone would have told me 20 years' ago that Roland would produce synthesizers with very cheap key beds I would have laughed...

 

... ten years's ago, if someone would have told me that Casio would launch a professional workstation with excellent piano sounds under a grand I would have laughed, too. So there's a little bit hope for Roland in the future.

[Craig MacDonald]

Dave, I think the difference is as follows.. You and a couple of others are criticizing this $999 keyboard for things that are obviously intentional things, for example build quality, choice of an inexpensive diving-board style keyboard etc. those things are obvious design choices and without completely revamping the manufacturing process, they aren't going to change... So YOU and a few others need to accept that!

 

On the other hand, those things that I am hoping will be fixed or redesigned are OS related, and easily updated and/or fixed should Roland decide to do so.. For the record I think they will.

[Ekewaka]

If the key bed production is a cost issue, then why did Casio put in an 88-fully weighted keyboard with excellent touch for the same price?

 

PS: I just got an IK Multimedia iRig keys keyboard, slightly smaller keys and about the same feeling as a VR-09 but for $99 I expected that kind of quality for the key bed.

[HammondDave]

Dave, I think the difference is as follows.. You and a couple of others are criticizing this $999 keyboard for things that are obviously intentional things, for example build quality, choice of an inexpensive diving-board style keyboard etc. those things are obvious design choices and without completely revamping the manufacturing process, they aren't going to change... So YOU and a few others need to accept that!

On the other hand, those things that I am hoping will be fixed or redesigned are OS related, and easily updated and/or fixed should Roland decide to do so.. For the record I think they will.

 

My friend... you just made my point... I accept that Roland made a cheap keyboard with cheap components. You and others have obviously chosen to accept this into your rigs. That's cool. I have heard great musicians make even the shittiest equipment sound good.

 

But these operating system changes you ask for may require a bit more processing power than Roland is willing to pay for. So time will tell if your wishes will be answered. Again, I hope I am wrong. I just have little faith from past experience.

[HammondDave]

If the key bed production is a cost issue, then why did Casio put in an 88-fully weighted keyboard with excellent touch for the same price?

 

PS: I just got an IK Multimedia iRig keys keyboard, slightly smaller keys and about the same feeling as a VR-09 but for $99 I expected that kind of quality for the key bed.

 

I know... Makes you wonder why Roland would not even put in waterfall keys! How long did we fight for that? Like over ten years ago when the XK2 came out... WTF?

[Craig MacDonald]

If the key bed production is a cost issue, then why did Casio put in an 88-fully weighted keyboard with excellent touch for the same price?

 

I'm sure that Roland could have put a better keyboard in it but then they might have made trade offs elsewhere.. I quite like the trade offs they've made here, as it stands, and given all it can do. That said I hope that they do fix what I think are some design flaws and bugs.

[HammondDave]

If the key bed production is a cost issue, then why did Casio put in an 88-fully weighted keyboard with excellent touch for the same price?

 

I'm sure that Roland could have put a better keyboard in it but then they might have made trade offs elsewhere..

 

Yeah, like that "D-Beam" is so useful.... Sure worth screwing up the keyboard for that! (very sarcastic)

[Ekewaka]

My guesses (personal only) about the cheap key bed in VR-09 are:

 

* Save costs to crank up profit margins

* Based on the current state of new keyboard players coming from the MIDI controller world not even used to high quality key beds so they could ride on that assumption for a while, even with a clone organ that should have an excellent key bed as the starting point.

* Cannibalization of their Jupiter-50 line in case the key bed was better, which is sad as it's better a new product in the same company eats up the old products rather than an outside company product.

 

[Craig MacDonald]

 

My friend... you just made my point... I accept that Roland made a cheap keyboard with cheap components. You and others have obviously chosen to accept this into your rigs. That's cool. I have heard great musicians make even the shittiest equipment sound good.

 

 

Dave until you stop bitching about it you haven't truly accepted it. ;-)

 

Seriously, why do you have trouble accepting that Roland can sell a V-combo at one price point for +$2000 and a VR-09 with diving board keys for $999. I don't think that this means that Roland has chosen to give up building high end keyboards and just compete with Casio in the low end market.

 

I do think that there is a market for this 12 pound hammond clone. Even with some guys like myself who normally go for top of the line gear.

[mate stubb]

THAT's what ticks me off - the V-Combo keybed (at least the old one, have not touched the new) was the finest feeling waterfall keybed I have ever played amongst the clones.

 

Why not use that?

[Joe Muscara]

THAT's what ticks me off - the V-Combo keybed (at least the old one, have not touched the new) was the finest feeling waterfall keybed I have ever played amongst the clones.

 

Why not use that?

This.

[Craig MacDonald]

Guys,

 

The VR-700 is available at sweetwater for $1999, if that's what people want, go buy it.. It's 35 pounds rather than 12 pounds and I'm sure that for the pro player it has lot's of advantages over it's little brother the VR-09.

 

However the VR-09 is a different instrument targeted at a different audience and for that target market it has some serious advantages too.. like 12 pounds, and a built in VA synth, some cool live effects and an iPad editor.

 

Obviously some people don't like the keyboard.. fine let them go buy something more expensive, there are lots of options..! However, we're on page 38 now and the debate about the keyboard is getting really old!!!

 

Those of us who own one probably want to talk about how it works, what our thoughts are, compare notes on features/bugs/design issues etc.. all of this keyboard discussion is just getting in the way of us doing so.

 

The thing is that now is not the time to debate about the keyboard.. that horse left the barn.. it is what it is.. if you want to debate everything that's wrong with the music business these days, how about we start a new thread and leave the VR-09 thread for those of us who own one, or who want to buy one, and who are intersted in exchanging valuable information!

 

 

[mate stubb]

Actually this thread started as a new product announcement, and the debate has been about the new product.

 

Might be easier to start a new owner's tips and tricks thread, as has been done recently for other boards.

[Joe Muscara]

Only because it's your birthday, Craig.

 

[Craig MacDonald]

Might be easier to start a new owner's tips and tricks thread, as has been done recently for other boards.

yes I agree I think it's time..

[HammondDave]

Me thinks Craig is getting a tad testy....

 

And by the way... The keyboard sucks!

 

Ok, now onto new product trashing... Where shall I go? Someone release something crappy. Please!

[eric]

This keyboard is almost as polarizing as a Nord!

[jcazzy]

I think everyone should go back to playing multiple vintage keyboards to satisfy their taste in how each instrument should play.

 

Eh?

[brenner13]

I think roland saw a niche between the Casio XW and other better clone wheels and this board is the result. Hypothetically (for whatever that's worth), if this had been developed with a better keybed and wound up $1299, I probably would have still purchased one, even though it probably would have weighed closer to 18 lbs. Add aftertouch and it may have been close to 20 lbs and possibly retailed closer to $1599, and with only 61 keys I probably would NOT have purchased one. I think that would have put this board too close to other products they still have inventory on like the VK8m and VR-700 which I still drool over.

This is just my particular scenario, but many work-a-day folk that gig two times a month more or less might find a decent value with this easy to transport and set up subject of debate.

 

I can see Dave's and others points about buying inferior quality can encourage corporations to continue designing and building inferior product, as I have not really been serious about a new keyboard for nearly a decade, was shocked to hear the acoustic pianos in the VR while painfully plastic to my ear, are accepted as normal to good in the industry as a whole. I was also amazed at the pluthera of yucky cheap keybeds on the lower end offerings. I thought I wanted a Korg PS-60 when they first came out, but then I played one and the rinky-dink keys sent me away empty handed and disappointed.

 

I was disappointed with the VR09's keys at first...the sub-par piano sounds, and several other things, but I find the organ plays quite well with these keys, which is the main reason I bought the thing.

 

Along with Craig and others, I fully expect Roland to update the OS and address several issues that seem to be easy software fixes, but am still having a lot of fun with the thing already.

 

[Jazzmammal]

I have to really laugh here. People are arguing about the fine points in a 12 pound keyboard that is not marketed to you guys. It's marketed to the young guys who will be using the looping function and dubstep warbling stuff and making the kinds of sounds that will make all of us here run out the door screaming, No Mas, No Mas!!

 

Yes I know this particular demo video is not about that but other's I've seen are targeted towards that crowd and trust me if this thing is a success it will not be because of a bunch of old farts arguing about the keybed feel or whether you can layer the B3 and a piano or not, it will be about how a 23 year old can loop and screech a dance party with it. The kids don't give a flying crap about what you guys are talking about and they're the overwhelming majority of the market now, not us and Roland knows it.

 

Bob

[Ekewaka]

I have to really laugh here. People are arguing about the fine points in a 12 pound keyboard that is not marketed to you guys. It's marketed to the young guys who will be using the looping function and dubstep warbling stuff and making the kinds of sounds that will make all of us here run out the door screaming, No Mas, No Mas!!

 

Yes I know this particular demo video is not about that but other's I've seen are targeted towards that crowd and trust me if this thing is a success it will not be because of a bunch of old farts arguing about the keybed feel or whether you can layer the B3 and a piano or not, it will be about how a 23 year old can loop and screech a dance party with it. The kids don't give a flying crap about what you guys are talking about and they're the overwhelming majority of the market now, not us and Roland knows it.

 

Bob

 

I kind of think that market you are talking about would rather use Ableton Live for this purpose than VR-09. I would use Live myself for that kind of music. Also defeats the whole purpose of the clone engine built into VR-09 plus all the AC, EP and clav sounds. If Roland was aiming for that market they would have added tons of buttons to trigger loops instead.

[Jazzmammal]

I think they're just covering their bases during the transistion.

 

No doubt Abelton is huge and getting bigger but if a kid has keyboard skills a good keyboard that can do that stuff would be a hit with him.

 

I'm still very surprised at what Kurzweil did with their video demos of the new Kore 64 expansion. Kurz has always been the pro's pro keyboard known for killer acoustic sounds and emulations which is why I bought my PC3 but check out those vids for Kore 64. I think their marketing dept has turned a corner and it's just the beginning of the flood.

 

Bob