organ sound question motif vs pc3 vs clonewheel

[Stokely]

Hello, new to this forum though I've certainly lurked quite a bit

 

I realize my question is certainly apples to apples to oranges. I'm doing an upgrade to my rig and would like to get the most immediate bang right away. Specifically to my organ playing and sound.

 

My main board is a Motif classic. Itsounds ok with piano, nice on EPs, fair with synth and the organ is....well let's just say I'm not too happy with it. Understandable with an older rompler.

 

So my questions, specifically related to organ:

How much of a difference will I see going with the PC3 over the motif?

 

Secondly: how much better would an XK-1 or CX3 (my two main contenders) be than the PC3 as far as organ?

 

My budget limit is around 1200. So it must be said that if one of these is cheap enough (probably the xk1) I could possibly get a Ventilator if I didn't like the leslie sim. The motif sim is so bad I have to take great care in when it gets used

 

Thanks, appreciate any thoughts! Apologies to anyone from HC who answered these very same questions I posted there ;-) I go round and round on gear purchase decisions, I was really terrible when it came to getting a guitar...

 

 

[CEB]

I love the Motif engine. But their organ emulations suck. Exactly which tool is right for you depends on you and how much time you spend playing organ parts vs other stuff. But traditionally Hammond organ emulation has not been Yamaha's strength to say the least.

 

The PC3 would be great. I would take that over a clone unless you are going to spend a huge majority of you set playing organ parts.

[Stokely]

Appreciate the reply. Yes overall my Motif has been a great board. It's the oldest one and from what I've heard of the later motif sounds (mox8, s90xs) they sound even better.

 

I think I'm going to end up with a clonewheel eventually (if not right away) for the keys and drawbars, not to mention the vibe But if the pc3 is a huge jump up in that dept then I may get that first.

 

Edit, just caught your edit! Pc3 sounds like the smart choice. My imagination has been fired looking at those darn wood-enclosed clonewheels I must say. The funny thing is the band complements the hammond sound I get now, they are not used to having a keyboard player I'm thinking they may be suitably impressed with either new board.

[AnotherScott]

My main board is a Motif classic. Itsounds ok with piano, nice on EPs, fair with synth and the organ is....well let's just say I'm not too happy with it. Understandable with an older rompler.

 

So my questions, specifically related to organ:

How much of a difference will I see going with the PC3 over the motif?

 

Secondly: how much better would an XK-1 or CX3 (my two main contenders) be than the PC3 as far as organ?

Are you looking to replace the Motif with another board, or to supplement it with a second board? (And does your Motif have a weighted or unweighted action?)

[CEB]

I'm running on 2 hours sleep totally misread your post. I play an XK3c into a leslie. It heavy but I like it. I control a rack synth with the hammond but i need a trailer to haul my stuff. The PC3 for 1200 I think is whole lot of versatile horsepower. If I was smart I would do that.

 

[Stokely]

Are you looking to replace the Motif with another board, or to supplement it with a second board? (And does your Motif have a weighted or unweighted action?)

 

My Motif is the unweighted 61-key. Not great for piano but I only play rock stuff so I get by. I am considering the semi-weighted PC3 or even the big PC3x, though of course those wouldn't be great for organ. Regardless of how good the pc3 organ is, I would like to get a clonewheel as well, just might not happen right away. I play a lot of organ--I suck at it but I play a lot! I've played lots of tunes in bands where there's no keys on the record, and I just find that organ plays very well with guitars...it's my default option over piano/ep/strings.

 

As far as second board: The PC3 would replace the Motif eventually. But for a while my two-board setup would be both of those. (I actually have another board, an older Virus, but I don't play much synth at all in my current band so it's not in use).

 

If I got a Cx3 or similar then I'd use it and the Motif until such time as I could replace the Motif. That's my plan and I'm sticking to it! (until I change my mind again...)

 

btw one reason the older cx3 is a strong contender is I like how the drawbars send midi controllers--from reading it appears you could easily map them to software. I have Logic's organ and could always get VB3 if they were better than the cx3's sound--the main thing I can't upgrade is the keybed, and by most accounts that is nice on the cx3. Any thoughts on the keys compared to the xk1 (which doesn't have such a nice midi implementation...)? I loved the xk3c keys, and hate the electro ones.

 

[AnotherScott]

My Motif is the unweighted 61-key. Not great for piano but I only play rock stuff so I get by. I am considering the semi-weighted PC3 or even the big PC3x, though of course those wouldn't be great for organ. Regardless of how good the pc3 organ is, I would like to get a clonewheel as well, just might not happen right away

...

As far as second board: The PC3 would replace the Motif eventually. But for a while my two-board setup would be both of those.

While you're using them together, the unweighted Motif could drive the better organ sounds of a weighted PC3x over MIDI. If you add the clonewheel and phase out the Motif, you also may prefer having that unweighted clonewheel board over the weighted Kurz.

 

If I got a Cx3 or similar then I'd use it and the Motif until such time as I could replace the Motif. That's my plan and I'm sticking to it! (until I change my mind again...)

Right, if you got the clonewheel first, you could replace the Motif later with whatever weighted board if you decide you might like to have that action available.

 

one reason the older cx3 is a strong contender is I like how the drawbars send midi controllers--from reading it appears you could easily map them to software. I have Logic's organ and could always get VB3 if they were better than the cx3's sound--the main thing I can't upgrade is the keybed, and by most accounts that is nice on the cx3. Any thoughts on the keys compared to the xk1 (which doesn't have such a nice midi implementation...)? I loved the xk3c keys, and hate the electro ones.

The later digital CX3's feel a lot like the XK1 to me, I suspect they may even be the same fatar keybed. And while the Electro is also fatar (and maybe even the same model?), they tweak it, and I don't like it either, it is too highly sprung. Which is a shame because an E3 would also be in your price range, and would give you some non-organ benefits over the XK1/CX3, though the latter do have the nice woody look and traditional drawbar operation. The earlier digital CX3 models feel a little better to me than the later ones, albeit not waterfall. I think the Roland VK-8 is also a great feeling board, and I think it's drawbars also send MIDI.

 

In the mean time, it seems like you could also drive Logic or VB3 from your Motif, regardless of what else you do and in which order, which will immediately address your organ sound issue with stuff already at hand.

[Stokely]

All good points. Yes, I have the option now to use the Logic organ. I do at home for sure when composing.

 

Interesting about the Vk8. My friend has the Vr760, which I believe is the same organ engine. He gets a nice rock sound out of it. I like the feel on it a lot, but am 99% sure that it doesn't send midi out the drawbars--however, since the vk8 is a dedicated clonewheel it may. I'll check on that.

 

I was watching a clonewheel "shootout" with Tom Coster, Booker T and others, and they brought that up about the CX3, that it had gotten a bit stiffer. I'm off to Sam Ash, hopefully they have an Xk1 there to try out if they are similar.

 

One (ridiculous) intangible with smaller boards--I'm a large person. My wife mentioned after watching me play my two 61-key boards that they looked too small So there's that! I can't imagine doing a gig with just an electro for that reason. Seriously a used electro 3 would fit the bill for me but that keybed...

[wmp]

The PC3 KB3 will give you a substantial improvement over an old Motif. It qualifies as a clonewheel with a synth engine dedicated to that, full drawbar, percussion, and C/V control. The 2.0+ Leslie sim is pretty good, but many others are better. It has aux outs so you can route organs to a Leslie or a Ventilator. That'd fool most of the people most of the time.

 

I can play organ on a piano action better than I can play piano type sounds on an unweighted board. I was playing organ on the PC2x before I got my XK-3. Similar to an older Motif in that there are some nice sounds that work well for some stuff, but they lack full control you get with a Hammond or clone. It really makes a difference having the shorter waterfall keys with a more appropriate feel. Real drawbars are a must for me. I'd rather play organ on an XK-1 or CX3, but if I had to pick one board to do everything it'd be a PC3x.

[HammondDave]

Or just do as I do... Use your Motif to drive the VB3...

[Theo Verelst]

I used a S90 for years, it is big and heavy... It doesn't try to influence of its (organ) sounds beyond sounding dry. The PC3 does, unless you do a lot of work (which most can't) to make it sound neutral. After all such work is (would be) done, the PC3 machinery blows everything else away. Straight from analog out from the preset organs sounds, neeaah, nope, doesn't cut it, doesn't sound like a nice organ, and doesn't allow for any decent chords to sound right, except maybe in C major on prescribed speakers, without playing jazz.

 

The motifs can play some fine enough jazz, and with some other gear processing it, some very bearable rock organs, which is pretty good. The "actual organ" (sound) experience from the clonewheels I don't think is much in there. But my Yammy is almost from a decade ago, and the XF sure has a lot alluring other sounds, so maybe the organs are more interesting too.

 

You have to think about the "do I like to play this instrument" factor, as well as the "is everybody bored with the sound after two songs" factor. Both is *pretty good* with the Yamaha's I've played. Even though the Kurzes have incredible (seriously enough) potential to sound like the real things, it rarely gets there for me with the rom sounds.

 

T.V.

[Stokely]

Thanks for the responses.

 

I think I'll certainly bring out the laptop for the next practice and shake things out before I gig. I also have a little Korg nanocontroller that I set up as drawbars, overdrive and a few other settings. I don't like the fiddly nature of the setup with the laptop but I'll see how it goes.

 

Just got back from Sam Ash...blargh. They had exactly one "organ", and that was a Roland vr700. Interface-wise I prefer the older vr760...but it does have a nice action. Aside: why the heck do music stores not pay more attention to what they are playing their keyboards through? Everything was running through tiny powered monitors way up on the wall...everything sounded weak and thin, I should have brought my phones (though phones are misleading too...)

 

Anyway, I got to play a PC3 Le8--and wow I'm not used to weighted keys! My acoustic piano at home has a very light touch. It sounded good, though the piano did not have a lot of dynamics going on...no big deal for the live stuff I do. Organ-wise, the leslie sim (which of course isn't the newer Big Leslie) sounded not half bad especially compared to what I'm used to with my Motif.

 

As mentioned, they had none of the organs I'd like to try out but they did have a Kronos; I know it has the CX3 "engine". Well: I was not real impressed with it. It may have been the patches: very "overbaked" and just plain weird-sounding. Several of the patches had a fast leslie that was going at least twice as fast as I've ever heard a leslie go (?) Sounded like an lfo on a synth set to super-fast. The Kronos has so few controls to use, and they are so tiny, that I don't think it would be all that fun to play for organ. EPs sounded incredibly dynamic though. The piano on the weighted version had what sounded like an incorrect velocity curve set--barely touch it and you got a "hard" piano sound.

 

Anyway, it's all clear as mud now!

[Theo Verelst]

So now the Kronos is overbaked. Well, I don't know about that.

[Stokely]

So now the Kronos is overbaked. Well, I don't know about that.

 

No, I certainly did not mean to imply that! That comment was only about the organ patches I tried, and may have been a poor choice of words. Most seemed to be a bit over-processed or something, while I was looking for more of a plain jane sound to evaluate the tone.

 

It was unfortunatel that really nothing in the store sounded good through those speakers, so I tried my best to keep that mind.

[AnotherScott]

They had exactly one "organ", and that was a Roland vr700. Interface-wise I prefer the older vr760...but it does have a nice action.

The VR-700 has one of my favorite keybeds... great for organ, and passable (as these things go) for piano. I don't remember the feel of the VR-760, I played it so long ago, and wasn't focussed on that at the time. Each has some features the other doesn't. I think the 700 is more flexible in how it handles splits and layers with non-organ sounds... but the 760 had aftertouch and could take SRX cards.

 

Everything was running through tiny powered monitors way up on the wall...everything sounded weak and thin, I should have brought my phones (though phones are misleading too...)

Sam Ash will lend you a pair of store phones to use, just ask.

 

they did have a Kronos; I know it has the CX3 "engine". Well: I was not real impressed with it.

...

The Kronos has so few controls to use, and they are so tiny, that I don't think it would be all that fun to play for organ.

It is not immediately obvious, but the hard buttons and knobs are all mapped (and remappable) for organ functions... so you do have big, hard buttons available for percussion, etc. Basically, all the controls you would want. Though I do wish companies would stop with the black buttons on a black background. At any rate, one of its virtues is how tweakable it is... beyond the main controls you would map to the hard controllers, you can go in and adjust a myriad of parameters. The flip side of that is that you don't necessarily hear it at its best out of the box. I keep meaning to find the time to tinker with this myself. As others alluded to in a recent thread, I do seem to find it less satisfying than playing a real CX3, and I'm not sure why yet. I do have access to both, and want to get them next to each other.

[Stokely]

I sounded a bit critical of the Kronos in my earlier post--it should be said that most patches in any board I've ever had tend to be over-the-top and I end up programming my own. The eps were incredible and the piano sounded great (minus the velocity issue) and I have no doubt the synths and strings are very nice.

 

I'm getting a little punchy with my head spinning from option to option in the last month. I'm horribly indecisive with buying gear. As somebody said in a different thread in a far away place, just get something and start playing! Not like I don't have 40 songs to tighten up for Friday

 

Edit: also it looks like the VK8 sends midi controller messages out of the drawbars that will map to EVB3 in Logic at least, that opens up another option!

[MoodyBluesKeys]

As you can tell from my avatar, I'm a fan of the PC3 for all around sound. Even if you decide to just keep the Motif, that combination would give you good sound for most band ensemble use. (Hint - the KB3 organ Leslie sounds considerably better if either run in stereo, or one side only - the summing that occurs when you plug in just to left channel out with no plug in right channel does not sound as good as either side by itself). I've modified the different Leslie effects (the PC3 uses about 15 different Leslie simulations, that vary considerably). Most mods are in changing the wind up/wind down times, and slowing the fast rotor and LF rotor a bit.

 

I had a Nord Electro 3 for about a year. Sold it and bought the PC361 on their closeout. Nord advantages: lighter weight, somewhat better organ sound. Nord drawbacks: no where near as versatile overall, and I got to where I really didn't like the Hammond sound in that varying the drawbar settings didn't really follow what I was used to in working for years on real B3's).

 

IF I were doing very exposed organ work (like in a jazz trio), I'd want a better organ sound - then my choice would be between the Mojo, XK3C, possibly SK2 - because no single manual clone is going to have the full effect of two close mounted manuals in being able to play it, also the possibility of adding full pedals.

 

I have considered adding a Ventilator to the PC3 sound, it would improve it, but I don't need $500 worth of improvement for my purposes.

 

No comment on the Roland, I've never played one.

 

[Jazzmammal]

I am a huge proponent of the PC3. I got mine a little over a year ago as a B stock close out. Since the new K series is out the original PC3's are now available used here in LA for around a grand or so. Great buy if it's a good one. Here's two vids for you to check out:

 

 

This first one demos how Kurz created specific patches to match certain classic songs or bands keyboard sounds. Very cool. Example, I did a gig where they called Superstition and I hadn't done that since I picked up my PC3. I remembered seeing a clav patch somewhere about that so I just hit the Clavier category button and the first one is RealSupasticious. I had no time to test it or anything, the drummer was starting the song so I hit that patch and hoped for the best. Best indeed. If it had been some weird special effect clav I would have been screwed but it's a killer clav right off the record and the sax player turned to me with a big thumbs up. It sounded just perfect. In the Classic Keys bank there's another one called Headhunters WAH. Guess what, that's right off Herbies Headhunters album. This beast is full of patches like that.

 

And this next vid is really amazing, a direct comparison of the KB3 to a real B3 and Leslie:

 

 

Don't worry about the language, the sound speaks for itself. This is a fairly long vid and the guys really go into different B3 sounds. Even I was impressed, I hauled a real B3 for over 25 years.

 

The thing about the PC3 76 that fooled me when I first got it is it's not just one B3 with a leslie sim. I thought it would be similar to my Roland V Combo, a set of drawbars, a leslie sim with some amp modeling effects and that's it. Not so. The Kurz has different B3/leslie combinations in it including different tonewheel sets, amps, 122 and 147 leslies, modded organs and modded leslies. It's mind boggling all the choices you have so if you find one to test you really have to dig in and try all the different presets and the presets are just a start. There's guys on this forum who are regulars on the Sonikmatters forum and they go into great detail over there on how to set up the PC3 for organ. It's very deep.

 

In a perfect world, money is no object, I have roadies to set everything up, I would have a SK1 or Mojo or even a KeyB plus a PC3 and I'd be in heaven. In the real world the Kurz by itself does everything I need.

 

Bob

[Steveaudio]

how much better would an XK-1 or CX3 (my two main contenders) be than the PC3 as far as organ?

 

I own a PC3, & had an XK-1 for a short while. There's no comparison IMO--if your sole focus is organ, pick the XK-1--they're not even from the same planet--for organ. OR: a Nord Electro 2 or 3 perhaps, I'd consider those, if you want organ plus EP's, etc. I really liked the organ sounds on my NE2.

 

(I'm leaving out all of the other superb PC3 sounds--EP's, AP's, strings, synth pads, etc, & just focusing on organ, which to me is not it's main strength).....maybe think: is your sole focus on organ? Or: do you want a fabulous all around keyboard which also does organ....

 

 

[Delaware Dave]

The difference between the LE's leslie sim and the PC3's Big Leslie is.........BIG )

 

Old leslie (LE equivalent) fast speed heard at 6:30 in the video:

 

New Leslie:

[Stokely]

maybe think: is your sole focus on organ? Or: do you want a fabulous all around keyboard which also does organ....

 

The answer is "yes"

 

While I don't play in a setting where I'd stand out (we have 2 guitarists! I may never be heard at all lol! j/k they are very good at leaving space) I do play a lot of organ...blues and rock mostly.

 

Meaning that yes I would like to have an organ, but having a do-everything board similar (but better) than my Motif for smaller gigs and practice would be ideal. I think the other sam ash in town has an xk1 so I'll go there tomorrow and check one out. I really liked the xk3c when I tried one. It may come down to which board has the best deal first, I've already seen some good ones for both PC3s and clonewheels since I've been looking. Right before xmas may not be the best time though!

 

 

[Jazzmammal]

I'm definitely not going to get into a which B3 clone sounds best thing. There's all kinds of opinions out there. If you're going to sit in your room with headphones or your studio setup and just solo something they'll all have flaws. I'll just say this. Every real B3 is different, every Leslie is different. When I was touring with mine, I was lucky enough to get a studio call for some organ and they had their own B3. To me it sucked. The scanner C/V settings sucked, the overall sound was too clean, etc. I wish I brought mine but it was not my call, I was just hired to come in and lay down some licks. In actual fact theirs was probably fine to most players, I was just used to my own personal set up, that all.

 

Most players have a certain favorite B3 sound in mind either from an old one they used to have or certain records or whatever. The thing is back in the day players loved to mess with them just like guitarists mess with their stuff. Mine had solid state rectifiers in the preamp, I had a JBL 15" in the Leslie and for a few years I ran it through a pair of tube Fender Dual Showman amps. Of course my set up sounded different from stock.

 

I can't tell someone their taste is bad, as far as the PC3 is concerned if they only tried one out maybe by sitting in on a gig or in a store. If they're never really spent time going into the menus and setting it up for B3 then they don't really know what it's capable of. I've said it before here, on several gigs this last year working with some really good pro's, I've never had so many compliments on my organ sound. I've asked them what the other guys used and it's the usual clones, CX3's Hammonds, Rolands etc. I'll admit some of those complements are me because I know B3 techniques and how to play them. I'm certainly not the best guy out there (who is? more opinions...) but I get the job done. A good pianist who's not a B3 guy won't get it exactly right, decent usually but not right to a real B3 player. To sound like a real B3 you have to know the right drawbar setting for a given situation, how to work the expression pedal, the percussion, the leslie all of that in real time. A good player is changing up all those things during any one song. A pianist just grabs one sound and that's it. He won't sound like he's playing a B3 and whatever keyboard he's playing won't sound like a B3 either. Mine will.

 

Like anything else, check things out and get what's best for you.

 

Bob

[keyoctave]

In talking organ sounds only:

 

I use the PC3 with an SK-1 plus vent. I sold my XK-1 to help purchase the SK-1. Though the organ tone is quite good on the XK, I found the sim and overdrive to be sorta lacking. Playing it through the Vent really made it shine. I have never found the PC3 organs to be very inspiring. Yes, the sounds are better than a lot of romplers, but it really takes a lot of programming to make them sound acceptable (to me at least). If you are willing to do this, then you may find them acceptable to you. My feeling is if you are going to focus on playing lots of organ, I would invest in something that gives you a more organ-centric experience.

[Stokely]

Thanks guys. I feel like I can't go too far wrong with the PC3 and/or any of the clonewheels mentioned. I don't mind diving in and tweaking, and of course there are a lot of settings that other players have posted as hints. I recall a discussion about the xk3 where folks were talking about the various tonewheel settings for their own hammonds; that was fascinating. I've chased after analog synth sounds in that manner but this is new to me.

[AnotherScott]

Since you don't like the springiness of the Nord Electro keybed, I think you won't like the 76-key PC3 either, which is springy, and actually worse for organ than the Electro because the non-waterfall keys have harder edges. It may get you buy for now if you intend to add a clonewheel anyway, but it is at least something to be aware of. I would go with the 88, which at least has the virtue of being better for piano, if you can deal with the heft of the thing. (And the 76 is no lightweight either.) For organ, my favorites is the PC361 (or the PC3K6 replacement, but that will be pricey). That gives you the best organ keys on a Kurz, 9 sliders for drawbars and additional hard button controls, the most flexible Leslie implementation, and it's the most luggable at just a bit over 30 lbs.

[dta3923]

Stokely,

 

I'm not clear if your what your looking for, is it dedicated clone or an all-in-one keyboard?

 

Another consideration might be upgrading your motif's organ sounds (if its possible):

See link:

http://ksounds.com/html/organimation.html

Someone shared this link with me and I'm considering it as a bandaid for my rig situation until I decide on a Kronos or SK-1/SK-2.

 

One thing about the Kronos is you could route it through a ventilator thru on of the multiple audio outs on the Kronos.

See this link:

http://thekronosblog.blogspot.com/

 

I think another strong contender is the Roland VR700 combo. It's not "100%" organ, but it has a decent sound and other great sounds as well.

 

There are many great demos on youtube for all of these keyboards that explain the differences and abilities.

 

I'm leaning towards an SK right now.

 

Good luck on your quest.

 

This group is a great resource!

 

[AnotherScott]

Another consideration might be upgrading your motif's organ sounds (if its possible):

See link:

http://ksounds.com/html/organimation.html

 

Organimation does not work on the original Motif that the OP has. It requires later models.

[dta3923]

Thanks Scott. I wasn't sure of his model or year.

[NewImprov]

I have an XK-1, a Kurz SP4-7 and a Ventilator. I realize that the KB-3 patches on the SP4 are not quite the same as those on the PC3, but, the XK-1 sounds way better, even without the Vent, and with the Vent, it blows the Kurz completely out of the running. Imho, of course. I've seen XK-1's going for the $700-$800 range, you could possibly find one and a Vent in your price range.

[Stokely]

As everyone is doubtlessly hanging on the outcome... went round and round and ended up purchasing a pc361 from guitar center. A little more than one on ebay but I have until jan 31 to return it locally for any reason. I doubt I will but it's a nice safe feeling!

 

I figured it's an organ upgrade and does everything else as well so made the most practical sense to do first. I have an extra SKB case that fits it so that was a nice plus. On the minus side I'll have to continue to play piano on a synth keybed for now, unless I want to haul and midi up my weighted controller. I'm used to it and it's all rock piano so it's not a killer.

 

Down the road I could well look at a dedicated organ once I sell the Motif and Virus, but first I'll try for the best sound I can from the Kurz.