Preset volumes on stage

[blong5150]

I've got 2 gigs under my belt with this band. I thought I was doing the sound guys a favor when setting the volumes between presets. Example: The keyboard in "Jump" should be louder than backup organ on the next song so when I saved the preset, I took that into consideration. However, both sounds guys told me that they felt like they were chasing my volumes all night and asked that I set everything exactly the same.

Any thoughts on this?

[Tusker]

 

Most sound guys are frustrated drummers or frustrated guitar players. Frustrated drummers know two volume settings: loud and very loud. Frustrated guitar players know three volume settings: lead, rhythm and ... keyboard.

 

 

 

Either way, preset it and forget it works as a strategy but only if everyone is implementing it in a disciplined manner. If the band's dynamics are all over the map, be prepared to ride your faders.

[CEB]

You should play dynamically. The sound guys job should not be THAT hard if the band plays it right. There is really insufficient information here to know what happened. It could be you were over compensating your level adjustments. ( your volume swings were too much ) .... or your sound guys really suck. Or some answer that falls in between. You could try measuring your db output on your rig at home to get an idea of what you are +/- db swings you are sending.

 

But yes your loud parts should be louder than quiet parts. Soundmen don't replace dynamics.

[Skinny]

Over the last 5 years of playing in my band, I've spent lots of time attempting to get patches leveled out.

 

In my experience, it's not always just volume or dB, but how certain sounds cut.

 

I have some patches that sound too loud to me in my in-ears, but sound more even out front. My Yamaha CP33 (no longer have it) sounded too quiet in my in-ears, but out front, it cut nicely. Whatever Hammond emulation I happen to be using (I bounce between VB3 and my trusty NE2) usually sounds too loud in my in-ears, but out front, it blends nicely.

 

Trial and error. Whenever I program a new setup or Combi, the first couple gigs are usually a test, and I'll spend time reprogramming either that night, or later in the week before the next show.

 

For 99.9% of shows, we run our own sound from stage, btw.

 

One of the last times someone else ran sound (at a casino), the tech came up to me after the show and complimented me in that he hardly had to mess with the faders at all.

[Tonysounds]

This is typical. Sound guys want everything the same, but it just isnt that easy. I try to normalize everything as much as possible, and leave it to my playing to get dynamics. But I do let them know that, especially in a cover band with 2 guitars that sometimes they dont hear me for a reason: Im letting things breathe, and other times, the keys need to be more upfront. And in my case, the guitarists in the band arent very good about normalizing their own sounds, so Jump tends to need to be louder than say Every Rose Has Its Thorn. (Yes, I know all of you out there are saying wow, Tony gets to play the coolest stuff!) So I will let the sound guys have my lowest level, and then my highest levels during soundcheck. The good guys get it: they usually hear whats happening, and instead of chasing me, tend to just boost me (hopefully) when needed, but when they get the JUMP synth, theyre not going WTF!!!!.

 

And its an endless process.

 

 

[Skinny]

so Jump tends to need to be louder than say Every Rose Has Its Thorn. (Yes, I know all of you out there are saying wow, Tony gets to play the coolest stuff!)

What, no "Don't Stop Believin" ????

[Tonysounds]

Oh trust, me there's Dont Stop The Heavin' Jesse's Brown Eyed Girl in the Summer of 69s, cuz Everybody's Working for the Weekend.

 

It's just right in the middle of the keyboard level arc.

[kanker.]

Soundmen don't replace dynamics.

They just compress them to death....

[CEB]

That is true they will start putting compressors on your ****.

[JeffLearman]

Any sound man who tells you to play at the same level all night is a moron. And saying that your presets should all be the same is the same as saying that. It's idiotic.

 

BUT the soundman may still have a point: your swings might be too wide. While you do need to be louder for Jump, keep in mind that when you start, you're the only instrument. You shouldn't be playing at the same level as when the whole band has kicked in, or it will sound way too loud. Don't expect your presets to do all the work of keeping your levels right. (Van Halen might use the same level on keyboards for the whole song. "Way too loud" is their goal, but it shouldn't be yours.)

 

The best case is to have a good enough monitor setup so that if you keep your levels sounding right to you on stage, it'll be close enough that FOH can usually leave your channels alone. If you're relying on the venue's monitors for your keys, this probably won't happen unless you're playing pretty serious venues.

 

The kind of sound guys I tend to run into are the ones who only know how to turn keyboards down, and never back up. (... and not just for my gigs, but for other bands -- so I know it's not just my playing they hate!) If only they'd learn that trick for guitars!

[J. Dan]

Setting your relative volumes in preset works well as long as conditions are fairly controlled. We ran most everything direct and used IEM's, so things were very consitent. So much so, that when we played venues with digital boards, they just recalled the "that 80s band" preset and did no further sound check. Most sound guys were very happy with my levels and said they hardly had to touch the fader. But it requires:

 

1) everything else to be equally consitent

2) keyboard channel gain set on your loudest patch of the night

3) Sound guy familiar enough with the song to know how it should sound.

[jeff7b9]

I find that the less control the sound guy has the better. Most of them are deaf anyway.

 

I use a volume pedal all night, (not just on organs) if it needs to be louder, i make it louder or pull it back if it needs to chill. Other band members are NEVER going to be as exact as your patch to patch setting, even the amount of people in the crowd and how much noise they are making affect volume, it would be nice to just set it and forget it, but I don't think it often works out that way in the real world.

 

I also try to "hear the room" so I know if I'm too loud, but that still doesn't prevent a sound guy from doing more harm than good. A friend in the crowd can be a huge help, if you get someone that can give you an A-ok, or point to the guitar and let you know he is WAY TOO LOUD, yeah, i chose guitar for a reason.

[CEB]

I like our sound guys. We have had some bad ones but we fired them!

[joeljjison]

You need to trust your sound guys people... they're not some obstacle to overcome, they're supposed to be allies. You both want the same thing, good sound and to go home. Its our job to play music and their job to do the sound. Even if they lack competence its not constructive to undermine them... can you imagine the uproar if engineers decided to force themselves onto keyboards when people sucked?

 

Anyway back to topic, having the same level all night will not work unless all your songs have exactly the same dynamic throughout. Initially setting all your volumes to the same is a good start. Next stage is to run through a rehearsal like this, and work out how you need to adjust patches to cut through in louder sections and to sit better in the quiet bits. Don't set your patches based on you hearing yourself. Based on how they should sound if it was a recording.

 

It seems obvious but not all sounds behave the same either... and certainly with your example of jump, the patch for jump would cut through really well, and has you playing more notes at once on the keys... so actually it might have made sense to set it to a lower volume than the organ.

 

Other than that, we need to have our own monitors, and our own way to control the level in them without changing what we send to FOH. Once you patches are done, trust them and trust your engineers until you get advice that you may have screwed up.

 

I think a lot of people make a mistake trying to get involved with how it sounds out front. That is not our job.

 

If the sound guy can't get a good sound out front without your help or an audience members help, telling them 'turn this up, turn that up' is going to be useless, since they clearly believe that the way it already sounds is correct. Call a spade a spade!!! Good sound on stage is what we ask for, and if the sound is shit out front, its not your fault, you know who not to use next time, or if its not their fault, where not to play.

[allan_evett]

This is typical.  Sound guys want everything the same, but it just isnt that easy.  I try to normalize everything as much as possible, and leave it to my playing to get dynamics....  And in my case, the guitarists in the band arent very good about normalizing their own sounds

....

 

 

In my experience it's rare that a guitarist has normalized sounds.  I typically have to ride my stage levels all night.  I usually run a separate mix and always have a separate stage level; keeps the engineers happy, unless there is bleed-through from my stage volume due to trying to hear myself over an inconsistent guitar level....

 

 

 

Setting your relative volumes in preset works well as long as conditions are fairly controlled....  But it requires:

 

1) everything else to be equally consitent

2) keyboard channel gain set on your loudest patch of the night

....

 

"2)" does help.  During soundcheck a lot of engineers have asked for a 'normal' playing volume, a 'solo' volume, then my 'loudest patch'.

"1)" can work, but as noted above most guitarists don't do a very good job 

keeping their various tones within a similar level range.  I've played with only a handful of acts that worked hard - both individually and as a group -  at keeping things consistent.

 

 

 

....

 

I think a lot of people make a mistake trying to get involved with how it sounds out front. That is not our job. 

 

....

 

Ah, the stage based, FOH expert; I know a couple very well.  This was said to me after a set, earlier this year: "Your keyboards must be too loud, sometimes I can hear them out front". 

 

[MonksDream]

I think a lot of people make a mistake trying to get involved with how it sounds out front. That is not our job.

To quote The Fonz: "Exact-a-mundo!"

[CEB]

I'm not sure of the context of that statement. If the sound contractor is hired by us then yes we are involved with quality of our hired help. If it is a festival job or some sort of club house system then no.

[Rockhouse]

I keep an open patch cable lined in at all times and step on it whenever the soundguy takes a sip of beer.

 

Poor guy still has not caught on.

 

Sip

BZZZT

-silence-

 

Repeat as needed.

[Tonysounds]

That is awesome!

[Michelle ggurl]

Good points here. The comment about your volume levels possibly being set at too great a dynamic range is a possibility ... But that's a judgment call based on what? Comparison of the range you think you need while setting up patches on your own at home, and he realities of what the sound guy hears out front on a gig. Also, make sure you are hearing yourself really well on stage.

 

I've had some weird gigs regardig sound (speaking of previous bands where I played mulitple keyboards and layers -- I'm sure many of you are aware that these days I play mostly acoustic piano sound only, but rest assured that's not what I'm referring to here). One place we played, I was in heaven. The sound was perfect onstage, and people in the audience said they could hear everything great. Two months later we play a room that supposedly is one of the premier live-music venues in our area, and mid-set the sound guy comes up and tells me to turn down one of my keyboards, because it's screamingly loud. I took a couple moments to check all my levels within my control across the signal chain ... and everything was set to default or very close to it. I never did find out what the hell went wrong there, but that was such a different experience than the perfect sound at the OUTDOOR gig weeks before!

 

Maybe try to narrow the dynamic range of your patches a little bit? You shouldn't have to be relying on the sound guy to control all dynamics, though. That is your domain.

[Tusker]

I keep an open patch cable lined in at all times and step on it whenever the soundguy takes a sip of beer.

 

Excellent.

 

I have a square wave patch which yields 60 cycle hum when you play the B two octaves below middle C. Reserved for a certain kind of sound guy.

[mate stubb]

Back to the original post - you cannot expect to get your preset levels correct the first or even second time. Ya gotta iterate a bit.

[JeffLearman]

Mate is right.

 

Listen to sound guys when they say they have to adjust your levels too much (expecially if you get the same message from more than one). But ignore them when they say something ignorant like "set all your patches to the same volume."

 

Heed the important signal, but ignore the bad advice.

 

And as I said above, don't expect your patch volume levels to do the whole job. I'm always fine-tuning my volume to match what the rest of the band is doing. We don't play every song the same every time. For examples, crescendos can vary a lot depending on the situation dynamics (position in the set, which set, what dancers are doing, etc.)

 

Making it sound right, where you are, is the most you can possibly do. If you do a good job of that, it should make FOH's job easier too. It's his job to make the mix work in the room, not yours, but it's your job to make his job as easy as possible. It's not FOH's job to do your dynamics.

 

In big time acts, performers and the MD work closely with the sound team so that everyone knows ahead of time who's doing what for each part of a song. In that case, they may well be doing some of your dynamics for you. (I've watched sound crews doing this: it's impressive, and their charts are interesting!) That's not feasible unless the sound team practices with the band, which isn't the case for most of us. But even then, the keyboardist doesn't just "set all the patches to the same level." They do what makes sense, which is what you're trying to do but just haven't quite hit the mark yet.

[MonksDream]

Making it sound right, where you are, is the most you can possibly do. If you do a good job of that, it should make FOH's job easier too. It's his job to make the mix work in the room, not yours, but it's your job to make his job as easy as possible. It's not FOH's job to do your dynamics.

Well said, Jeff!