Korg RH3 issue

[Gary75]

What the hell is going on with Korg?

 

I have had a note mute problem on my SV1, to be honest I initially thought it was just a user issue, and then I stopped using it for a while. Now I have gone back to it and it's happening again. So after some research I found out there are many other people experiencing the same problem. It's also in the Kronos keyboards too. Seems to be an issue with bounce back on the hammers.

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRaOfxDrIgg

 

I just wished I'd played it more under warranty and returned it. Anyway, that's by the by, the point is, where do Korg get off installing dodgy keybeds. They have admitted their is a problem. Surely under the Trade Descriptions Act, the goods are not fit for purpose?

 

 

[Synthoid]

There's a long thread about this issue (with the Kronos) at Korgforums.com. It's a real disappointment, considering the "game-changing" aspects the Kronos would otherwise have.

 

I played the SV1 awhile back but didn't notice this problem. Still waiting for a Kronos to show up around here though.

 

 

 

[RABid]

People here on the forums have been asking for a 7x key hammer action workstation for years. We finally get one with great sounds and ...

[marino]

People here on the forums have been asking for a 7x key hammer action workstation for years. We finally get one with great sounds and ...

 

Exactly. I played a Kronos 73 in the store last week, and the chocked notes were everywhere. Let's hope Korg would do the right thing and fix the problem soon.

[Mitch Towne]

After reading the pages and pages dedicated to this issue in the Korg forums, I went to a local dealer and tested a Kronos 88 that they had just taken out of the box that morning. I replicated the cutoff notes problem within 30 seconds of playing. Really disappointing. It is definitely not an isolated problem.

[Synthoid]

Another thread was started with this topic. Sure hope this gets resolved soon.

[J. Dan]

Glad I decided on th 61.

[Bill W]

Glad I decided on th 61.

 

Me too, but it's not without its problems. Mine has stopped producing sound and frozen at 2 different gigs.

[Al Coda]

What the hell is going on with Korg?

 

I have had a note mute problem on my SV1, to be honest I initially thought it was just a user issue, and then I stopped using it for a while. Now I have gone back to it and it's happening again. So after some research I found out there are many other people experiencing the same problem. It's also in the Kronos keyboards too. Seems to be an issue with bounce back on the hammers.

 

 

I just wished I'd played it more under warranty and returned it. Anyway, that's by the by, the point is, where do Korg get off installing dodgy keybeds. They have admitted their is a problem. Surely under the Trade Descriptions Act, the goods are not fit for purpose?

 

 

I doubt this is a keybed (RH3) issue because it also exists w/ the 61 keys version and because it doesn´t happen with exactly the same keys in a sequence playing a number of notes up and down.

It´s sometimes one of the same keys introducing this and sometimes a key working correctly in one of the turnarounds and introducing the issue in a follow up turnaround.

 

Keybed matrix electronics (or algorithms) are often (or always ?) organized in groups of X keys per group counting the groups from lowest to highest key across the keyboard.

A group must not be related to octave key span portions,- it might be 8 keys per group p.ex..

 

If it would be a keybed (-electronics) issue, it normally would only happen within a specific portion across the keyboard.

 

The RH3 keybed exists in other KORG keyboards also which don´t/didn´t introduce this issue.

 

That,- to me, seems to be a polyphony issue and engine related, faulty keyboard matrix components (if these exist in hardware in the Kronos) or something else in that department.

Can be the voice allocation malfunctions already w/ single note lines.

 

It´s weird, it shows chocked notes w/ piano (sample playback) and double triggers w/ organ (modelling),- so something changes by changing the sound-engines too.

 

I´d freak out if a keyboard arrives in my house w/ a issue like that and I just dumped 4K bucks !

 

A.C.

[J. Dan]

I doubt this is a keybed (RH3) issue because it also exists w/ the 61 keys version

 

...

 

The RH3 keybed exists in other KORG keyboards also which don´t/didn´t introduce this issue.

 

...

 

It´s weird, it shows chocked notes w/ piano (sample playback) and double triggers w/ organ (modelling),- so something changes by changing the sound-engines too.

 

It was my understanding that it was only RH3. I have not experienced it on my 61 key Kronos, and somebody else posted on here that it was happening on their SV1.

 

I believe the problem is simply double-triggering. On a piano sound, the second trigger is of low velocity so retriggers at low volume - cutting out the original note. On many keyboards, you can replicate this by hitting a cymbal sound then hitting again very softly, which seems to mute the original one. On the Organ engine, since it is not velocity sensitive, you hear both triggers at full volume. It's probably a de-bouncing filter issue.

[Song80s]

I reviewed the youtubes and can see/hear where some K73/88 have that defect.

 

I got my K88 on 8/25. Play it about an hour a day. No issues.

 

If mine had that defect, I would have definitely noticed it and taken action.

 

So far, so good with mine.

[RABid]

One thing that suggests a hardware problem instead of software is that not all units have the problem. The software should be consistent. Manufacturing variances and assembly can affect the hardware. However, they may be able to do a software update that will watch for double triggered notes in which the second is much softer than the first and filter that second note.

[marino]

I doubt this is a keybed (RH3) issue because it also exists w/ the 61 keys version

Al, if you read the long thread on KorgForums (plus the corresponding thread on the Italian synth forum, where the problem was first exposed), and you watch the various videos, you'll see that the problem resides in a double-bouncing of an element of the RH3 action, which causes the key to 'choke' the note right after the attack, and transmit another MIDI note at a very low velocity. Several users have noticed that it happens even when you control another instrument or module via MIDI. It also disappears when driving the Kronos via MIDI from another keyboard. To my knowledge, it doesn't happen with the 61, which has a different action. I also spent a few hours with a 61, and while I wasn't crazy for its action/response, I never noticed any chocked notes, while I was able to recognize it on the 73 within a minute of playing a piano patch.

And it definitely isn't a polyphony/allocation issue, as it often happens when playing one or two notes at a time with no pedal.

 

To me, it sounds/looks like an hardware issue - a flaw in either design, calibration or choice of materials/parts.

Maybe it could be solved or attenuated by some software update which looks at this behavior and filters the output, but I have doubts.

I had considered a Kronos 73 in the (not immediate) future, but now - as many others, I guess - I'll wait and see what Korg comes up with.

 

 

 

 

[TechEverlasting]

What the hell is so difficult about making a working keybed? It's not like this is a revolutionary new concept.

 

I put up with years of this sort of crap with the old Kurzweil K2s. I know too well what fun it is to have an expensive, state-of-the-art instrument that's useless due to bad keys. (To be fair, that problem was entirely due to horrible quality control and design on the part of Fatar. The new keybeds in the PC3K8s have been flawless.)

 

I hope Korg quickly remedies this problem and fixes all affected units regardless of warranty status. If not some sort of class action should be contemplated.

[Song80s]

Class action sounds like a poor idea. Since there are about 50 reported instances , globally.

 

Might help some poor law firm, though.

[Dana.]

Class action?

 

This seems to me to be as easy as Korg replacing all the faulty Kronoses (Kroni?) or issuing refunds. What's the big deal? :idk

[allan_evett]

Class action?

 

This seems to me to be as easy as Korg replacing all the faulty Kronoses (Kroni?) or issuing refunds. What's the big deal? :idk

 

Agree! I've read through the thread on the Korg Forum, and it appears to be a problem affecting only a small percentage of Kronos 88's / 73's. And Korg is addressing the issue: it seems that the dealer/distribution network is addressing the problem with either refunds, credits, or replacement - except for the couple of 'all sales final' dealers (apparently the recourse there is to take the warranty repair route )

 

I haven't experienced the 'chocked' note problem with my K88. I've played it on about a dozen gigs with no evidence of that issue. Yesterday I played some exaggerated, heavy handed stuff on it - trying to get it to 'chock'; nada, didn't happen.

 

Would be a shame if this problem put players 'off' of the Kronos, as it's quite the 'Swiss Army Knife' and is a strong instrument for many applications. OTOH, I'd have been PO'd to have to deal with this problem, or the one with the improperly attached dial (that was resolved well before my unit came into the country). I would think that each instrument would be thoroughly QC tested prior to shipping - including a rigorous keybed workout... But in the current 'rush to market' climate, etc., I have to wonder.

[mate stubb]

Class action?

 

This seems to me to be as easy as Korg replacing all the faulty Kronoses (Kroni?) or issuing refunds. What's the big deal? :idk

 

Maybe they don't have a fix for it yet.

[Dana.]

Class action?

 

This seems to me to be as easy as Korg replacing all the faulty Kronoses (Kroni?) or issuing refunds. What's the big deal? :idk

 

Maybe they don't have a fix for it yet.

How about you call Korg, ask them how they're dealing with it, and report back to us.

[mate stubb]

Don't care.

[Dana.]

Don't care.

Then ask yourself: why am I posting in this thread?

[Sven Golly]

Wow... I think some folks around this place must have a stockpile of torches and pitchforks, just in case. Class action lawsuit?

 

 

[JpScoey]

I haven't experienced the 'chocked' note problem with my K88.

I've played it on about a dozen gigs with no evidence of that issue.

Yesterday I played some exaggerated, heavy handed stuff on it - trying to get it to 'chock';

nada, didn't happen.

As I understand it Allan, the problem does NOT occur when playing "heavy handed" -

 

it only happens when playing using a very soft touch - & apparently especially on a 'run', ie: a scale.

 

The way you described is more likely to have that effect on an acoustic piano.

 

 

PS: I've had my M50-88 nearly 3 years now (also RH3 keybed) & had no problems with this, or any other, issue.

[Gary75]

That's exactly right John, certainly on my SV-1. I hope they offer a fix for every faulty action otherwise it's going to create a lot of stink if they don't.

[Throbert]

Several users have noticed that it happens even when you control another instrument or module via MIDI. It also disappears when driving the Kronos via MIDI from another keyboard.

 

 

Sounds like an Ecoder/decoder problem.

[stillplaying]

Wow... I think some folks around this place must have a stockpile of torches and pitchforks, just in case. Class action lawsuit?

 

 

Torch - in gig bag (always)

 

Pitchfork - A 440Hz (it's the Folk scene)

 

Class action - always been too busy packing up gear to get any after gig action, classy or not.

[therealvicz]

If you are in the UK then the dealer you bought it from - not Korg - has to arrange a repair or replace it under the sale of goods act. This right is not time limited, beyond what is 'reasonable'. No-one would expect a keyboard to fail after only a couple of years so be firm with the dealer, they will probably try to duck and dive. If you bought it on a credit card then the cc company are jointly liable so if necessary it is a good idea to contact them, as they may well choose to lean on the dealer rather than cough up themselves. If all else fails there is always the small claims court, its easy and cheap enough to use. 'Class action' in US terms does not currently exist in UK law.

[Dana.]

Class action - always been too busy packing up gear to get any after gig action, classy or not.

Then why did you join a band?

[stillplaying]

Class action - always been too busy packing up gear to get any after gig action, classy or not.

Then why did you join a band?

 

LOL

[allan_evett]

I haven't experienced the 'chocked' note problem with my K88.

I've played it on about a dozen gigs with no evidence of that issue.

Yesterday I played some exaggerated, heavy handed stuff on it - trying to get it to 'chock';

nada, didn't happen.

As I understand it Allan, the problem does NOT occur when playing "heavy handed" -

 

it only happens when playing using a very soft touch - & apparently especially on a 'run', ie: a scale.

 

The way you described is more likely to have that effect on an acoustic piano.

 

 

PS: I've had my M50-88 nearly 3 years now (also RH3 keybed) & had no problems with this, or any other, issue.

 

Thanks for clarifying that, John. I should've mentioned that so far I hadn't noticed the problem occurring with a light or medium touch either.

As previously noted the problem has occurred with both the Kronos internal sounds, and sounds triggered via MIDI. In the interest of thoroughly checking things out - as most of my use of the keyboard has been in live, band settings - I tried a couple of different approaches, yesterday: triggering the K88's sounds remotely (using another 88; also a dense, very dynamic MIDI recording in Logic), playing software instruments and modules with the K88, and finally giving the instrument a thorough workout from its' own keybed. Conclusions: this unit triggers other instruments fine via MIDI, with no stuttered/chocked notes; it plays fine from its' own keybed; triggering this K88 via a remote, similarly weighted keybed does not produce a noticeable difference in sound, nor any chocked notes (same with the sequence playback).