MOX8 question

[Ed Coury]

Unlike previous Motif and S-series Yamahas, it looks like the MOX8 doesn't have buttons with instrument groupings (pianos, horns, synths, etc.). That would be disappointing, especially for live work.

[Sven Golly]

...and the question is?

[Sven Golly]

That would be disappointing, especially for live work.

 

It's probably good to keep in mind that the MOX series is intended to be a cheap entry-level studio-focused unit (cf the Cubase integration, the USB audio interface functionality, etc) rather than your live performance board... so maybe keeping context in mind would be best.

 

Of course, YMMV.

 

 

[Adan]

Some of the things they got rid of definitely make it less good for live use.

[Mogut]

Looks to me like it has category search just like the motifs have.

[Sven Golly]

Looks to me like it has category search just like the motifs have.

 

Category Search ≠ Category Buttons.

[Cygnus64]

Looks to me like it has category search just like the motifs have.

 

Yup. It also looks like it has "performances", which are great for live setups.

[Sven Golly]

Looks to me like it has category search just like the motifs have.

 

Yup. It also looks like it has "performances", which are great for live setups.

 

To be clear, my interpretation of the OP is: "When I play live, I like being able to use the Motif's Category mode to be able to quickly dial in the right type of sound with the minimum of button pushing..." ... which means he's not necessarily doing any work PRIOR to the gig to prepare patches/performances/etc.

 

So, Category Search doesn't have the same type of immediate access that the Motif offers.

 

Hope that clears things up.

 

(Signed, a 7-year owner of a Motif ES7 )

[AnotherScott]

Unlike previous Motif and S-series Yamahas, it looks like the MOX8 doesn't have buttons with instrument groupings (pianos, horns, synths, etc.). That would be disappointing, especially for live work.

 

The 8 buttons labeled A-H on the MOX (located where the instrument groupings you mention are located on those other instruments) do indeed function as Category Select, just as they did on those models. However, since there are only 8 of them, you only get one button access to the first 8 of the categories: Piano, Keyboard, Organ, Guitar, Bass, Strings, Brass, Sax/ww. To get to the rest, you have to use the INC button or the data wheel. They probably felt it was confusing to print panel labels for shortcuts to "half" the categories, but you could certainly label them if you want to.

 

However, I don't think calling up sounds using the Category Select function is all that useful for live work anyway. It takes too long, as it still always involves multiple push buttons and/or scrolling, and I think that was true on the Motif XS as well (which at least had the benefit of a larger screen so you could see more patches on the list at once). Instead, you should find the sounds you like, put them in a user bank, and then you have one-button access to any 16 sounds you want, with single button access to any of 7 additional sets of 16 (again, using those A-H buttons).

 

One of the cool things about the MOX is that when you pick one of those sets of 16 sounds, let's say the H button, the display shows you the names of the 16 sounds that are then assigned to the 16 buttons for immediate recall. Unfortunately, as soon as you pick a sound, that display goes away (replaced by the name of the one patch you selected), so if you want a constant "reminder" of what the 16 currently button-assigned sounds are, you have to hit the H button again after picking a sound. And an unfortunate and really strange (or should I say "typically Yamaha"?) thing is that the names of the 16 patches are displayed as 4 vertical rows of 2, whereas the actual buttons are 2 horizontal rows of 8, which makes for a less than instantaneous translation. I understand the limitations imposed by the display, but they could have at ordered the patch names horizontally to at least *somewhat* better match the horizontal layout of the actual buttons.

[AnotherScott]

So, Category Search doesn't have the same type of immediate access that the Motif offers.

Actually it does, but only for the first 8 categories. On the plus side, those are probably the most often used categories. On the down side, as you point out, category search kinda sucks for live use anyway. Anyway, it basically works the same on both models as far as I can see, though some extra button pushing and scrolling may be required on the MOX due to the combination of fewer buttons and smaller screen, both obvious concessions to get the price down.

[AnotherScott]

Some of the things they got rid of definitely make it less good for live use.

That's true... but even with what's left, I think it's got quite a lot of excellent live use functionality... and actually the best I've seen in a lightweight (<40 lbs) 88.

[AnotherScott]

It's probably good to keep in mind that the MOX series is intended to be a cheap entry-level studio-focused unit (cf the Cubase integration, the USB audio interface functionality, etc) rather than your live performance board... so maybe keeping context in mind would be best.

 

Of course, YMMV.

 

Yup, my mileage varies. I see the MOX as equally live and studio oriented... and its greatest appeal to me is its live functionality. The light weight, dedicated split/layer buttons, and scroll-free access to tons of sounds and setups are all things that increase its appeal to a live performer.

 

But I wish companies wouldn't try to "split the difference" like this. Korg did the same thing when they made the lightweight M50 version of the M3. These companies make lighter, less expensive versions of their flagships with an apparent philosophy of "let's make it 75% as good of a workstation, and 75% as good of a performing board, as our top model." They cut back a little everywhere. I wish they would make boards that are really optimized for gigging.

 

In this case, for example, Yamaha took out a bunch of workstation features like sampling and 128-note polyphony and (I believe) cut back on simultaneous effects. Fine, I don't need those for gigging, and I'm fine with a lower quality action to get the gig weight down. But then they also took away things I'd really like for gigging, like aftertouch and additional pedal control... the things you use for live sound manipulation. And even though they take out sampling, which makes sense to me, I wish they'd leave it some of the RAM so we could load sounds into it at home and use those sounds live (or load in 3rd party sounds). I would rather they took out the sequencer, the arpeggiators, the drum/rhythm stuff, all the recording stuff, and make a lightweight board that didn't compromise so much on the gigging side.

 

That said, the MOX8 is still a very strong live board.

[e-keys]

Slightyly OT: I would like to get the motif sounds myself. What I am leaning towards is the XS module and a good controller. Once set up you are good to go live or home in your studio. I know it sounds kind of 80's and 90's, but it is still a good option. I like being able to pick the kind of action I want.

[Adan]

The 8 buttons labeled A-H on the MOX (located where the instrument groupings you mention are located on those other instruments) do indeed function as Category Select, just as they did on those models.

 

I suspected this was the case, but I've only had my MOX a few days. I was going to confirm this when I got home.

 

Motif sounset in a 15 lb 61 (or 33 lb 88) keyboard = a good board for live use, even if the design still leans heavily towards workstation. For the kinds of gigs I'll be using it on, I won't be setting up performances at the gig. All that programming gets worked out in advance so that, hopefully, only minor tweaking happens at the show.

 

For other kinds of gigs, I'll use other tools.

[Sven Golly]

Yup, my mileage varies.

 

Okay, perhaps instead of YMMV, I should have posted ECMMV (Ed Coury's Mileage May Vary).

 

[Steve Force]

Yup, my mileage varies.

 

Okay, perhaps instead of YMMV, I should have posted ECMMV (Ed Coury's Mileage May Vary).

 

Ed is a electric vehicle kind of guy..

[Moonglow]

.....But I wish companies wouldn't try to "split the difference" like this. Korg did the same thing when they made the lightweight M50 version of the M3. These companies make lighter, less expensive versions of their flagships with an apparent philosophy of "let's make it 75% as good of a workstation, and 75% as good of a performing board, as our top model." They cut back a little everywhere. I wish they would make boards that are really optimized for gigging.....

+1

 

I was recently thinking about exactly this, as well.....

 

[Mogut]

.....But I wish companies wouldn't try to "split the difference" like this. Korg did the same thing when they made the lightweight M50 version of the M3. These companies make lighter, less expensive versions of their flagships with an apparent philosophy of "let's make it 75% as good of a workstation, and 75% as good of a performing board, as our top model." They cut back a little everywhere. I wish they would make boards that are really optimized for gigging.....

+1

 

I was recently thinking about exactly this, as well.....

The S90 series does this for yamaha.

[AnotherScott]

The S90 series does this for yamaha.

Almost.

 

But it's 50 pounds! That's not gig-friendly. (And that's even before you put it in a case... and cases for 50 pound boards can't be too flimsy themselves.)

 

But you're right, functionally, that's closer to what I wanted the MOX8 to be. Something more like an S90XS with a lighter (i.e. GHS) keybed and the correspondingly lighter chassis. (And yes, as much as I dislike them, I'm willing to stick with the MOX's external power supply over the S90's internal, if necessary to keep the weight down.) Though I would ideally want them to also include some RAM for loading the same third-party voice libraries you can load into the Motif XS.

 

And actually, it looks like the MOX8 really has some very nice live performance oriented features that out-do even the S90XS... I haven't used the S90XS, but based on the manual, the expanded use of the Number [1-16] buttons looks like a major new benefit for live use, quick patch selection looks much improved. And the bigger screen is a significant improvement. But then, the MOX is a newer board, after all.

 

A version of the MOX8 with those specific performance-friendly S90XS features--aftertouch, 4 faders, extra foot controller jack, pair of assignable outs--would have been great. Better yet, also add RAM (or the ability to add it) for loading third-party libraries (or your own sounds). And while we're at it, sure, let's throw in the S90XS' better piano sound. That would be an ideal gig board. (And as I said, I wouldn't bemoan the loss of sequencer/arpeggiator/rhythms/audio-USB integration etc. if that was the tradeoff.)

 

Part of it is, I know, they are engineering to a price point. But as Nord has learned, you don't have to link low weight to low price. If the MOX8 had all the S90XS features I mentioned, I'd be willing to pay considerably more for it. Heck, I'd pay the price of an S90XS. I bet the S90XS itself would have sold more in recent years--at the same price it's been selling for--if it had weighed 15-20 pounds less (even with that meaning a shift to a GHS keyboard and external power supply). And Yamaha would have made more money on each one!

 

[mikecorbett]

The S90 series does this for yamaha.

Almost.

 

But it's 50 pounds! That's not gig-friendly. (And that's even before you put it in a case... and cases for 50 pound boards can't be too flimsy themselves.)

 

But you're right, functionally, that's closer to what I wanted the MOX8 to be. Something more like an S90XS with a lighter (i.e. GHS) keybed and the correspondingly lighter chassis. (And yes, as much as I dislike them, I'm willing to stick with the MOX's external power supply over the S90's internal, if necessary to keep the weight down.) Though I would ideally want them to also include some RAM for loading the same third-party voice libraries you can load into the Motif XS.

 

And actually, it looks like the MOX8 really has some very nice live performance oriented features that out-do even the S90XS... I haven't used the S90XS, but based on the manual, the expanded use of the Number [1-16] buttons looks like a major new benefit for live use, quick patch selection looks much improved. And the bigger screen is a significant improvement. But then, the MOX is a newer board, after all.

 

A version of the MOX8 with those specific performance-friendly S90XS features--aftertouch, 4 faders, extra foot controller jack, pair of assignable outs--would have been great. Better yet, also add RAM (or the ability to add it) for loading third-party libraries (or your own sounds). And while we're at it, sure, let's throw in the S90XS' better piano sound. That would be an ideal gig board. (And as I said, I wouldn't bemoan the loss of sequencer/arpeggiator/rhythms/audio-USB integration etc. if that was the tradeoff.)

 

Part of it is, I know, they are engineering to a price point. But as Nord has learned, you don't have to link low weight to low price. If the MOX8 had all the S90XS features I mentioned, I'd be willing to pay considerably more for it. Heck, I'd pay the price of an S90XS. I bet the S90XS itself would have sold more in recent years--at the same price it's been selling for--if it had weighed 15-20 pounds less (even with that meaning a shift to a GHS keyboard and external power supply). And Yamaha would have made more money on each one!

 

So AnotherScott, I take it your not selling it after all? You like the keybed well enough?

[AnotherScott]

So AnotherScott, I take it your not selling it after all? You like the keybed well enough?

yes. At least for now, I'm keeping it. Despite some annoying flaws, I think it has an unbeatable combination of flexibility, sound, and weight. Keybed is fine... I like it better after setting the Velocity curve to Soft. I'll miss the super low weight of the PX3 (which is still very nice for its size and price), but it really offers a lot more. It's funny, I expected to keep the Stage 2 and ended up selling it; I expected there was a good chance I wouldn't keep the MOX, and I'm keeping it.

[zephonic]

This is not apparent from the site: does the MO-X engine respond to aftertouch? I know the keyboard does not transmit, just wondering if the sounds do respond when played from another board?

 

[Sven Golly]

This is not apparent from the site: does the MO-X engine respond to aftertouch? I know the keyboard does not transmit, just wondering if the sounds do respond when played from another board?

 

The MIDI Specification in the back of the manual would answer that question... but I'd wager that yes, it will.

 

 

[allan_evett]

 

But I wish companies wouldn't try to "split the difference" like this.... They cut back a little everywhere. I wish they would make boards that are really optimized for gigging.

 

In this case, for example, Yamaha took out a bunch of workstation features like sampling and 128-note polyphony and (I believe) cut back on simultaneous effects. Fine, I don't need those for gigging, and I'm fine with a lower quality action to get the gig weight down. But then they also took away things I'd really like for gigging, like aftertouch and additional pedal control... the things you use for live sound manipulation. And even though they take out sampling, which makes sense to me, I wish they'd leave it some of the RAM so we could load sounds into it at home and use those sounds live (or load in 3rd party sounds). I would rather they took out the sequencer, the arpeggiators, the drum/rhythm stuff, all the recording stuff, and make a lightweight board that didn't compromise so much on the gigging side.

 

I had a chance to play the MOX8 at my local GC this week. Wow, finally a graded action in a multi-purpose 88. The Yamaha S Series had been my go-to for piano, and some other sounds for about 10 years; but the balanced action was starting to give me tendonosis in my RH. So last year I sold my S90ES (which I'd had for 5 years), and an S90XS (which I tried briefly to see if its balanced action - which I heard had been updated - would work out for me.).

The MOX8 would be a great bottom tier 88 for my rig if it had:

Flash Ram capabilities, like the Motif XF; or at least offered the S700 pianos.

At least four sliders, like the S90ES/XS had.

 

At 33 lbs. it's an ideal 'board. But the above limitations keep me from giving it more serious thought.

 

[mikecorbett]

I played one extensively today beside an RD700NX, an FP7, a S70XS,and I must admit that the action felt cheap. Dissapointing as I was really trying to like the board as its weight and footprint are right, and the sounds from the Motif XS, piano and EPs specifically are definetly sufficient for stage piano duties. I have a feeling that if I used this board it would aggravate all kinds of hand problems. My favorite action of the lot was the RD700NX, which I wasnt expecting to like as I never liked the RD700SX action. It seems much lighter and more realistic, so Roland have come a long way in my estimation in the last few years. FP7F also felt excellent but it is limited as a stage piano as it has no way to adjust balance of volume between layers.

[mikecorbett]

So AnotherScott, I take it your not selling it after all? You like the keybed well enough?

yes. At least for now, I'm keeping it. Despite some annoying flaws, I think it has an unbeatable combination of flexibility, sound, and weight. Keybed is fine... I like it better after setting the Velocity curve to Soft. I'll miss the super low weight of the PX3 (which is still very nice for its size and price), but it really offers a lot more. It's funny, I expected to keep the Stage 2 and ended up selling it; I expected there was a good chance I wouldn't keep the MOX, and I'm keeping it.

 

Thats cool, I'm happy for you. It certainly comes up top in terms of weight, features, price, and its action isn't terrible...I just felt it didn´t do me any favours, and after playing the NX for a half hour I thought I couldn't live with the compromise..

IMO there is no perfect board.

I also tried out the CP50 and CP5....OMG, the operating system is a nightmare, what were Yamaha thinking...they are so confusing that I think its a deal breaker for me even though the boards sound and feel good...

[allan_evett]

........

IMO there is no perfect board.

I also tried out the CP50 and CP5....OMG, the operating system is a nightmare, what were Yamaha thinking...they are so confusing that I think its a deal breaker for me even though the boards sound and feel good...

 

I feel that Yamaha creates keyboards that sound better than great, but their user interfaces - especially for live performance - range from slightly above average to somewhat convoluted. When the CP5 was shown at NAMM 2010, I loved the sound; so I downloaded the manual shortly after that for further study. Yes, it's also a powerful controller, and has a lot of thoughtful features; that was evident. But the layout/function flow is anything but intuitive; quite the learning curve, and frankly a bit of a trip down the rabbit hole, once I had a chance to spend some time digging into a CP5 at a local dealer.

At least my Motif XF 7 has a somewhat logical layout; Master Mode is quite a powerful control tool once learned. Why Yamaha didn't design the CP5/50 control layout with a similar footprint is a mystery. After all, Master Mode had been present in the ES and XS series of Motifs and S keyboards prior to the release of the new CP's. If the CP5 had been constructed with a user interface similar to the XS/XF, it would likely have been a done deal for my rig. Yes, I know that there is a Motif XF8, but the necessary degree of piano velocity sensitivity - compared to that of the CP5 (or my present 88, the RD-700NX) - just isn't quite there for me. The RD is a stellar instrument, and a dead simple, intuitive controller. But after so many years of Yamaha "pianos" being my rig staple, I still miss the tone.

 

No 'perfect board' ? True. But when Kurzweil has an instrument with an uber-controller interface - plus sample and model based multiple engines, and the Kronos is on the verge of release, I would think that Yamaha and Roland would already be more on the ball with an all-in-one type of keyboard.

[AnotherScott]

The MOX8 would be a great bottom tier 88 for my rig if it had:

Flash Ram capabilities, like the Motif XF; or at least offered the S700 pianos.

At least four sliders, like the S90ES/XS had.

 

At 33 lbs. it's an ideal 'board. But the above limitations keep me from giving it more serious thought.

If you happen to own an iPad, it looks like you'll be able to add faders to the MOX8 using the Faders and XY Pad app shown at http://www.yamahasynth.com/jp/library/motif_xf/ipad/soon.html -- it appears that those apps will work wirelessly on a Motif, and work hard-wired on a MOX, as shown at

 

Otherwise, you might be able to add the sliders by mapping controls from an external box like an M-Audio Evolution UC33e. I looked at that briefly, and I'm not sure... it's not straightforward, but it might be possible.

 

The thing that astounds me is, not only did Yamaha not put the four sliders on the MOX (which, as you point out, are on the S90 and also on the MO8 that the MOX8 is superseding)... they didn't even build in a way to use 4 of if its knobs as volume controls for the 4 parts you can assign to the keyboard.

 

Yeah, flash RAM would be great. My own intent--since I always want a weighted and unweighted board anyway--is to mate the MOX8 with a Kronos 61... that's where I'll have the flash RAM capability (and, for that matter, access to pianos that should outperform the S700 sample you mention). If you were trying to stick with one board, and needed to be able to trigger samples, you could add a Waldorf Blofeld module or a V-Machine to the MOX8 for at least some of that capability.

 

[AnotherScott]

after playing the NX for a half hour I thought I couldn't live with the compromise.

Yeah, the new Roland actions seem outstanding (I played the FP-7F). But the boards are over 50 pounds. They may feel better to my fingers, but will feel worse for my arms and back! The MOX keyboard is clearly not in the same league, but I don't think there's any other action that feels significantly better in a board that's under 33 pounds.

 

I haven't played with it that much yet, but I think the MOX8 action actually feels better with the velocity set to Soft... I think it stops you from wanting to "lay into" the keys as much, even if you're not consciously aware of it, because you're getting the full "punch" of the sound with a lighter touch.

[Moonglow]

The MOX8 would be a great bottom tier 88 for my rig if it had:....At least four sliders, like the S90ES/XS had.....

If you happen to own an iPad, it looks like you'll be able to add faders to the MOX8 using the Faders and XY Pad app shown at http://www.yamahasynth.com/jp/library/motif_xf/ipad/soon.html -- it appears that those apps will work wirelessly on a Motif, and work hard-wired on a MOX, as shown at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAa4tUDjDy0.....

Hey thanks for sharing, Scott. Very cool, but where to mount for live performance?

 

.... they didn't even build in a way to use 4 of if its knobs as volume controls for the 4 parts you can assign to the keyboard.....

You fully anticipated my next question. That sucks.

 

I played a MOX8 a couple of days ago, and must admit I enjoyed it MUCH more than I thought I would. If it had the four sliders (or if the knobs functioned as sliders....) and other basic MIDI controller capabilities (e.g., variable splits, layers, initial volume settings), I would have walked out with one. With these functions, coupled with a clonewheel, the MOX8 would make a nice rig I could use for wedding receptions or other gigs where I don't need the horsepower of my "A" rig.

 

Question: Is the "Full Concert Grand" patch on the MOX8 the same as the Motif XS-Rack? I'm really warming up to this piano.....