Newbie: Kurzweil PC3 vs PC88 - Stereo vs Mono

[I-missRichardTee]

I have played an old Kurzweil PC88 for many years. Got it USED a number of years ago. I have gotten used to acoustic piano samples AND I use it with one full range powered speaker for many gigs.

The acoustic piano stands up after all these years.

 

I borrowed a friends PC3 yesterday. I tried it in Mono ( the PA promised was not forthcoming ) it was only a piano and Rhodes type gig, so I thought this should be cool.

 

I don't understand why, because the PC3 always sounds great in the stores I've tried it in... but that was in a STEREO PA! Is this the issue - the newer stuff has to be played/ heard in stereo; because the PC3 sounded pretty weak compared to the PC88 in Program Mode.

 

This is baffling me.

 

This is a great board/ Forum, I'm loving all the info here. Thank you very much!

[I-missRichardTee]

I should have asked: My PC88 has seen better days. Any suggestions for a new board whose acoustic pianos sound great in Mono, for those quick in and out gigs?

I thought for sure the PC3 would cover it, but it sounded phasey, and thin, like it HAD to be in Stereo... duh!

A few of my friends like the +$4000 Nord stage 2 keyboard. Any other suggestions, please let me know.

I appreciate a place like this... sooo very helpful.

[Tobias Åslund]

Having owned a PC88 for 16+ years - it sounds strange that the PC88 would sound better than a PC3, in any way!

 

The key to getting good sound from your digital piano is to always use a good stereo set of speakers. You can spend as money you want on a really nice digital piano/synth/workstation, but if it's played through a crappy single "keyboard amp" it will surely sound like sh*t.

 

Also - I know from back when the PC88 was my main board - it really sounded dull and pretty lousy if the amplification wasn't top notch. Then I started playing it through a set of JBL 15" Eons - and that's when it really came alive.

 

So, first get a good set of speakers, then you can think about getting a new board.

[ELP71]

Some of this boils down to what your ears are used to. We've all been guilty.

[frogmonkey]

Hmmm, that's peculiar. While phasey mono-summed pianos are a familiar problem to me, I have never experienced that with my PC3X. I play mono piano all the time- usually "studio grand" or "NYC Jazz" patches- and it sounds great.

 

And we have heard explicitly from Dave at Kurzweil that the samples are treated so as to avoid that issue.

 

In fact, the Nord is where I am more likely to get phase issues, even in "mono" mode (on an electro3). It's driving me crazy (I think it's time to try different samples).

 

If you don't get the answers you seek in this thread, do yourself a favor and search the forum. There has been a lot of discussion about it.

[Franz Schiller]

Doesn't the PC3 have specifically labelled "mono" programs for just such an occasion?

[Tobias Åslund]

Yes the mono button on the Nords doesn't work too well. A few pianos (romantic upright etc) do work quite nicely in mono, but basically all of the grands have phase issues.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

My church had a PC88MX, so I am familiar with the sound. I have a PC3 and PC3X - personally I like the pianos better. My studio is stereo, but most of the time I gig mono with it. I have found that some amp/speakers don't sound as good with it (unless I run a mixer in-between). My older JBL EON15G2's are that way. However, it sounds great on either the EV SXA100+ pair or the QSC K10's. If I am running mono, all I do is just connect to the Left/Mono output with nothing connected to the Right output.

 

There are some mono pianos in the PC3 - notably the "Blues Piano" which is the one I usually use when gigging with the band if I want acoustic sound. So, there should be no phase distortion or other "collapse to mono" effects on that patch,

[I-missRichardTee]

I attemped to use most of the keyboard ( ac piano - a few Rhodes too ). sounds available- Studio... Rubenstein Horowitz etc, among the first 10 offerings.

 

Ok, some context ( sorry I didn't provide it sooner )

the band was playing louder than I normally would play the PC88 .

Electric bass player was a pro, but the general volume was louder than my ears are used to, on my more jazz oriented PC88 gigs.

 

(The Drummer was great- anyone ever hear of Gerry Brown? What a pleasure. Anyone in LA area know of him? He is a killing drummer)

 

I was SUPPOSED to have been able to use to PA as well as my G2 15' Eon.

The promised PA did not pan ( is that sort of a pun? ) out!

So I was JUST using a single 400 watt Eon!

Some people knock the Eon, but though not stellar, it can get fairly loud, and sounds more than decent with the PC88 but on volume levels a bit below the other nights gig.

In a pinch, I have used PC88 with left hand bass AND a jazz vocalist- JUST the single JBL on a PA stand- no PA support- and I was surprised it worked.

 

The other night I did NOT use a PA stand! Again, I was expecting a PA.

 

 

The TONE of the PC3 , was just not doing it in mono. I think I ended up using #5 around Horowitz . Here's the thing, even at lower volumes, it did NOT sound as good as my old ( weighted vs non weighted?? ) PC88.. not even close.

 

A little more history

I recall first using this PC88 about 10 to 15 years ago. I was a sub in a club and the pianist ( he owned this PC88 at that time.. later I bought it from him ) at one point UPGRADED to the NEXT Kurzweil offering... the predecessor to the PC88, the PURPLE one. Kurzweil fans will recall the model.. maybe PC2???

I LIKED that model even BETTER than the PC88. Of course that was in stereo- the PA was used with both the PC88 and then the purple Kurz.

 

That is why I am confused as to why the PC3 was Soooo ( not PC3X ) inferior sounding to the PC88.

 

This boils down to - not so much what Im used to- or the higher volume level

 

1 Mono versus stereo

2 weighted vs non weighted

 

I have to ask because I have to replace the PC88

Which keyboard TODAY is at least equal to the PC88 for a jazz style- in MONO?

 

 

 

[I-missRichardTee]

Having owned a PC88 for 16+ years - it sounds strange that the PC88 would sound better than a PC3, in any way!

 

The key to getting good sound from your digital piano is to always use a good stereo set of speakers. You can spend as money you want on a really nice digital piano/synth/workstation, but if it's played through a crappy single "keyboard amp" it will surely sound like sh*t.

 

Also - I know from back when the PC88 was my main board - it really sounded dull and pretty lousy if the amplification wasn't top notch. Then I started playing it through a set of JBL 15" Eons - and that's when it really came alive.

 

So, first get a good set of speakers, then you can think about getting a new board.

 

 

That is precisely the speaker system I use used G2 15" Eon

The point is, the PC88 sounds MUCH better than the PC3!!!

 

I realize it makes no sense... I was as shocked by this as you would expect.

I will never use the PC3 again. My friend is looking to sell his PC3 so he lent me his. My PC88 is acting up with erratic behavior, so I thought I took a measured chance with the PC3. I have played the PC88 through Eons for a very long time. That is why I knew right away that the sound of the PC3 ac pianos were substandard to the very familiar PC88.

 

[AnotherScott]

That is why I am confused as to why the PC3 was Soooo ( not PC3X ) inferior sounding to the PC88.

 

This boils down to - not so much what Im used to- or the higher volume level

 

1 Mono versus stereo

2 weighted vs non weighted

 

Although piano sounds do play better from a weighted action, allowing you better expression, and psychologically heloing you "connect" to the sound, I don't think that would be the big factor here because you said you enjoyed playing a PC3 in a store.

 

Though also, I'd be surprised if the PC3 pianos in mono were not as good or better than anything older (though I've never actually played a PC88).

 

If I understand correctly, you were comparing the sound of the two through the same Eon speaker of yours. Is it possible that the person you borrowed the PC3 from had it set with some non-standard EQ, perhaps to optimize it for his own speaker system?

[LarsHarner]

I attemped to use most of the keyboard ( ac piano - a few Rhodes too ). sounds available- Studio... Rubenstein Horowitz etc, among the first 10 offerings.

 

Ok, some context ( sorry I didn't provide it sooner )

the band was playing louder than I normally would play the PC88 .

Electric bass player was a pro, but the general volume was louder than my ears are used to, on my more jazz oriented PC88 gigs.

 

(The Drummer was great- anyone ever hear of Gerry Brown? What a pleasure. Anyone in LA area know of him? He is a killing drummer)

 

I was SUPPOSED to have been able to use to PA as well as my G2 15' Eon.

The promised PA did not pan ( is that sort of a pun? ) out!

So I was JUST using a single 400 watt Eon!

Some people knock the Eon, but though not stellar, it can get fairly loud, and sounds more than decent with the PC88 but on volume levels a bit below the other nights gig.

In a pinch, I have used PC88 with left hand bass AND a jazz vocalist- JUST the single JBL on a PA stand- no PA support- and I was surprised it worked.

 

The other night I did NOT use a PA stand! Again, I was expecting a PA.

 

 

The TONE of the PC3 , was just not doing it in mono. I think I ended up using #5 around Horowitz . Here's the thing, even at lower volumes, it did NOT sound as good as my old ( weighted vs non weighted?? ) PC88.. not even close.

 

A little more history

I recall first using this PC88 about 10 to 15 years ago. I was a sub in a club and the pianist ( he owned this PC88 at that time.. later I bought it from him ) at one point UPGRADED to the NEXT Kurzweil offering... the predecessor to the PC88, the PURPLE one. Kurzweil fans will recall the model.. maybe PC2???

I LIKED that model even BETTER than the PC88. Of course that was in stereo- the PA was used with both the PC88 and then the purple Kurz.

 

That is why I am confused as to why the PC3 was Soooo ( not PC3X ) inferior sounding to the PC88.

 

This boils down to - not so much what Im used to- or the higher volume level

 

1 Mono versus stereo

2 weighted vs non weighted

 

I have to ask because I have to replace the PC88

Which keyboard TODAY is at least equal to the PC88 for a jazz style- in MONO?

 

 

 

Although I didn't have a PC88 for many years I used a Fatar Studio 900 controller, which had the same action as the PC88 as well as a MicroPiano Kurzweil module which had similiar sounds and samples.

 

I think there are some newer models such as the SP series.

 

I use a Yamaha P95 now, but maybe just take a look at the Casio PX-330; I believe it uses a Steinway sample as well, it reminds me a little more of the PC series more so than the Yamaha and Korg

[Dave Weiser]

I have played an old Kurzweil PC88 for many years. Got it USED a number of years ago. I have gotten used to acoustic piano samples AND I use it with one full range powered speaker for many gigs.

The acoustic piano stands up after all these years.

 

I borrowed a friends PC3 yesterday. I tried it in Mono ( the PA promised was not forthcoming ) it was only a piano and Rhodes type gig, so I thought this should be cool.

 

I don't understand why, because the PC3 always sounds great in the stores I've tried it in... but that was in a STEREO PA! Is this the issue - the newer stuff has to be played/ heard in stereo; because the PC3 sounded pretty weak compared to the PC88 in Program Mode.

 

This is baffling me.

 

This is a great board/ Forum, I'm loving all the info here. Thank you very much!

 

Sorry to hear that you had a hard time with the PC3 at your gig.

 

As far as feedback we've heard from many, many customers, our newer boards actually perform much better in mono than our older models. We have a good number of dedicated mono piano presets (like the Blues Piano that Moodyblues mentions), but all of our stereo pianos sum to mono quite seamlessly.

 

I feel like there must have been some other factor in the equation that's being overlooked. You're sure that only one of the PC3's outputs was connected to the Pc3?

 

Honestly, based on the description, the first thing that came to mind was that both outs of the PC3 might have been plugged into the PA without being panned on the PA? (Just trying to rule out the obvious stuff first.)

 

Do you recall if the PC3 had the most recent OS?

Had it been used in setup mode at all during or before the gig?

(Exiting a setup with strange parameter settings could leave the instrument in a screwed up state.)

Were you able to play the PC3 with headphones at the gig?

(While unlikely, it would really help to troubleshoot if the PC3 had sounded strange through headphones at the time.)

 

You mentioned the gig calling for Rhodes.... did the Rhodes sounds give you an equally hard time at the gig?

 

Wish I could do more to help get to the bottom of this. Please let me know if you're going to be checking out a PC3 anytime in the near future, and I'll give you some tips for troubleshooting mono performance. I'd like for you to be able to put it through it's paces in a controlled environment.

 

Feel free to contact me if there's anything else you think of.

davew@ycrdi.com

 

 

 

[I-missRichardTee]

I will ask if he changed eq

 

We are talking about a "moving target", here. This is not a straight forward situation, but a couple of "moving targets" , if you know what I mean?

 

PC88 is weighted, and I like it.

PC3 is not weighted, but the keyboard I really like in the store is the WEIGHTED 88 key version that was being raved about, over 2 years ago. Maybe PC3X??

THAT one ALWAYS sounded killer in the store IN STEREO

 

The two moving targets are STEREO - Mono

And Weighted - Non Weighted

 

The PC3 has two factors stacked against it, in my real world shoot out. Plus the gig was LOUDER than I normally play the PC88. And that detracts as well.

 

I don't know what to think at this point.

[I-missRichardTee]

Dave

I apologize for not being more objective... it was a gig first, not a true shootout comparo.

I reacted with emotion instead of objectivity.

I am wondering about the Outputs myself.

This is a truly dumb question what do you mean when you say, 'seamlessly sum to Mono'.

Do you mean the Stereo samples/ patches, whatever they are called - do you mean eg "Horowitz" is meant to be in stereo but it can be easily modified to Mono, based on the manner in which it is engaged, esp the OUTPUTS???

 

Is there a wrong way to hook up to a PA in Mono?

 

I am sorry if I screwed this up Dave. I am on pain medicine this week, and oh well!

 

[MoodyBluesKeys]

One thing that I have noted on the acoustic pianos on my PC3 (and PC3X) is that the pianos that sound best when I am solo in a quiet area - like the Rubenstein and Horowitz; don't seem to cut through as much in the band.

 

The ones that sound a bit harsh if playing solo work great with the band - like the Rock Piano and Blues Piano).

 

Again - I found that my JBL EON 15's imparted a slightly harsh sound with the PC3 plugged directly into them. This effect does NOT occur with the older Kurzweil boards that I had (K2000VP, K2661, PC2, SP88X). With my DAW computer in between, or with a small mixer inbetween, the harshness goes away. This harshness does NOT appear with the EV or QSC speakers.

 

If running Mono, I take a single feed from the Left/Mono jack - BTW, I always use TRS balanced connectors - the PC3 outputs are balanced.

 

The picture in my avatar is the studio setup with the Electro 3 on top and the PC3X on bottom.

[Dave Weiser]

Dave

I apologize for not being more objective... it was a gig first, not a true shootout comparo.

I reacted with emotion instead of objectivity.

I am wondering about the Outputs myself.

This is a truly dumb question what do you mean when you say, 'seamlessly sum to Mono'.

Do you mean the Stereo samples/ patches, whatever they are called - do you mean eg "Horowitz" is meant to be in stereo but it can be easily modified to Mono, based on the manner in which it is engaged, esp the OUTPUTS???

 

Is there a wrong way to hook up to a PA in Mono?

 

I am sorry if I screwed this up Dave. I am on pain medicine this week, and oh well!

 

Funny... I am on a fair share of pain meds myself this week.

(Out of the office too... but with lots of idle time to check forums!)

Please, no need to apologize!

 

The Pc3 can detect if you have one or both outputs connected. If only one output is connected (regardless of L or R), the PC3 will treat any given sound as if it were mono.

If both outputs are connected the PC3 will send stereo sounds as a stereo signal.

 

The only "incorrect" way to hook up a PA is as I described (and kind of unlikely) - having both L and R jacks connected to the mixer, but then on the mixer, not having those signals panned hard Left and hard Right. THAT would cause a very unpleasant sound/playing experience.

 

 

 

[I-missRichardTee]

Ok Dave and Moody Blues

 

Well, we know I did NOT have a "buffer", a mixer, between the PC3 and the Eon.

Who knew? I have gotten away without the extra burden to quick setup for all these years with the PC88.

 

Dave- in my case, multiple teeth extractions- long overdo! I'm looking forward to feeling better ( younger!) shortly.

 

I understand that though a tad harsh in the mids, the second generation Eon is the best of the bunch ( vs the newer Eons )

 

Off topic but, what level mixer, quality wise, is recommended for the tone enhancement of the Eons? Behringer good enough or something better?

 

 

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I have several small Tapco mixers, ranging from a tiny one with 1 mic and 2 stereo line channels up to a 10 channel. These are no longer in production, but they were quite inexpensive.

 

Even though I have been an electronic tech for decades, and worked on musical electronics much of that time - I have never completely understood exactly why the PC3 sounded a little harsh through the pair of EON 15's - ONLY if directly connected, but it does. Things that have helped: feeding the input that is switchable mic/line that has an XLR connector sounds better than feeding either of the 1/4" jack inputs. I presently leave the pair of EONs at my church gig, feeding them with a Tapco mixer with a PC2 (not PC3) and Electro 3 - they work fine for that purpose. They were a little ungainly to carry around anyhow.

 

The older Kurzweils (like the K2000 I had) seemed more tolerant of what amplification was connected to them. I ran the 2000 into a solid-state MusicMan bass combo amp, worked fine - the PC2 didn't work as well.

 

My studio has a pair of EV 12" powered PA cabs - I used them for gigging until I got a pair of K10 by QSC. Both sets of speakers do NOT have the harshness even when directly hooked up with TRS cables between the PC3 and the speakers. Ideal for the studio would be a set of near-field monitors - but the EV's are paid for and do get the job done.

 

Tapco is a low-cost division of Mackie - so the quality is probably in the general range of Behringer. I would not use these boards for recording, but they work fine live. I like having the gain controls right next to me while playing, so I can make any changes needed without leaving the keyboard. The one thing I don't like about the little Tapcos is that they have a line wart power supply. I have thought about getting an Allen & Heath ZED 14 - but it is a lot larger unit (besides, some added expenses have come up due to Hurricane Irene).

 

I also try to keep my gig rig down in size so that I can load in and out in a single trip with stuff bungeed to a modified (lengthened) RockNRoller cart. I'm 70, and can't pick up a 2x15 bass cab and toss it in the truck like I could when I was 40.

 

Far as the G2 EONs - I like them fine in other ways. When they first brought out the G3, the major complaint I heard was that the line input was not as sensitive. My church just bought a pair of the 15's for mains - we are changing out the whole audio system to replace some old and failing gear.

 

 

[I-missRichardTee]

I don't think that would be the big factor here because you said you enjoyed playing a PC3 in a store.

 

Though also, I'd be surprised if the PC3 pianos in mono were not as good or better than anything older (though I've never actually played a PC88).

 

If I understand correctly, you were comparing the sound of the two through the same Eon speaker of yours. Is it possible that the person you borrowed the PC3 from had it set with some non-standard EQ, perhaps to optimize it for his own speaker system?

 

Thank you for your questions and suggestions

I highly doubt the guy I borrowed PC3 modified the eq globally

 

I may have mispoke but I never played a PC3 in a store but rather the WEIGHTED version of it

 

The PC88 is around 20 years old, but you ought to try it someday.

I guess its ac piano sounds are more PA friendly, where as the newer boards are more sensitive to the right PA and in stereo to boot.

 

It would appear like there ARE no suitable replacements for the PC88

I refer to the string bass sound. I disliked the ac bass for a long time, Gradually I am realizing it is fuller and more bass like than I first thought.

[JeffLearman]

The Pc3 can detect if you have one or both outputs connected. If only one output is connected (regardless of L or R), the PC3 will treat any given sound as if it were mono.

If both outputs are connected the PC3 will send stereo sounds as a stereo signal.

 

The only "incorrect" way to hook up a PA is as I described (and kind of unlikely) - having both L and R jacks connected to the mixer, but then on the mixer, not having those signals panned hard Left and hard Right. THAT would cause a very unpleasant sound/playing experience.

Doesn't the PC3 just sum to mono when only one output jack is used? If so, there shouldn't be any difference between summing to mono in the PC3 and summing to mono in the PA.

 

Someone interpreted your post above to imply that partial panning sounds bad on a PC3. I'd like to understand why; it doesn't make sense to me. If the PC3 sums well to mono, it should also handle the full range from stereo to mono. That is, if there aren't any phase cancellation issues in mono, then there wouldn't be any phase cancellation issues with partial panning. (Note: I don't ever advocate partial panning; I feel it's not the best use of the stereo feed. But it shouldn't sound any worse than mono, where the phase cancellation would be at the maximum.)

 

So, it must not be a phase cancellation issue. What else could it be?

 

Thanks!

[drawback]

For me, the disconnect and perceived lack of dynamics that happen while trying to play piano on unweighted keys, changes everything.

 

Am I missing anything by recommending the first step be to try the PC3x, not the PC3, in mono. Same sounds, very different experience.

 

 

[AnotherScott]

I may have mispoke but I never played a PC3 in a store but rather the WEIGHTED version of it

Ah. Then I agree with Drawback... reserve judgment until you play it from a weighted action. It is common that that is an entirely different experience, in terms of how the piano responds to velocity/dynamics, which can color your entire impression of the sound.

[I-missRichardTee]

I see I c said the blind keyboard player. It is hard to believe that that one aspect can make such a profound tonal difference.

 

If this is "the culprit" ( sorry Dave Weiser 0_0 ) this immediately leads to more attention onto HOW THE KEYBOARDS ACTION INTERACTS WITH THE SOUND ENGINE.

 

What are the acknowledged ac piano favorites here at Keyboard Corner?

The $6000 Roland, the $4400 Nord?

I have thought about this, but without the proper information it becomes guess work and instinct.

 

 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

this immediately leads to more attention onto HOW THE KEYBOARDS ACTION INTERACTS WITH THE SOUND ENGINE.

That's true... but I"m not aware of *any* non/semi-weighted action that ever feels really good with piano. Some are better than others, but they are all very substantial compromises compared to playing with a piano-style action.

[JeffLearman]

There is no acknowledged piano favorite.

 

The good ones are all pretty good, and they all fall short of our favorite acoustic pianos (but are better than mediocre ones, IMHO!)

 

The standard for software pianos is Ivory. Not necessarily the best in everyone's opinion, but it's the one that all the others are compared to.

 

I don't think there's an equivalent standard among the hardware keyboards. Many love the Kurz sound, which has been consistently good for many years now, and was the gold standard not too long ago. But today there are a number of contenders and little agreement about which is best.

 

In any case, you can't pick a piano by listening to what anyone has to say. You have to play it and decide for yourself.