Roland V-Combo VR-09

[voxpops]

Seems to me that any "live performance" keyboard should have this feature.

It's surprising the number of boards that stumble at this hurdle - even some of the more expensive ones.

 

But I also thought that any Hammond clone would have a waterfall keyboard as well. So I guess my expectations are just too high.

I would say that the VR is as much a synth as it is an organ, and so I don't think the lack of waterfall keys is that big of an issue - they are at least well rounded at the edges/lips to allow for smears etc. In another post, I suggested that people might be better off not thinking of it as a clonewheel, as its feature set, layout and implementation fall a little short of a true clone. It's more of a hybrid instrument along the lines of the PC3, albeit at a lower level.

 

(Edit: It surprised me initially that the VR always starts up in piano mode, which makes me think it was never intended to be primarily an organ. Due to the dearth of (and therefore demand for) low-cost, lightweight, multifunction clonewheels, we on this board have tended to concentrate on its organ features, but a lot of players may find its other sound blocks more useful, depending on their style.)

[HammondDave]

I would say that the VR is as much a synth as it is an organ, and so I don't think the lack of waterfall keys is that big of an issue - they are at least well rounded at the edges/lips to allow for smears etc. In another post, I suggested that people might be better off not thinking of it as a clonewheel, as its feature set, layout and implementation fall a little short of a true clone. It's more of a hybrid instrument along the lines of the PC3, albeit at a lower level.

 

(Edit: It surprised me initially that the VR always starts up in piano mode, which makes me think it was never intended to be primarily an organ. Due to the dearth of (and therefore demand for) low-cost, lightweight, multifunction clonewheels, we on this board have tended to concentrate on its organ features, but a lot of players may find its other sound blocks more useful, depending on their style.)

 

Not to continue to beat a dead horse, but could someone please explain to me why a diving board keyboard would be preferred by any musician? Seems to me for acoustic piano, electric piano, organ, and many other sounds a waterfall keyboard would be preferred... Especially if the keyboard powers up defaulting to a piano.

 

(Sometimes I feel like I am in "groundhog day". We had this discussion 15 years ago!)

 

 

[Ken Beaumont]

Dave,

I agree there I never have liked diving board keys. Unfortunately some must because they are everywhere! Voxpops is right about it being as much synth as organ. It appealed to me for the fact that it had PCM & VA synth sounds that my SV1 lacks as much as the fact it has a nice sounding organ. I could never use this as an all in one, I went that route for awhile with a Juno D. As long as I don't have to play piano on it I can suffer through the diving board keys.

[Ekewaka]

Kind of curious why people pay $999 and suffer playing the keys? Today you don't need to suffer if you pay the same amount and if nothing else use good used gear....

[voxpops]

Kind of curious why people pay $999 and suffer playing the keys? Today you don't need to suffer if you pay the same amount and if nothing else use good used gear....

As has been said before, there is no other lightweight organ/synth apart from the XW-P1 and the Stage 2 Compact. Personally, I found the Casio's organ inadequate, and the Stage 2 beyond budget. The PC361 is heavier (and also has diving board keys); the SK1 does not work as a synth; the Electro's sample player does not qualify as a synth; the PX-5s has a weighted action, and is not a serious clonewheel contender. I'm wondering which board - past or present - you're referring to.

[Ken Beaumont]

Yeah buy used gear and have it fail after a month! I've done that too. This has a warranty backed by Sweetwater. And no board I have ever played has been perfect. What $999 used board do you know of that has waterfall keys, that also has a VA Synth plus Organ?

[Ekewaka]

Kind of curious why people pay $999 and suffer playing the keys? Today you don't need to suffer if you pay the same amount and if nothing else use good used gear....

As has been said before, there is no other lightweight organ/synth apart from the XW-P1 and the Stage 2 Compact. Personally, I found the Casio's organ inadequate, and the Stage 2 beyond budget. The PC361 is heavier (and also has diving board keys); the SK1 does not work as a synth; the Electro's sample player does not qualify as a synth; the PX-5s has a weighted action, and is not a serious clonewheel contender. I'm wondering which board - past or present - you're referring to.

 

For a more fulfilling organ experience with some synth and piano sounds including excellent EPs, I would save money and get a used Electro 3. GC sold new ones for around $1600 recently so you might get a used one for $1500 or below. Adding another $500 to get a professional keyboard is not a big deal.

 

As for a more pleasant synth experience, I would look at anything Yamaha used.

 

And if you are solely in for a weighted keyboard with excellent piano/EP/Wurl sounds with a surprising amount of synths, look at Casio's PX-5S. It's bigger, indeed, but a 24lbs keyboard is not a big deal to carry around. Also, it does not flip off a keyboard stand if the singer nudges it :-).

[Craig MacDonald]

So you're suggesting a $1500 used keyboard and another Yamaha synth to do what the VR-09 can do?

 

The electro 3 can't do what this keyboard can do. No split and layer and no VA synth.. There is nothing that can do what this synth can do for twice the price.

 

You don't seem to get this... And you think it should be priced at $599? That's a joke!

[Craig MacDonald]

And who wants a weighted action keyboard for organ, and who wants 24 pounds when you can have this nice package for 12 pounds... Spend $1.99 on some Velcro.

[voxpops]

 

For a more fulfilling organ experience with some synth and piano sounds including excellent EPs, I would save money and get a used Electro 3.

I have owned the Electro 3 (both 61 and 73). The sample section was barely usable to me, and it could not be layered or split. The organ was OK, but I much prefer the organ in the NE4. My Numa beats the pants off the NE3 organ IMO, and I've been using it with various synth modules via its (clunky) MIDI control section. That works, but I wanted a smaller, lighter all-in-one (synth/organ) second tier alternative - the VR fits the bill much better than the NE3. As for pianos/EPs, I have those covered on my weighted boards.

 

As for a more pleasant synth experience, I would look at anything Yamaha used.

We're not talking about a synth experience, we're talking about a hybrid organ/synth, and for that I would not touch Yamaha.

 

And if you are solely in for a weighted keyboard with excellent piano/EP/Wurl sounds with a surprising amount of synths, look at Casio's PX-5S. It's bigger, indeed, but a 24lbs keyboard is not a big deal to carry around. Also, it does not flip off a keyboard stand if the singer nudges it :-).

For me, the PX-5S is no substitute for the VR. They are completely different and not interchangeable. Since we've been discussing the clone properties of the VR, I find the suggestion of the PX in this context a little bizarre.

 

[Craig MacDonald]

Bizarre isn't the write word..... But it is very polite and I commend you for that!

[Ekewaka]

So you're suggesting a $1500 used keyboard and another Yamaha synth to do what the VR-09 can do?

 

The electro 3 can't do what this keyboard can do. No split and layer and no VA synth.. There is nothing that can do what this synth can do for twice the price.

 

You don't seem to get this... And you think it should be priced at $599? That's a joke!

 

No, it's not a joke. The Electro 3 organ sounds are miles ahead of what VR-09 could do. The key bed is 10x better. Only gripe I have with Electro 3s are the skimpy amount of RAM for adding more samples but someone could live with that in case they are not that interested in lots of synth patches, just 10 or so.

 

Splits are nice for bass playing but if you don't need that, there's seldom a need for splits, at least with the gigs I'm doing.

 

I find it also intriguing that 12lbs is something cool for a keyboard weight, most people could carry 24lbs, even me with my back problems. Actually it's good I carry more heavy things to keep my stomach muscles in shape to avoid future back problems. Light weight is nice but not a necessity.

 

I still maintain that VR-09 should cost the same or less than the forthcoming Korg Kross or Yamaha MX as it's really competing with those, not with Nords and Casios.

[Craig MacDonald]

As far as i am concerned virtually everything you just said is wrong!

[Ekewaka]

As far as i am concerned virtually everything you just said is wrong!

 

Sure, if you feel so. Music is subjective, anyway. Now, those who picked up Electro 3s recently from GC got a really good deal. I was thinking about getting one but then PX-5S arrived and I needed a full 88-key set for lounge/restaurant gigs, otherwise an Electro3 would be far better than VR-09 for my gigging purposes.

[Stokely]

I'd have to seriously get used to the electro3 keybed...that's the main reason I didn't get one. Serious question, I've only ever played a couple real b3s...are the keys that stiff? It's been years but I remember them being very easy to play, the electro's are difficult IMO.

 

pc361 is diving board, but compared to some boards it's easy to play organ (example being my Motif, I like the Motif action but it's not nearly as easy to play organ on it, I think due to the throw length of the keys). I'd love it if it was waterfall though, the idea for all non-weighted boards to be waterfall sounds great to me! Let's get on it

 

I am thinking about an electro HP if I saw a good deal as I need a stage piano as the sounds are great....anyway sorry for the derail, but it shows that keybed preference is as subjective as anything.

[iluvchiclets]

I actually prefer a generic keyboard when using a synth with different types of keyboard models onboard.

 

One of the less satisfying things about the Nord Electro (and the SK1 to some extent) is using Electric pianos, pianos, and synths on their keys...I prefer the feel of using a regular keyboard. Perhaps it the tension or action of the keyboard?

 

Whereas, in contrast, on the Motif keyboards I find all the instruments tend to feel and play easily. Even on my MOX.

 

I don't think I will have a problem with the VR-09 keyboard design unless it is really cheap, which I somehow doubt.

 

I personally am not too bothered with waterfall keys or not...I mean, it's not like we are playing on the ends of the keys - we are playing on the top. Or am I missing something?

[HammondDave]

To each their own.... We all have different needs and thank God there are tools to satisfy them... We also have different priorities. To the people who have purchased the VR 09,

I applaud your decision. You have obviously found a tool that will work for you.

 

Go with peace...

[Craig MacDonald]

To each their own.... We all have different needs and thank God there are tools to satisfy them... We also have different priorities. To the people who have purchased the VR 09,

I applaud your decision. You have obviously found a tool that will work for you.

 

Go with peace...

 

Now you're talking Hammonddave!!!

 

Now if we could only get what's his name to stop talking about his PX-5s and how he hates the VR-09 keyboard we could probably whittle this thread down to ten constructive posts a day!!

[HammondDave]

 

I personally am not too bothered with waterfall keys or not...I mean, it's not like we are playing on the ends of the keys - we are playing on the top. Or am I missing something?

 

It all depends on the keyboard. Some diving board keyboards are actually smaller in width then the standard Hammond or piano keyboard. My Motif XS7 keyboard, as nice as it is, is like this. Being a Hammond player, it is a bit disconcerting as my fingers have to adapt to the smaller width as there is a 3/8" difference when playing an octave. Does not sound like much, but it does affect me.

 

When I asked about this on the Motif Forum, it was revealed that this design goes all the way back to the DX7! Yamaha felt that they had to continue this width because it set a "standard"...

 

To me, next to the sound, the keyboard feel is the most important factor in a musical instrument... Obviously many people like the VR09 keyboard. Fine with me....

[voxpops]

If the Electro 3 works better for you, you buy an Electro 3. There's no one here suggesting anything else. But if your requirements go beyond what's provided in the NE3 (or any other board) you need to know whether the VR can adequately meet those additional needs. That, surely, is the purpose of this thread.

 

It's been well established that the VR-09 does a lot of things quite well, and a few things poorly. Is the overall mix of features and performance adequate for your needs? No? Then look elsewhere. No problem. Might it work? Yes? Ask questions, go check it out. Could it be improved? Yes? Then hound Roland by all means. But why would someone want to subvert the thread, and divert people away from the VR, seemingly at all costs? I don't know. Maybe they have a haughty opinion about what's "right" in a board, and cannot abide the fact that others don't share their absolute conviction, or maybe they have some fetishistic attachment to some other brand/board that requires they mention it at all times, whether relevant or not. I don't know, but I do know that these people constantly risk diminishing their own credibility.

 

I know we should maintain a sense of humor, and not take these threads too seriously, but people do come here for advice, and it would be nice if they didn't have to wade through too much irrelevant ranting on their way to their new purchase!

[Ekewaka]

Key beds are indeed very subjective, everyone has their own preferences which is fine. Now, it's extremely tough to make a key bed that works across piano to EP to organ to synth playing. For me the closest someone managed to do that compromise was Nord, hence why you see a lot of one-keyboard only gigs with Nords. And they had to do compromises, too.

 

Now, my biggest gripe with the VR-09 key bed was the very short action. I always want to have some depth so I could have fun with velocity values so the keys are not plain on/off switches, especially for EP and similar sounds. I also had fond memories of the earlier Roland keys such as Jupiters and Fantoms so I was surprised to find this kind of short action key bed implementation. I even tried the VR-09 twice at different occasions to make sure this was not for me.

 

Anyway, key beds are for us keyboard players what fretboard/necks are for guitar players. If you don't feel comfortable playing with the instrument, it's not fun.

 

PS: I don't have anything against the sounds in VR-09, it's no Nord on the organ side but does a good job, otherwise. I would not even mind all the quirks and issues with the 1.0 implementation just now. And they should reprogram the cheesy lead synth sounds, I'm sure VR-09 could do more analog/creamy sounds than the ones provided. Oh and get rid of that awful OD effect.

 

 

[voxpops]

Key beds are indeed very subjective, everyone has their own preferences which is fine. Now, it's extremely tough to make a key bed that works across piano to EP to organ to synth playing. For me the closest someone managed to do that compromise was Nord, hence why you see a lot of one-keyboard only gigs with Nords. And they had to do compromises, too.

 

Now, my biggest gripe with the VR-09 key bed was the very short action. I always want to have some depth so I could have fun with velocity values so the keys are not plain on/off switches, especially for EP and similar sounds. I also had fond memories of the earlier Roland keys such as Jupiters and Fantoms so I was surprised to find this kind of short action key bed implementation. I even tried the VR-09 twice at different occasions to make sure this was not for me.

 

Anyway, key beds are for us keyboard players what fretboard/necks are for guitar players. If you don't feel comfortable playing with the instrument, it's not fun.

 

PS: I don't have anything against the sounds in VR-09, it's no Nord on the organ side but does a good job, otherwise. I would not even mind all the quirks and issues with the 1.0 implementation just now. And they should reprogram the cheesy lead synth sounds, I'm sure VR-09 could do more analog/creamy sounds than the ones provided. Oh and get rid of that awful OD effect.

 

I agree with a lot of this. I, too, much prefer longer key lengths, but I find I'm able to adapt sufficiently to the VR's keybed to make it worthwhile. I suspect the design decision on keybed has a lot to do with keeping the board within certain dimensions (under 12" front to back). I found the XW-P1 bordered on being too deep for certain stands, and could interfere with access to lower-tier controls.

 

As for synth sounds, it would be great if Roland (et al) could come up with some alternative lead patches that could be loaded. I'm not using an iPad, and it would be nice to have some further choices available.

[HammondDave]

I'm not using an iPad, and it would be nice to have some further choices available.

 

You're not? Why not? The iPad gives you so much more flexibility in sounds. I use Alchemy, Animoog, and Neo Soul Keys in my studio pallet. If I were still gigging, my iPad would be a wonderful accompaniment to my XK3c, SK1, XS7, or even VR-09.

[Craig MacDonald]

This is my next project.. I have the iPad, some apps and an interface.. Looking to create an alternate gig rig for smaller venues. Maybe the VR-09 and an iPad for some alternate sounds, like minimoog and mellotron etc!

[Ekewaka]

A cheap/good midi controller + iPad + connection kit goes a long way. The GarageBand B3 is very nice for an organ plug-in.

[voxpops]

I'm not using an iPad, and it would be nice to have some further choices available.

 

You're not? Why not?

Because I'm an old dinosaur who is always last when it comes to adopting new technology. I'll probably get there one day, but I would have preferred that Roland made their editor cross-platform, so I didn't have to go out and buy yet another new device. Ironically, one of the reasons I bought the VR-09 was to have a good palette of sounds without recourse to a PC or similar, as I prefer my boards to be self-contained, and I don't really like gigging with a computer. That said, I do enjoy using VB3...

[HammondDave]

This is my next project.. I have the iPad, some apps and an interface.. Looking to create an alternate gig rig for smaller venues. Maybe the VR-09 and an iPad for some alternate sounds, like minimoog and mellotron etc!

 

Definitely! Now if we can only get Guido to port VB3 to the iPad.....

 

Craig,,, you should really check out Alchemy... Pretty damn impressive....

[rien]

(Edit: It surprised me initially that the VR always starts up in piano mode, which makes me think it was never intended to be primarily an organ. Due to the dearth of (and therefore demand for) low-cost, lightweight, multifunction clonewheels, we on this board have tended to concentrate on its organ features, but a lot of players may find its other sound blocks more useful, depending on their style.)

 

Remember that Roland themselves market the VR-09 as an organ: it is listed in the combo-organ section of their website, along with the VK-8, not in the synth or piano section.

 

That's this marketing that makes us focus on its organ "abilities".

[HAMEGZ]

(Edit: It surprised me initially that the VR always starts up in piano mode, which makes me think it was never intended to be primarily an organ. Due to the dearth of (and therefore demand for) low-cost, lightweight, multifunction clonewheels, we on this board have tended to concentrate on its organ features, but a lot of players may find its other sound blocks more useful, depending on their style.)

 

Remember that Roland themselves market the VR-09 as an organ: it is listed in the combo-organ section of their website, along with the VK-8, not in the synth or piano section.

 

That's this marketing that makes us focus on its organ "abilities".

 

 

Maybe because of this???

 

So to make MIDI Program Change messages of more practical use, Roland found it necessary to adopt a standard "patch bank". In other words, what was needed was to assign specific instrument sounds to specific patch numbers. For example, it was decided that patch number 1 upon all sound modules should be the sound of an Acoustic Grand Piano. In this way, no matter what MIDI sound module you use, when you select patch number 1, you always hear some sort of Acoustic Grand Piano sound.

 

Taking it further, somewhere in a galaxy long ago it was determined that the benchmark for a "keyboard" would be how great its acoustic piano sound was , based on some marketing and a throw of the dice. That could be why we are greeted by an acoustic piano patch in position one or upon power up.

[rien]

I'm not using an iPad, and it would be nice to have some further choices available.

You're not? Why not?

I'll probably get there one day, but I would have preferred that Roland made their editor cross-platform, so I didn't have to go out and buy yet another new device.

 

I am planning on taking care of this flaw. It will take a little bit of time though...