'sweet home alabama'

[Tonysounds]

I love this forum, because every day I learn at least one thing. And today, is no different.

 

Lets see: NEVER play a song until you have mastered every note, then, once you have mastered it, play it the same way every time you play it. Playing a song in any other fashion, substituting notes and phrases, constitutes inadequacy because if you could do it the right way, you would.

 

Disregard the fact that except for Rush and Yes and Genesis (where even the solos are arranged), most other musicians couldnt play (and wouldnt if they could) those solos a second time as they were improvised at the outset, and only capture a moment in time. So Miles Davis, failure; Jon Lord, failure; Jimmy Page (discuss!); Wayne Shorter, Josef Zawinul, Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea, Keith Emerson, Duane Allman, Eric Clapton, Jimmy Herring, Warren Haynes, Danny Louis, you guys have been wasting your time, and ours. Shame.

 

Ive always said the way a musician plays their instrument is a great indicator of what kind of a lay they are, as both are extensions of their personality. I dont care how good the orgasm is, if my woman played it the same every time we went to bed, Id be bored out of my fn mind. And I think shed think the same of me, so you can take that information and apply it any way you want.

 

And for godssakes, some please tell Carlos Santana that his version of Black Magic Woman and Oye Como Va are just proof that hes inadequate; and since Jimi is dead, out of respsect we wont denigrate his version of Watchtower.

 

Most importantly, I now totally understand why the inhabitants of the jam scene follow their favorite bands around: its not because they look forward to the musical explorations, but in fact, they are waiting for their talentless bands to finally PLAY THE SONG RIGHT!

 

[CEB]

I was in a jam band that would do about 60 gigs a year. I didn't like that label but I guess that is what we were.

 

I liked it at for the first year or so. But I found it hard after a while because I was asked to solo so much and the songs were in guitar keys and was for the most part blues based rock. It became hard not to get repetitive. It got to where I was doing quartal voicings and modal soloing in Bridge of Sighs (which seemed to go on for about 45 minutes) ... but the band loved my attempts to channel Evans but I wished the song had been shorter instead. They would give me a signal to solo and I would be like 'Hell what am I going to do now.'

 

After 3 years of that jam stuff cover band work became refreshing because there was actually more variety in the styles of play I got to do a night.

 

It was sort of like catching a kid smoking for the first time and breaking him of the habit by making him smoke a whole carton.

[Bill H.]

It just all depends on what kind of band you're in. If it's a cover band (or especially a tribute band) everyone on stage is expected to play the songs just like the recording - including improvised vocals and instrumental solos. If you're in a looser arrangement (call it whatever you want) you're not.

[Tonysounds]

I play in a lot of cover bands, and landmarks are hit. But frankly, the same way every time? That's why I get bored.

 

Jam bands do not equal cover bands who just wing it. Jam Bands are bands who engage in group improv to take songs different places. Big difference. But I digress...as usual.

[Joe Muscara]

I'm generally of the same school of thought as Tony, and I think Bill H. makes a good point. BUT, if you're in a tribute of a "jammy" band, I would hope you're not playing note-for-note every night. I also think that some "jam" bands do that because they can't play the same way every time or learn the parts, or they are too lazy.

 

I say that because that was my excuse. Since then, I've learned the value of learning the solo note-for-note, because you learn a ton by doing so. You can also steal licks. But once I learn that, I'm going to make it my own. I don't want to play like the original player did, I want to feel like he did when he played.

[Fusker]

When I hear a note for note solo, I assume the player bought the tablature. Ill leave it at that.

[Garrafon]

I now totally understand why the inhabitants of the jam scene follow their favorite bands around: its not because they look forward to the musical explorations, but in fact, they are waiting for their talentless bands to finally PLAY THE SONG RIGHT!

 

Now that is just funny. And I tend to agree with the overall tenor of your post. There are certain times doing the note for note thing is (kind of) important, but for the most part....giant yawn. I've always been of the school of thought that if I wanted to hear a band play the same exact notes as the original, I could just listen to the original. When I go to see a band, I want to see what that band can do with the songs. Frankly, I think emulating another band's sound is easier than coming up with your own twist on it.

 

One of the things I sometimes like to do with my band when I introduce a new cover song is NOT let them hear the original so we can make it our own.

[Adan]

IIve always said the way a musician plays their instrument is a great indicator of what kind of a lay they are,

 

That's kinda gross. I love Chick Corea, but I really don't want to think about him having sex. Ever. And my aversion to that has nothing to do with how he plays music.

[AnotherScott]

When I hear a note for note solo, I assume the player bought the tablature. Ill leave it at that.

If only sheet music were more often that correct!

 

But really, I don't know that it matters how many people admire a player for his "ear" at getting the part right, or his "chops" for playing it right (whether he got it by ear or from print-out), or his ability to improvise something new... different people will be impressed by different things. You're not always going to impress everyone no matter what you do. What matters overall is that it sounds good and you look like you're having a good time doing it. In other words, that you fill the role of "entertainer." After that, it's whatever you and your bandmates are happy with.

[Tonysounds]

IIve always said the way a musician plays their instrument is a great indicator of what kind of a lay they are,

 

That's kinda gross. I love Chick Corea, but I really don't want to think about him having sex. Ever. And my aversion to that has nothing to do with how he plays music.

 

You didnt really think I was imagining Chick Corea or (insert name here) between the sheets, did you?

[StanC]

. . . . There are certain times doing the note for note thing is (kind of) important, but for the most part....giant yawn. I've always been of the school of thought that if I wanted to hear a band play the same exact notes as the original, I could just listen to the original. When I go to see a band, I want to see what that band can do with the songs. Frankly, I think emulating another band's sound is easier than coming up with your own twist on it.

 

This is an old debate, at least for me. And I have to say that note-for-note vs. originality largely depends on your audience. In my experiences, the crucial difference is the musicians in the audience. Most can and will appreciate the originality as you indicate. But more times than I want to remember I've heard from the "laymen" in the crowd "What happened to that solo/song/vocal? Didn't sound anything like it is supposed to!"

[Josh Paxton]

My cover band runs the gamut from sticking pretty close to the originals (including the solos), to doing completely different arrangements. Most tunes end up somewhere between those two extremes. Here's the thing: on any given night, within a three-block distance, there are numerous other cover bands playing a lot of the same material, but mostly doing faithful note-for-note renditions. And on most nights we get quite a few people making a point of telling us, "We've been up and down this street and heard every band, and you guys are the best by far." They certainly don't seem to miss hearing all the solos note-for-note off the record.

 

Of course this is a self-selecting group; I'm sure there are other people with different tastes saying the same thing to the other bands. But that's exactly my point: there are audiences for both approaches, and all points in between. Pick your spot, do it well, and make it work for you.

[CrimsonianKing]

This thread is endless

[Ionian]

I love this forum, because every day I learn at least one thing. And today, is no different.

 

Lets see: NEVER play a song until you have mastered every note, then, once you have mastered it, play it the same way every time you play it. Playing a song in any other fashion, substituting notes and phrases, constitutes inadequacy because if you could do it the right way, you would.

 

Disregard the fact that except for Rush and Yes and Genesis (where even the solos are arranged), most other musicians couldnt play (and wouldnt if they could) those solos a second time as they were improvised at the outset, and only capture a moment in time. So Miles Davis, failure; Jon Lord, failure; Jimmy Page (discuss!); Wayne Shorter, Josef Zawinul, Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea, Keith Emerson, Duane Allman, Eric Clapton, Jimmy Herring, Warren Haynes, Danny Louis, you guys have been wasting your time, and ours. Shame.

 

 

Fantastic way to interpret my post completely wrong! First of all, maybe you missed the line in my post where I said that if you want to play the original solo and then take it out your way, that's fine with me. You play the solo to show you have a basic level of competence as a musician, then you can take it wherever you want.

 

As far as the original artist, it's their song so they can do what they want with it. If they want to improvise a new solo each performance, that's fine. To indicate that any of the artists you listed are failures if they don't change their solos is not even hinted at in my post so I have no idea where you're making that stuff up. What I said was that I play the original solo as a sign of respect to the artist and the original song. Did you even read my original post, or did you just fire off a response without thinking?!

 

Ive always said the way a musician plays their instrument is a great indicator of what kind of a lay they are, as both are extensions of their personality. I dont care how good the orgasm is, if my woman played it the same every time we went to bed, Id be bored out of my fn mind. And I think shed think the same of me, so you can take that information and apply it any way you want.

 

This is some of the funniest stuff I've read in a while! So let me get this straight - you smoke weed and noodle around a blues scale for 3 hours while you're in bed with your woman?

 

 

And for godssakes, some please tell Carlos Santana that his version of Black Magic Woman and Oye Como Va are just proof that hes inadequate; and since Jimi is dead, out of respsect we wont denigrate his version of Watchtower.

 

See the first half of my response.

 

Most importantly, I now totally understand why the inhabitants of the jam scene follow their favorite bands around: its not because they look forward to the musical explorations, but in fact, they are waiting for their talentless bands to finally PLAY THE SONG RIGHT!

 

Hey man, I don't know. I don't play on the jam scene. But thanks for filling me in.

 

Regards,

Frank

 

 

[Ionian]

Frankly, I think emulating another band's sound is easier than coming up with your own twist on it.

 

One of the things I sometimes like to do with my band when I introduce a new cover song is NOT let them hear the original so we can make it our own.

 

Here's the problem, is that most bands try to emulate another band's sound but usually fall far short. That's why when you hear it done correctly, it's impressive.

 

The second point you bring up is completely different - where you make a huge, stylistic change to a song. Then all gloves are off. And that kind of stuff usually is interesting. I've been in those kinds of situations, where you take popular songs and try to re-imagine them as something new. For example, a group I worked with once did, "Every Little Thing She Does is Magic" as a blues and "Toxic" by Brittany Spears as a reggae. That kind of stuff takes a lot of work and arranging to re-imagine in a creative way but it's a lot of fun.

 

What I more was referencing in my original post was bands who play a song, emulating the sound, but make up their own solos and the go back to the song. If you're gonna try to copy the song, then copy the solo.

 

If you want to do something fresh and creative from the start like a re-arrangement then all gloves are off since you're in new territory and it's blatant.

 

Regards,

Frank

[MikeT156]

It sounds like all this rearranging songs stuff is putting a lot of effort into "creating" when that kind of effort might be better used to creating your OWN music.

 

As I posted earlier, I'm don't care for being a human jukebox, I usually pick up the signature parts of a song and play them in a cover song. Why spend a lot of time recreating a song that someone else already has done?

 

Now, taking a Britney Spears anything and making it into something else can only be an improvement, so.....carry on.

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Mike T.

[Tonysounds]

Fantastic way to interpret my post completely wrong!

 

I don't think so Sport.

 

First of all, maybe you missed the line in my post where I said that if you want to play the original solo and then take it out your way, that's fine with me. You play the solo to show you have a basic level of competence as a musician, then you can take it wherever you want.

 

So you are the self-appointed "Lick Police". Awesome. But here's what you said originally, which is really where I think your logic train is a little off course:

 

Regarding the solo, as for every song, I will never play a song if I can't nail the solo or the sound. The end.

 

Well...while I admire your perfectionist streak, I have to ask you, is this fulfilling for you as a player? And this means we have to listen to you solo twice as long if we are to wait to hear you do some thing in your own voice? That's self-indulgent and masturbatory at its core my friend. And if you have to choose between the recorded solo and your own, you choose their's? Fine...but where's the growth for you, and the interest for the listener? Now, go back and reread my Santana/Jimi analogy.

 

As far as the original artist, it's their song so they can do what they want with it. If they want to improvise a new solo each performance, that's fine.

 

I'm sure they'll be glad to hear it.

 

To indicate that any of the artists you listed are failures if they don't change their solos is not even hinted at in my post so I have no idea where you're making that stuff up.

 

Well, that's what happens when you improvise, you make stuff up! In this case, I took your ideas, and expounded on them. In case you can't connect the dots, I used allegory and sarcasm to extrapolate your statement and take it to an utterly ridiculous conclusion. But, I expressed my point to those that could hear it. You obviously couldn't hear it. (Turns out that playing your own ideas helps you to better hear others' ideas too.)

 

What I said was that I play the original solo as a sign of respect to the artist and the original song. Did you even read my original post, or did you just fire off a response without thinking?!

 

See my previous comment. Not only did I read your original idea, I thought about it. And then I commented on it, using my own ideas, and other literary tools. If I didn't, I would have just copied your statement. Now what would be the fun or interest in that?

 

Ive always said the way a musician plays their instrument is a great indicator of what kind of a lay they are, as both are extensions of their personality. I dont care how good the orgasm is, if my woman played it the same every time we went to bed, Id be bored out of my fn mind. And I think shed think the same of me, so you can take that information and apply it any way you want.

 

This is some of the funniest stuff I've read in a while!

 

Thank you!

 

So let me get this straight - you smoke weed and noodle around a blues scale for 3 hours while you're in bed with your woman?

 

Now see, I admire your effort: you riffed all on your own with that one. It wasn't a very good riff, but you took that all important first step. Bravo! Keep it up Ace, you'll get the hang of this. Just keep putting yourself out there.

 

 

Most importantly, I now totally understand why the inhabitants of the jam scene follow their favorite bands around: its not because they look forward to the musical explorations, but in fact, they are waiting for their talentless bands to finally PLAY THE SONG RIGHT!

 

Hey man, I don't know. I don't play on the jam scene. But thanks for filling me in.

 

Yes, this is quite apparent. Admittedly, it's not for everyone. Like jazz, it's an acquired taste. But, like jazz, it's where the action is really: it's where musicians push themselves, and the audience gets the payoff, as well as the musicians. Of course, some people really like hearing Don't Stop The Heavin' Jessie's Brown Eyed Girl in the Summer of 69s, because Everybody's Workin For The Weekend. But believe it or not, they don't go to hear the solos, they go to hear the SONGS.

 

Words like Never, Won't, Every...you live in a world of absolutes, and Frankly (get it, "frankly"?), that's not music.

 

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

[Josh Paxton]

It sounds like all this rearranging songs stuff is putting a lot of effort into "creating" when that kind of effort might be better used to creating your OWN music.

 

Possibly, but not necessarily. Sometimes (re)arrangements evolve naturally, over the course of playing a song night after night, trying stuff, and seeing what works. My band's most elaborately rearranged songs have never been rehearsed or even discussed; that's just what they turned into after a few hundred performances by a group of musicians who can play, listen, and remember, and enjoy coming up with new ideas.

[Tonysounds]

FunkKeyStuff has it right! The key word here is EVOLVE! And you don't evolve playing the same thing over and over.

 

Now...if I would just evolve.

[Ken Beaumont]

Evolve? Hey I just got used to playing with opposable thumbs. Now you want me me to play while standing errect? I thought this 3 chord stuff was gonna be easy. I should have been a drummer!

[Mogut]

But believe it or not, they don't go to hear the solos, they go to hear the SONGS

Amen... why is this so hard to swallow for guitarists in coverbands?

 

Sorry... I'm down on guitar loser's these days

[stepay]

Man, not sure how I missed this thread, but WOW, 20 pages on a 3-chord song?

 

This is one song that I just can't hate...even though it is played a ton, I still love it. It was never officially on the set list in one of my bands, but when they'd scream for it, we'd play it. I love Lynyrd Skynyrd. Need a break from that southern rock after a few songs, but sometimes it's what's needed.

[Griffinator]

But believe it or not, they don't go to hear the solos, they go to hear the SONGS

Amen... why is this so hard to swallow for guitarists in coverbands?

 

Sorry... I'm down on guitar loser's these days

 

Guessing stuff like "The Magician's Birthday" or "Alright Now" aren't on your cover list. Would hate to see you get all bunched up over a guitarist taking a solo that is, well, an integral part of the song...

[CEB]

The Liszt thread has me devolving. I am getting back to my roots when I am not gigging. I had a rehearsal last night then I play tonight , Friday and Saturday. I am currently working on Liebestraum #3. My reading skills have went to crap.

 

Hopefully things slow down a little bit in January.

 

Just for giggles I think I will open Black Magic Woman with the opening bars of the 1st mov of Grieg's Piano Concerto in A minor. I start the song so I can do whatever I want.

[Mogut]

Guessing stuff like "The Magician's Birthday" or "Alright Now" aren't on your cover list.

You mean stuff that was popular 20yrs before the bar audience was even born? No!

 

Dude, don't bore us, get to the chorus!

[Mogut]

I'll never forget, we were playing a college bar (mich state) and jamming out chili peppers and outkast and all kinds of funky music I thought was great newer music. Until this 21yr old chick, innocently asked me "do you guys know any modern stuff?"

 

Chicks are tough critics... I'm telling ya!

[Tonysounds]

But believe it or not, they don't go to hear the solos, they go to hear the SONGS

Amen... why is this so hard to swallow for guitarists in coverbands?

 

Sorry... I'm down on guitar loser's these days

 

Guessing stuff like "The Magician's Birthday" or "Alright Now" aren't on your cover list. Would hate to see you get all bunched up over a guitarist taking a solo that is, well, an integral part of the song...

 

Wow, lots of manlove all of a sudden for 3chord wanks! (You arent that enamored of the SWA, but ARN gets you worked up?)

 

That said, All Right Now is one of those songs that separates guitarists from guitar players. (Like ZzTop) But honestly, that kind of solo isnt what were talking about, is it. You said it yourself, its part of the arrangement.

 

And while you have totally taken what I said out of context, Im actually a big fan of guitarists that can solo, and I want to hear them use their own ideas. (But again, most people in the audience go to hear songs, not soloists, and most of them couldnt tell a good musician or solo from a bad one, especially if its dressed up in a wig and porno moustache, and they dont care; Sweet Home Alabama will trump Giant Steps every day.)

 

[Griffinator]

Tony - my ire was directed at Mogut. Granted, I'm a multi-instrumentalist, and am serving precisely that role in my current band, but I play alongside a guitarist who can sight-read better than probably 90% of this forum (in fact, he sight-reads transcribed solos and plays them note-perfect in rehearsal) and has a better grasp of music theory than probably 40% of this forum. He's a jazz guy who plays in different style bands for the sheer fun of it (and because there just isn't any money in jazz in this town). The "Guitar loser" comment rubbed me a bit wrong, on his behalf, not my own.

 

PS: I hate "Alright Now" - but it's a song we play, and we have a little fun with it by mashing it up with "Keep on Rockin' Me", which has virtually the same intro riff, which makes for easy transition between the two.

[Griffinator]

Guessing stuff like "The Magician's Birthday" or "Alright Now" aren't on your cover list.

You mean stuff that was popular 20yrs before the bar audience was even born? No!

 

You mean like SHA?

[Mogut]

 

Guessing stuff like "The Magician's Birthday" or "Alright Now" aren't on your cover list.

You mean stuff that was popular 20yrs before the bar audience was even born? No!

 

You mean like SHA?

This one owner told me she books the bands that play the classic rock stuff on thursdays. At that place they have live music, thurs friday, and saturday.

 

She said this to me just last week.