Update: Gibson Guitar Raid

[gryphon]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/12/us-guitar-idUSTRE79B7PT20111012

 

The U.S. Justice Department declined on Wednesday to comment on the case but provided information on the Lacey Act, which aims to curb trafficking in wildlife, fish and plant products, including illegally obtained timber.

 

"By prohibiting trafficking in wood illegally harvested overseas, the Lacey Act prohibits companies from undercutting law-abiding U.S. wood products companies ... by trading in artificially inexpensive raw materials that have been illegally harvested from foreign forests," Justice and Interior department officials wrote in a letter.

 

Note: bogus US Justice Dept. claim

 

Gibson Guitar uses a small fraction of the world's tropical hardwoods, compared to that used for furniture and flooring.

[Strategery]

Now this is the kicker...and not sure if anyone has brought this up yet.

 

The U.S. gov't stated to Gibson...that if they allowed India to do their wood processing...that the charges would be dropped.

This means...jobs AWAY from America to India.

 

Does all this stink to high heaven or is it just me?

[LeftyBlues]

I seem to recall reading that Gibson gave money to the Independant party, not the Big Two so maybe politics plays a big part. Hmmm. Also seems I recall the First Lady gave a Gibby to some diplomat as a gift....overseas. So she's guilty as well. Jess sayin' is all.

[Caevan O’Shite]

The tail is wagging the dog.

[Fumblyfingers]

Does all this stink to high heaven or is it just me?

 

My sewer backed up recently.......smelled much nicer than this!

 

Also seems I recall the First Lady gave a Gibby to some diplomat as a gift....overseas. So she's guilty as well

 

Yes Barry's wife gave the French Prez Nick Sarcozy's wife, Carla Bruni, a Gibson Hummingbird. Somewhat a waste of a fine Bozeman, Montana made instrument although she is a singer.

 

Why can't we have a First Lady that looks like that? Dayumm!!! Reminds me of Jackie Kennedy.

[lumenguitars-ben]

Now this is the kicker...and not sure if anyone has brought this up yet.

 

The U.S. gov't stated to Gibson...that if they allowed India to do their wood processing...that the charges would be dropped.

This means...jobs AWAY from America to India.

 

Does all this stink to high heaven or is it just me?

 

You're absolutely right. People need to work. Especially now in this countries current state.

 

Here's another way to look at it...Sourcing products from overseas creates jobs on both ends. I see this with another business I help operate. By going overseas for products, we're able to lower the cost of the products. Thus more people here can afford them. We then need to hire more people here to help with increased phone traffic and increase volume moving out the door.

 

Helping to create a global economy is a wonderful thing.

[Strategery]

Sorry, I don't see it that way.

 

Americans, due to their unique situation of hard earned freedom, over the years have developed their own way of doing things with a standard of quality...second to none.

 

We also need to GET OUT of this contstant "knot tying" together of a so called...world economy.

We don't need it because we do not need to lower our standards for the sake of a wolrd economy.

 

What we do need to do...is to get rid of this infernal "over regulating" which causes America to be unable to be competative.

I mean, why outsource it...we can do it ourself.

And if the rest of the world likes the way we do things, let THEM adopt OUR WAY instead of America having to become part of a world economy.

 

We can all still be separate nations...and still do business together without all the gov't and international blackmale.

 

Also, why is it that ONLY Gibson is being treated like this?

Isn't wood....wood?

Aren't the other companies using the very same wood?

 

Randy

[Fumblyfingers]

......the gov't and international blackmale.

 

Did you mean blackMAIL Randy?

 

But of course you are absolutely correct. The USA does not need to lower it's standards to try fit in with 3rd world, under developed countries. The best thing for those countries is to aspire to reach our level. If they shoot for that, even if they fall short it will be a much better place for them.

 

This whole deal of the many having to suffer because of the few, the smart having to be held back because of the unsmart, the talented having to be kept down because of the not so talented....etc etc is such BS and is there because of this stupid PC agenda.

 

Life is full of hard knocks, difficulties, downright lousy breaks. Learning how to identify these situations and roll with the punches when they come......is a much better thing than assuming somebody is gonna come massage your feelings and it will all go away.

 

What is wrong with people today? Seriously.

[Griffinator]

......the gov't and international blackmale.

Did you mean blackMAIL Randy?

 

No, he meant international black male, as in....

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/i/tim//2010/06/30/old_spice_guy_630.jpg

[Fumblyfingers]

No, he meant international black male, as in....

http://www.cbsnews.com/i/tim//2010/06/30/old_spice_guy_630.jpg

 

LOL......... Here's an international black male....from Persia.

 

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d42/Gypsyfingers/pgdexter046.jpg

 

 

[Winston Psmith]

One good look at what's happening in the Euro zone should tell you what the "World Economy" is coming to - no, thanks. I also don't see any sense in the argument that Gibson could avoid legal hassles by having the woods processed in India - if it's unlawful to import these hardwoods, why should it matter where they're processed? It's absurd, if not actually obscene.

[Griffinator]

One good look at what's happening in the Euro zone should tell you what the "World Economy" is coming to - no, thanks. I also don't see any sense in the argument that Gibson could avoid legal hassles by having the woods processed in India - if it's unlawful to import these hardwoods, why should it matter where they're processed? It's absurd, if not actually obscene.

 

It's unlawful to import "raw, unfinished" hardwoods. Basically, if they turned the fretboard "blanks" into at least semi-finished fretboards before they shipped them over here, supposedly the law wouldn't apply.

 

What I want to know is how exactly did this act get very quietly updated back in '08 without so much as a sniffle? Prior to 2008, Lacey didn't even deal with wood - it was all about exotic birds.

 

If I were a tinfoil hat kind of guy, I'd say Gibson's donating to independents ruffled feathers on both sides of the aisle - hence the setup under a Republican administration (amending Lacey) and the knockdown under a Democratic administration (interpreting fretboard blanks as unfinished wood, but only in Gibson's shop, not everyone else's...)

[Guitarzan]

why are we discussing Gibson as if it is a poor blind girl with one leg? it is a business and i would bet they would use every trick in the book to get maximum profit.

just because we love guitars does not mean the companies that make them are holy or something.

they are made in the USA out of components that come from a variety of places.

as far as i see it they imported wood that was not the spec it was listed as.

 

as far as the North American way being better than a global economy..ha..ha..

 

there are plenty of "American" companies that rake in cash for a few elite individuals while the manufacturing is done overseas. this wasn't imposed on them, they did it for maximum profit baby. blame it on greed nothing else.

 

wasn't this all about 10mm rosewood being imported as 6mm thick?

[Guitarzan]

an a society that has companies and special interest groups handing money to political parties is like buying a lottery ticket. wonder what special treats they would get if they bought the winning ticket?

 

me me me me

the North American way.

[Dannyalcatraz]

What I want to know is how exactly did this act get very quietly updated back in '08 without so much as a sniffle? Prior to 2008, Lacey didn't even deal with wood - it was all about exotic birds.

 

Actually just looked it up: the amendment that got the Lacey Act to cover plants first popped up in the 1980s (my source covered all the 1980s amendments to the act, and did not specify which amendment produced which change).

 

My personal take on the situation:

 

1) Yes, furniture makers use more wood than the instrument industry by at least an order of magnitude. However, relative size is no excuse: if they did it and got caught, that's on Gibson, not the Feds.

 

2) Other instrument makers may be doing likewise. However, "They're doing it too!" is no excuse: if they did it and got caught, that's on Gibson, not the Feds.

 

3) Given the size of the agency tasked with enforcement of the Lacey Act vs the sheer volume of imports, I doubt they have the time to really play politics and single Gibson out for especially close monitoring based on that alone.

 

 

 

[webe123]

Now this is the kicker...and not sure if anyone has brought this up yet.

 

The U.S. gov't stated to Gibson...that if they allowed India to do their wood processing...that the charges would be dropped.

This means...jobs AWAY from America to India.

 

Does all this stink to high heaven or is it just me?

 

 

Ummmm....as far as I can see...this is HENRY J with ANOTHER SPIN! It show his quotes and little else...this to me is NOT NEWS! Just Gibson propaganda as far as I can tell.

 

I do not see anything official stating where the US Government told Gibson to make the necks in India and all charges would be dropped...would you like to POST A LINK to back up your claim?

 

Because it was not in the article posted about AT ALL! Matter of fact, I have not seen ANYTHING official from the government to back up your claim. Care to tell me where you got this from?

 

The article above was merely a spin of Henry J's...nothing official from the government was announced as far as this article goes.

 

So exactly WHERE did you get this information about the government wanting Gibson to make the necks in India??

 

I call that bogus until I am presented with proof that this is happening!

 

[Winston Psmith]

Thanks, Griffinator & Dannyalcatraz for the clarification on the Lacey Act, although it still seems like selective enforcement to me. I don't so much feel bad for Gibson, as I wonder what's really being accomplished here.

 

BTW, tinfoil is useless, you want some good LEAD foil to block those incoming radio waves . . .

[Dannyalcatraz]

Now this is the kicker...and not sure if anyone has brought this up yet.

 

The U.S. gov't stated to Gibson...that if they allowed India to do their wood processing...that the charges would be dropped.

This means...jobs AWAY from America to India.

 

Does all this stink to high heaven or is it just me?

 

Ummmm....as far as I can see...this is HENRY J with ANOTHER SPIN! It show his quotes and little else...this to me is NOT NEWS! Just Gibson propaganda as far as I can tell.

 

I do not see anything official stating where the US Government told Gibson to make the necks in India and all charges would be dropped...would you like to POST A LINK to back up your claim?

 

Because it was not in the article posted about AT ALL! Matter of fact, I have not seen ANYTHING official from the government to back up your claim. Care to tell me where you got this from?

 

The article above was merely a spin of Henry J's...nothing official from the government was announced as far as this article goes.

 

So exactly WHERE did you get this information about the government wanting Gibson to make the necks in India??

 

I call that bogus until I am presented with proof that this is happening!

I just found similar info in articles from Fox News and the NY Times- arguably on opposite sides of the political spectrum- namely that the neck blanks were imported as "finished parts for musical instruments", which had it been true, would not have been illegal at all.

 

Ditto for blanks 1cm or less thickness.

 

In addition, the NY Times article goes further, stating, "The paperwork with the shipment did not say the wood was going to Gibson Guitar Corporation in Nashville." and was being sent to some kind of general importer/supplier for warehousing. In other words, agents had no way of knowing at the point of seizure that these necks were bound for Gibson.

[Dr. Ellwood]

"as far as I can see...this is HENRY J with ANOTHER SPIN!"

 

Right! and the Gov't would never spin anything to comply with their actions huh?

[Bottom End]

Ultimately, is enforcement of the Lacey Act likely to increase or decrease the cost of doing business, and while it may increase hiring of regulators, will it increase hiring of luthiers?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Ultimately, like most regulations on commerce- import/export tariffs, environmental regs, safety laws, price supports, subsidies, bans- all make things marginally more expensive...at least in the short run.

[Fumblyfingers]

I call that bogus until I am presented with proof that this is happening!

 

Of course you do, wouldn't expect otherwise.

 

How many times in one post are you going to ask people to back up their claims? And when are you going to realize, that before you come barging in here looking for a fight, that people are only expressing opinion? And this is only opinion based on what is seen, read and heard on reports etc. Who the fuck knows if it is 100% on the money?

 

Nobody......and this goes for your claims that people are full of crap also. How do you know they are full of crap.....where is your proof of that? You sound like you have a hard on for Henry and anything he does you would distrust etc. Maybe he is being on the up and up, maybe not.....you don't know and neither do we.

 

Webe123....what's up man? You okay...stressed out maybe? This is what you often do......you either start a post and give people time to hang themselves before you pounce on them.....or you take pot shots in other peoples threads. I mean, maybe I am reading it wrong and if so I apologize.......but the ALL CAPS THING and accusing people of lying (as in another thread) or that they are full of crap. It is just not cool man and I for one am sick of it.

 

Join the conversation, have some fun, impart some wisdom, agree and disagree........but lose the fighting attitude please, friend. There is so much of that BS going on all around us we don't need more of it here.

 

Sorry to be a jackass. Just me, I speak my mind.

 

 

 

 

[webe123]

"as far as I can see...this is HENRY J with ANOTHER SPIN!"

 

Right! and the Gov't would never spin anything to comply with their actions huh?

 

At least they haven't lied about things in the raid that were untrue like Henry J did...SWAT team ring a bell?

[webe123]

How many times in one post are you going to ask people to back up their claims?

 

Until you or others provive some kind of proof to back up what you said. If they or you cannot back up the claims.. then I call it as I see it.

 

And when are you going to realize, that before you come barging in here looking for a fight, that people are only expressing opinion? And this is only opinion based on what is seen, read and heard on reports etc. Who the fuck knows if it is 100% on the money?

 

I am not looking for anything, it seems to be you as the one who is looking for a fight. Look at the post you just put up! I asked for proof of a statement that was made without any, too bad if that does not agree with you. But I think you will agree I have a right to question the claim just like someone has a right to post it.

 

 

Nobody......and this goes for your claims that people are full of crap also. How do you know they are full of crap.....where is your proof of that? You sound like you have a hard on for Henry and anything he does you would distrust etc. Maybe he is being on the up and up, maybe not.....you don't know and neither do we.

 

No, what I see wrong, is someone like you thinking it is wrong to expect someone saying the government is trying to take away jobs.... to provide actual proof that this is happening.

 

That is a pretty serious charge....too bad it comes from someone that can't back it up. How do I know they are full of crap? Well for one, they state things they cannot back up.

 

But that is the whole point, people like YOU are judging people like ME who are critical of Henry J. Why? Because I caught him saying a SWAT team came into the warehouse when it was actually federal officers with sidearms? When he said that they actually pointed guns at the workers and they did not? You tell me.

 

Gee..I don't know...but as the old saying goes.."fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me!" There are more lies Henry J said that make me doubt his credibility, but I hope you get my point. Henry J is not the trustworthy soul people here make him out to be. Maybe because of the lies he has been caught in? That much IS fact!

 

Webe123....what's up man? You okay...stressed out maybe? This is what you often do......you either start a post and give people time to hang themselves before you pounce on them.....or you take pot shots in other peoples threads.

 

I am not "stressed out" over anything. You or someone makes a claim and I expect you to back it up. I try to do that myself, if I have a story I share. Somewhere, I put a link to the article that I have read that made me say what I said about the article.

 

I mean, maybe I am reading it wrong and if so I apologize.......but the ALL CAPS THING and accusing people of lying (as in another thread) or that they are full of crap. It is just not cool man and I for one am sick of it.

 

Well let me tell you what I am sick of. I am sick and tired of people like you and others setting yourselves up as judges over me as to the differing opinion I have on different subjects. You got a problem with me? Fine. Lets take it to a mod, but DON'T pull this self righteous position with me and talk down to me. I don't appreciate it and I will not stand for it! Got it? I really do hope so.

 

 

Join the conversation, have some fun, impart some wisdom, agree and disagree........but lose the fighting attitude please, friend. There is so much of that BS going on all around us we don't need more of it here.

 

Again please drop the self righteous attitude. Now You have spoke your piece and I will speak mine. You seem to think it is a "duty" of yours to call into question me or anyone else that is distrusting of things said on the net.

 

I am not mad at the person who spoke them, but I would like them to back them up. That is, if they want to lend credibility to what they are saying.

 

Sorry to be a jackass. Just me, I speak my mind.

 

And I have spoken mine. 'Nuff said.

 

 

 

 

[Fumblyfingers]

You are funny dude. You get so uptight about stuff and you know what....no, it is not me.Take a good long look. Quit yelling in all caps at people and telling them to prove what they are saying and quit calling people liars webe123.

 

I don't call you into question for distrusting things said on the net........everybody knows the high percentage of it is BS. It is opinion, and you are entitled to yours as well.

 

For example......if you just said you disagreed with someone and such and such was your position. Fine!! No problem there.

 

It is when you start yelling at people and telling them they are wrong, full of crap, a liar, where is your proof...etc etc etc. And yes, you have done this. How would you like it if people did it to you, unprovoked? Took something you said and called you a liar, full of crap etc and kept telling you to prove it.

 

This thread was tottering a bit but started moving along nicely, and then you fly in here with accusations that people are full of it. C'mon man.

 

[Fumblyfingers]

Anyway, back to our regular programming. I just found this, I don't know if it has been discussed yet, this latest coverage.......kinda buried.

 

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20111009/ARTICLES/111009533?p=1&tc=pg

[Bluesape]

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e397/reifspano/Apes/ape1.gif Ahem! Is someone laying odds that I won't lock this sucker down too? Keep it civil, peeps! Else there's gonna be a hangin'! http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e397/reifspano/Apes/gorilla19.jpg

[Fumblyfingers]

You got it buddy....sorry!

[Scott Fraser]

Anyway, back to our regular programming. I just found this, I don't know if it has been discussed yet, this latest coverage.......kinda buried.

 

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20111009/ARTICLES/111009533?p=1&tc=pg

 

Finally, someone just lays out the facts, without the overheated political rhetoric. Thanks for that, Fumbly. Everybody ought to read this article before setting their opinions in stone & starting fights with their neighbors.

[Fumblyfingers]

Well you are quite welcome Scott.

 

Yeah, the problem is finding honest or impartial reporting. As we all know the news media.......or should I say entertainment media....is so biased depending on whether it is the liberal press or conservative etc. So all one can do, since none of us have access to the real skinny.....well, 99.99% of us........... is to try weed our way through the reporting and make up our own opinions.

 

Then, by interacting with others perhaps we can sort through that even more.

 

For example.....I have not really paid much attention to the Wall St protest. Just casually glancing at it. In a sense I felt....well it is their right to protest and I would fight to the death to preserve that right........and if they feel they are getting screwed over by capitalism.....okay go out there and protest it. ( While checking the stocks on their iPads, surfing the web on their laptops or calling momma on their iPhones)

 

However.....then I listened to a woman talk on Sirius radio. She owns a panini store on Wall St...her and her husband. Small business owners. Well nobody is coming to buy their lunch anymore because the people camping out in front of her store are pooping and peeing all over and the stench is horrendous. They come in by the hundreds bothering her to use the toilets, to dump their poo bags in her toilet, to use her electricity for their iPhones, iPads and laptops, to sleep in there etc etc etc etc and not a one of them has offered to buy anything.

 

She is hurting. Is this fair? And why is the liberal media not reporting this? Well I have not seen anything about it.

 

So yeah...you have to take most of it with an open mind.

 

BTW....Craig Anderton over at the HC Forums, has inside contacts at Gibson, by way of his standing in the music and electronic community, music press etc. He told us he called there and talked with some people, unfortunately he could not divulge anything specific he was told. He was asked he keep the information confidential.

 

He was able to say something to the effect (to the best of my recollection) that what Gibson is saying happened, did happen the way they told it. The way Henry pretty much said.

 

I don't know if that means any guns were drawn or any of that...but yes, the authorities came in in a threatening and intimidating manner and I suppose you could say it was a hostile take over of their business.

 

Now....everyone knows that they are going to pad what really what happened so that future lawsuits can reflect that etc...and also, when people are scared they sometimes get a distorted view of what is happening.....but I think it is clear that armed men came in, shut them down, took their hard drives, took raw materials, prevented them from shipping current orders and on and on.

 

All this without due process of law. No charges have yet been filed and the DOJ refuses to talk about it at all.

 

Sniff, sniff......hmmm....what's that I smell?