Is it worth buying a real Hammond?

[Odyssian]

Hi all,

I'm in the beginning stages of a new music project. It's one that includes other people (instead of a computer), so I'm very excited about it.

 

I was wondering if it would be worth it to seek out a Hammond M-100 or similar model to play. To be honest, I've never played a real Hammond before. I've owned a Leslie 900 before, but not a Hammond (boo!).

 

Anyway, the thing that shocked me recently was that I found out how much they can weigh. How does one actually MOVE a 400 pound beast around, anyway?

 

Anyway, considering the above, would it be worth it to buy and use a real Hammond, or should I save my back and stick with my Triton Extreme for organ sounds?

 

[Sven Golly]

If you have to ask, you've already answered the question.

[Joe Muscara]

I think if you really want to get into the instrument, you could start with a dedicated clone or maybe something like an M3.

 

Are you looking to move it around? If so, go with a clone.

[ITGITC]

Anyway, considering the above, would it be worth it to buy and use a real Hammond, or should I save my back and stick with my Triton Extreme for organ sounds?

 

What's your budget?

 

A real Hammond doesn't have to weigh very much.

 

What about the XK-3c?

 

I'd choose it over the Triton Extreme.

 

 

 

[Marzzz]

If you are going to move it around a lot, then no, it's not worth getting a real Hammond unless you are a real purist, in which case you wouldn't be asking this question. If it is going to be used only in your studio, then get a B-3, C-3, or A-100; i.e. The major deal instead of one of the smaller organs.

[CrimsonianKing]

Anyway, considering the above, would it be worth it to buy and use a real Hammond, or should I save my back and stick with my Triton Extreme for organ sounds?

 

What's your budget?

 

A real Hammond doesn't have to weigh very much.

 

What about the XK-3c?

 

I'd choose it over the Triton Extreme.

 

 

 

I'd choose ANY clone over the Triton Extreme.

 

[dazzjazz]

Man get a B2 off eBay - so cheap these days and so much better than a clone - just add a TREK percussion kit and you've got a killer B3

[mate stubb]

Do you want to learn to be an organist? If so, get an organ.

 

If you just want pads, any old thing will do.

[Adan]

Given how little you seem to know about it, I would say, no, don't make that kind of investment until you've become more educated. If there's a store that sells them within driving distance, go play one.

 

I would also infer from your post that you'll be wanting to move it around. If so, you should probably start with a Hammond clone, then add a real leslie, then maybe later get a B.

[bourniplus]

If you have the place for it, I'd say get yourself an M3 or M100, they can be had for close to nothing. Be aware that they can be quite addictive and soon you might want a leslie... and a full console...

[Odyssian]

Would a clone be any better than the organ sounds in my Triton Extreme (w/ MOSS)?

 

Hmm... just checked the weight on an M3 - 250Lbs. That's a lot better than 400Lbs! There are also mods for foldback to make it very similar to a B3. I wonder how much a chopped M3 would weigh?

[J. Dan]

Any clone would be better than the triton. It has some ok organ sounds and the Leslie sim isn't bad, but there is just no comparison to a clone. I have a triton and thought the organ sounds were good until I bought a CX3. No comparison. I feel like I can't find a good organ to save my life on the triton now. And the cx3 (used, purchased from our own Hookie) was relatively cheap.

[CrimsonianKing]

Would a clone be any better than the organ sounds in my Triton Extreme (w/ MOSS)?

 

Hmm... just checked the weight on an M3 - 250Lbs. That's a lot better than 400Lbs! There are also mods for foldback to make it very similar to a B3. I wonder how much a chopped M3 would weigh?

 

Definitely, I own a Triton too and the organ patches are not just bad, they're really really bad. I guess you can tweak it a bit and make it sound usable.

 

The choices you have : get a M3, M-100 or something similar, Remember : even though they're lighter than a B3, they're still heavy, by heavy i mean really heavy. If you're moving around too much, this is not the best option.

 

Or get a clone (with drawbars would be a better choice, so you can start understanding how it works).

[BluesB3]

 

 

How does one actually MOVE a 400 pound beast around, anyway? smile Hmm... just checked the weight on an M3 - 250Lbs. That's a lot better than 400Lbs! There are also mods for foldback to make it very similar to a B3. I wonder how much a chopped M3 would weigh?

 

Skip the M100. Lots of cheap M3's around $200 max on the West Coast. Don't chop a M3. I guess you could pull the amp and speakers out and save a little weight. Then spend $300 for some Roll-or-Kari's.

 

Too much fuss is made about "hauling a B3" 1st of all it doesn't weigh 400 lbs if you leave the pedals and bench at home. You do need the right vehicle though if you're going to gig. Maybe a mini-van or a small trailer. You're looking for a situation where it's not a shoulder high lift from the vehicle to the street. Lots of ADA spec handicapped access ramps around now, so if it rocks it rolls. Most gigs I could have a B3 and Leslie off the trailer and set up faster than an Apex stand, two clones, and hook up midi cable, expression pedal, Speakeasy preamp, 1/4" cables, and stage monitor speakers. Flights of stairs are a dealbreaker or you bring something else.

 

As others have said, don't rule out A100's or B2's or C2's & C3's. I see these for less than the clones but they might need a grand or so of work to bring them up to snuff but they're imminently rebuild.

 

See this article on moving the B3 http://www.myplanet.net/x77dude/moving.html he knows of what he speaks.

[Aidan]

The trouble is, in my experience, flights of stairs are a fact of everyday life, not just a once in a blue moon dealbreaker. Despite all the legislation, a lot of venues here in the UK just don't have convenient ramps everywhere (mostly because they're quite old). This situation is precisely why my Rock n Roller cart lasted about two gigs and has been gathering dust ever since.

 

Odyssian, I would definitely be thinking clonewheel here. If you want to eventually go double manual, or have the flexibility of doing so, then the Hammond XK3C should be top of your list (or maybe a used XK3 and add a Ventilator), or if you know you want a double manual straight away, then either wait for Hammond's SK2 to start shipping or take a look at the Nord C2.

 

If you're content for the thing to sit in one place all year, maybe bar a couple of gigs, then by all means consider the real thing. Otherwise, well, even our esteemed B3-er gigs with a clonewheel.

[Josh Paxton]

My standard Hammond advice: Don't think about getting a Hammond in the same way you'd think about getting another keyboard; think about it in the same way you'd think about having a child. Because it comes close to that level of commitment and dedication. It's not just another keyboard; it's a lifestyle change. Beyond the cost of the instrument itself (and the Leslie(s), and the cart, and the stomp box, and the random accessories, etc.), it will affect the kind of vehicle(s) you own and the kind of places you can live. There will be things you'll have to sacrifice for it. To take care of it correctly, there will be new things you'll have to learn, and you'll inevitably screw some of them up sometimes. You'll frequently envy the carefree life led by your Hammond-less friends as they jauntily sling their Nord Electro over their shoulder and head off to a gig on their bike. There will be times when it will seem like an unshakeable burden that brings you nothing but misery, and you'll wonder why you ever wanted one in the first place.

 

If you want one so badly that your love for it can overcome all of that, then get one. Otherwise, get a cat clonewheel and be happy with it.

 

(The obvious difference: If you get a Hammond and decide you hate it, you can always sell it. I hear they frown on that with kids.)

[Gary75]

It depends how old you are? It's great fun when your young and it's great for bonding a band together if there happy to move one. I wouldn't be totally against it. Saying that, your talking reliability, they cost to maintain unless your fortunate enough to know someone. Me, I went Italian...

[Jim Alfredson]

It all depends on what the end goal is. Why do you want a real Hammond? Is it because the instrument fascinates you or because you've always wanted one or because all your favorite music uses one? Or because yo want to learn to be a legitimate organist? If so, then get one.

 

Is it because you need some better organ sounds (yes pretty much any dedicated clone is going to be better than the Triton)? Then I recommend a Hammond XK3c, XK1, or the new SK1 that begins shipping this summer.

 

The only reason to use the real deal in these modern times is nostalgia, you have roadies and it is your main axe. And even then, 90% of the time I'd rather play my Hammond XK system.

[ITGITC]

 

The only reason to use the real deal in these modern times is nostalgia, you have roadies and it is your main axe. And even then, 90% of the time I'd rather play my Hammond XK system.

 

Posted in the early hours of the morning by a muso pro I know and respect.

 

Advice from guys like Jim is invaluable, as he gigs about 400 days/year.

 

Lots of good advice here from everyone. You guys RAWK.

 

Tom

 

[JMcS]

(The obvious difference: If you get a Hammond and decide you hate it, you can always sell it. I hear they frown on that with kids.)

 

On the plus side, a Hammond will do what you ask and it won't argue with you about it.

 

Owning a Hammond is a bit of a hobby. In addition to the annual maintenance like oiling it there is the "over time" stuff. Repairing the old electronics and possibly mod-ing a spinet to add foldback etc. Then there are the little issues like the one or two (or many) notes that don't always play all the drawbars that are pulled out because the busbars are worn or the keys that clatter because the keycombs and felts are worn and so on. These can be the little quirks that make your Hammond unique or the crap that cause you to stop playing it. If you enjoy tinkering with this kind of stuff and consider it fun and part of the hobby that is great but if you don't it can get annoying and expensive. A "home" Hammond can be a lot of fun. A travel Hammond can be a way to do penance on earth and cut some time off of purgatory.

[Jim Alfredson]

Agreed. If it's going to stay in one place, by all means get one. They are a lot of fun and only by owning a real one will you fully understand the instrument itself. Kind of like owning a real acoustic piano. Sure you can own the best digital re-creation there is, but it still won't be like a real acoustic piano.

 

If you're planning on moving it at all (to gigs, to a studio, etc) then get a new Hammond cloneweel.

[Odyssian]

Hey guys, thanks for all of the great thoughts. Sorry, my previous reply was done from an "unfreshed" page that didn't display all of the posts at the time.

 

Sorry, I didn't give more info as well. Some of the reasons that I've been considering a Hammond are:

 

1. I'm a die hard fan of 70s progressive rock, which of course, is loaded with GREAT Hammond sounds.

 

2. My new music project is based on the above.

 

3. I know that M series Hammonds can be had for next to nothing (my budget is very low - the less the better).

 

4. I'm a electronics tech by trade, so I might be able to do some/all? of the mods myself.

 

5. This music project may or may not get to the live gig level. I personally would be happy just recording a CD down the road. Of course, that might change - I don't really know yet.

 

 

So those are some of the main points floating around in my head. If I do chop an M3, if the weight gets below 200Lbs, like say 150Lbs or so, it seems like myself and one other person would be able to put it in the bed of my pickup rather easily. That would be 75Lbs to lift for each person. That's not bad at all. Does anyone reading this own a chopped M3? Do you know the weight?

 

I do have some other questions (sorry if this is too much to ask in one thread). Please remember I'm a Hammond newbie, so these questions might make some of the pros roll their eyes a bit!

 

I plan to make use of distortion. What's the best way to do that with an M3? Just crank the volume up full? Use a effect pedeal, or guitar amp?

 

I also would like a Leslie effect. Would a Motion Pro be suitable? Would a "virtual" Leslie be suitable? I'd like to keep the costs down, otherwise I'd go for the real thing.

 

All of this is just me contemplating the possibilities for this music project. I don't know if I'd buy anything at all, but I'm thinking owning a real Hammond would be amazing.

 

I'd like to hear more thoughts about your own Hammond rig. How often to you play it vs a clone? Is anyone else using a real Hammond in a prog rock situation? What do your bandmates think about it? Do you have any comments about it when gigging? Have you recorded with it?

 

Again, thanks for any info, and sorry about the many questions...

 

[bourniplus]

I suggest you check out the Organ forum (Hammond section). A friendly forum just like this one with lots of Hammond/Leslie geeks including myself. You'll find some of the answers you're looking for, and threads about chops, DIY leslies, mods, repairs, etc.

[Joe Muscara]

My standard Hammond advice: Don't think about getting a Hammond in the same way you'd think about getting another keyboard; think about it in the same way you'd think about having a child. Because it comes close to that level of commitment and dedication. It's not just another keyboard; it's a lifestyle change. Beyond the cost of the instrument itself (and the Leslie(s), and the cart, and the stomp box, and the random accessories, etc.), it will affect the kind of vehicle(s) you own and the kind of places you can live. There will be things you'll have to sacrifice for it. To take care of it correctly, there will be new things you'll have to learn, and you'll inevitably screw some of them up sometimes. You'll frequently envy the carefree life led by your Hammond-less friends as they jauntily sling their Nord Electro over their shoulder and head off to a gig on their bike. There will be times when it will seem like an unshakeable burden that brings you nothing but misery, and you'll wonder why you ever wanted one in the first place.

 

If you want one so badly that your love for it can overcome all of that, then get one. Otherwise, get a cat clonewheel and be happy with it.

 

(The obvious difference: If you get a Hammond and decide you hate it, you can always sell it. I hear they frown on that with kids.)

Awesome post!

[CEB]

FWIW - I have never seen a chop that was easier to HANDLE than a intact organ. Easier to transport, ( better able to fit in the bus luggage bins, van, wagon etc.... yes but not easier to handle).

 

Personally I do not think it is worth the trouble of doing a foldback mod to a Spinet but if you are a tech it would be a good way to learn how the generator works. But that is just me.

 

As far a overdrive there is a method that the Organ Forum guys do not seem to be familiar with that I have bounced around around over there. I think they think I'm crazy ... they are right. First of just try cranking the organ and see what you got if that is not enough and you are playing a rig with reverb you can try to find an old device called the Ice Cube.

 

Try to find the original blue Ice Cube and run on the reverb circuit (this will disable the reverb). The Ice Cube was a product that was available before guitar players were able to buy all the distrtion and overdrive pedals you see today. It made the Reverb knob on a Fender amp an overdrive knob. If you can not find one you can create you own jumper for the reverb circuit. I think it is a pretty simple circuit to replicate. IMO the ice cube worked a lot better for organ applications than it did for guitar stuff and it is totally non invasive.

 

I really try to discourage guys that do not know what they are getting into from gigging with tonewheels. But everyone who plays should have one at home or in the studio especially if they have your electronic skills. It is a shame that you can not even find even a Jr College course on basic tube electronics anymore.

 

Given a choice I would rather play a fake tonewheel through a real leslie than a real tonewheel through a leslie sim but that is just me.

[Meisenhower]

The above posts are spot on, but I just thought I'd add a couple of opinions.

 

At the core of it, there is NO true substitute for playing a big box Hammond thru a leslie. LIke others have said, it becomes a "lifestyle" to a certain degree when you've joined the club and becomes part of the fabric of our being. Owning a Hammond is not like owning just another instrument (at least it's not for me).

 

That said, should you be considering a console (even a small one) to gig with? I'd say no. The negatives FAR outweigh the positives, especially from someone who is a neophyte to the instrument. Buy a clonewheel, as it will be way better than your Triton for organ sounds.

 

There is little reason to ever gig with a full console Hammond, unless you're Dr. Lonnie Smith (or some equally bad ass organist), or have a road crew. The clonewheels are that good and infinitely more practical.

 

There is little to be gained by "chopping" a Hammond, since the bulk of the weight still resides in the top portion and nothing can be done about that.

 

If you're totally new to Hammond and really want one to have the experience and keep it at home, buy an inexpensive M3 or M100 and play the hell out of it. They'll get you much of the experience and give you the opportunity to learn the instrument without the expense of a B or C3 or A100.

 

FWIW, I own four Hammond consoles (each with leslies) and do occasionally gig with my B3 or BC. It's almost always my organ trio or a higher profile gig that warrants brining out the big guns (and it's as much a show of force as it is for the sound). The rest of the time, my XK3 happily does the job quite well and my back and bandmates don't hate me!

 

Enjoy!

[B3Nut]

Chops are a waste of time. I use clonewheel + Leslie for most gigs. Big stuff I don't mind hauling out the furniture, I've moved my B-3 by myself. As long as there aren't any stairs, it's a pizza cake, kindasorta. Roll-Or-Kari dollies are your friend, no matter what model Hammond you get.

 

As good as the clones are, nothing beats the overall feel of a console, and that oil smell wafting up after she's been on a while. )

 

The best bargains in a full console are usually A-100 series organs, same guts as the B-3/C-3 in a self-contained box with a lovely little speaker system built in. They show up from around $300-$800 around these parts...

 

Oh, and yes, buying a Hammond is a lifestyle change. I've had them for going on 22 years now, and I wouldn't trade it for anything. These boxes get under your skin. A good Hammond will be the best musical instrument "friend" you'll ever have. And exceptionally rare is the bad Hammond that cannot be made good with some elbow grease and solder fumes.

 

Good luck in your quest!

 

TP

[Adan]

My standard Hammond advice: Don't think about getting a Hammond in the same way you'd think about getting another keyboard; think about it in the same way you'd think about having a child. Because it comes close to that level of commitment and dedication. It's not just another keyboard; it's a lifestyle change. Beyond the cost of the instrument itself (and the Leslie(s), and the cart, and the stomp box, and the random accessories, etc.), it will affect the kind of vehicle(s) you own and the kind of places you can live. There will be things you'll have to sacrifice for it. To take care of it correctly, there will be new things you'll have to learn, and you'll inevitably screw some of them up sometimes. You'll frequently envy the carefree life led by your Hammond-less friends as they jauntily sling their Nord Electro over their shoulder and head off to a gig on their bike. There will be times when it will seem like an unshakeable burden that brings you nothing but misery, and you'll wonder why you ever wanted one in the first place.

 

If you want one so badly that your love for it can overcome all of that, then get one. Otherwise, get a cat clonewheel and be happy with it.

 

(The obvious difference: If you get a Hammond and decide you hate it, you can always sell it. I hear they frown on that with kids.)

Awesome post!

 

Interestingly, I think this post has persuaded me not to have children (kinda been on the fence about that). However, I'd still like to own a B3 for the home again, someday.

[frogmonkey]

I love love LOVE my A100/Leslie 251! I don't gig with it, though. I like the idea of it, but it's too much work. I use a clonewheel for gigs (Electro3).

 

I know a couple guys who play lots of gigs on an M100 and Leslie 145 or 147. I've helped them move it, and it's not so bad. You definitely need a van or something.

 

In my opinion it's not worth it to haul a real tonewheel Hammond if you're not using a real Leslie. If you're going to use a Leslie simulation, you might as well use a clonewheel.

 

However, it sounds like you're talking about a hobby band that won't play a ton of gigs. You're an electronic tech, so you should do fine tinkering with the thing and making the necessary modifications. If your bandmates are into helping you move the organ, it might be fun to use an M100.

 

You asked about distortion. The classic way to get it would be to overdrive the (tube) Leslie. Clonewheels with Leslie sims have a convenient "overdrive" knob for that. A dedicated Leslie sim like the Ventilator also has such a knob.

 

About Chops: The overwhelming opinion on this forum is that it's not worth it to chop, and I have followed that advice myself. However, there are plenty of touring/gigging Hammond chop players who would disagree. There are two distinct advantages to a chop: (1) it can be handled by two people and (2) it can fit in a smaller vehicle.

[CEB]

Read the Hammond forum at the Organ Forums. I would say 80% of the nasty technical questions come as a result of a chops gone bad.

 

Also B-3 C-3 and A-100s are not the end all as far as classic rock organs go. My favorite organ for classic rock I have played is a particular CV that eats my and most other B-3s alive. The manual bass is killer .... but it doesn't have percussion. I would not play Jazz on that CV but it has a balls out the wahzoo.

 

Personally I would not mess with a spinet when you can get into many cool consoles for $400 or $500. B, C, BC, BV, CV, B-2 C-2, etc..... Model E or an RT-3 are cool especially if it is going to stay at home.

 

The model A is nice because the cabinet size in only 28" deep but personally I don't like the sound of an A as well as the later models. But other people love the sound of a model A. It sounds too much like a circus organ to me. But the cabinet size is nice. With the B-3 there are time we would have to turn the thing on end to get it through doorways. That sucks a little.