Organ clone +Synth ????

[stevie b]

I saw the thread title and could only think of this:

 

 

Doesn't weigh anything and it sounds great.

 

That Nord E3 + Lead is a nice looking light weight rig.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

This does sound like a really nice combination of two boards. It somewhat lacks the real time synth controls, but with all of the Kurz assignable controllers it may be a mute point with a little selective setup editting.

 

There is a PC3 programmer that hangs on SonikMatter, has released a group of 42 vintage analog patches, the last 12 are all VA; he has set the following controller assignments:

Slider A : Square OSC Volume

Slider B : PWM Amount for the Square Wave

Slider C : Filter Cutoff

Slider D : Resonance

Slider E : Filter Envelope Amount

Slider F : Filter/Amp Envelope Attack

Slider G : Filter/Amp Envelope Decay

Slider H : Filter/Amp Envelope Release

Sider I : Saw OSC Volume (+ 1 octave)

Button SW : Introduces 2 detuned Square/PWM and/or Saw waves (depends on the volume of sliders A and I), this sounded fatter to me than just a Chorus effect.

Modwheel : Noise Volume

 

That group of assigned controllers is probably quite sufficient for anything that one might tweak in live performance. Oh - he has released them as user files for no charge.

 

I must admit that it would be nice to have a Moog Voyager as a third board, but I can't even persuade myself that I NEED it. For that matter, I could spend a year just learning enough about what I've already GOT in that two-board combi to really be able to use all the available possibilities.

 

[stevie b]

Thanks for sharing. The Vast with those controls and sven's comments regarding the KB3 mode really make me consider the upgrade from the PC2X to a PC3

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I have kept my PC2X (it is the family "piano" in the living room), and PC2 (left at church along with amplification - I carry the NE3 lots of times, but it is nice if there is a time bind or really lousy weather not to have to load anything in, besides I have the Classic ROM in it). At present, they are worth more to me where they are than I can sell them for.

 

But - they don't sound like the PC3, and the OS on the PC3 is more like the OS on the K series - much deeper editing. Just the fact that I can load OS enhancements in a couple of minutes using either USB or xD card, compared to having to spend 30 to 45 minutes reloading on the PC2. I can also easily dump a MIDI sequence to the PC3 and have it remembered in non-volatile memory. It is like a totally different instrument from the PC2 in operation.

 

[AnotherScott]

That group of assigned controllers is probably quite sufficient for anything that one might tweak in live performance.

 

It's a useful setup, and it's great that the Kurz lets you basically assign any function to any control, but to me, if you're into analog stuff, it's still just not enough control. It's not a matter of just having enough knobs assigned in advance for anything you might tweak in live performance (and I'd agree that for many/most people, the Kurz approach will usually probably provide enough of that), but rather for off-stage use, for sound creation and development, it's really nice to have the immediacy of instant access to a much wider range of parameters.

 

I understand that there are issues of cost and of panel space, and there are plenty of compromises that I can deal with. Like instead of 8 envelope knobs for ADSR (4 for filter, 4 for VCA), I'm okay with 4 knobs plus a switch to toggle them between VCA and VCF, that kind of thing. But I think about a dozen knobs plus some switches to alter their functions is about the minimum for a synth that is more satisfying then frustrating if you're actually into more than just tweaking the presets.

 

it would be nice to have a Moog Voyager as a third board, but I can't even persuade myself that I NEED it. For that matter, I could spend a year just learning enough about what I've already GOT

 

Case in point... someone could probably learn more about analog synthesis in a day with a Moog Voyager than they could in weeks on a Kurzweil, and have a lot more fun doing it, just because you can grab knobs instead of going through menu after menu. (Though it's also true that the Kurzweil VAST system allows you to take it places a Moog Voyager can't go.)

 

I guess I'd compare it to imagining a clonewheel that only had one drawbar, plus a selector which could vary which of the 9 tones the drawbar would affect at any given time. Sure, you *could* create any drawbar registration that way, but it would be tedious... and if you didn't already have a good idea in your head of what each drawbar would do to the sound in advance, it would be very difficult to get the results you wanted. If you want to *learn* how the drawbars affect the sound, you really need to have them all available at once. Otherwise I think it would be largely an exercise in frustration.

[ProfD]

I understand the desire to keep the rig down to (2) KBs but adding a Mopho to the mix doesn't really increase the footprint.

 

But, here is the real skinny...

 

Realizing the B&B (bread and butter) sounds in the PC2X are good enough for most gigs, you will eventually just carry the PC2X and MoPho or a similar synth.

[AnotherScott]

I understand the desire to keep the rig down to (2) KBs but adding a Mopho to the mix doesn't really increase the footprint.

 

If you mean the Mopho module, it has too few knobs. If you mean the Mopho keyboard, it's too big... i.e. you have to either have a three tier stand, or some kind of mounting bracket, or bring along an extra X-stand or something. And getting a stand that is stable for playing something so small is another trick.

 

I'm not saying those scenarios are impossible, I'm just saying that these are the kinds of "unnecessary" issues and compromises that I think the OP is trying to avoid.

 

But, here is the real skinny...

 

Realizing the B&B (bread and butter) sounds in the PC2X are good enough for most gigs, you will eventually just carry the PC2X and MoPho or a similar synth.

 

That's missing another important qualification of the original premise... you don't have a good feeling keyboard for organ playing there. You're left with the choice of having to play organ on a fully-weighted keyboard or a 32 note keyboard! Try palm-swiping on either one of those...

[Sven Golly]

It's a useful setup, and it's great that the Kurz lets you basically assign any function to any control, but to me, if you're into analog stuff, it's still just not enough control.

 

Scott, be reasonable; the discussion was an integrated clonewheel + synth. Anyone that's willing to integrate both of those into a single unit is going to be a non-purist anyway. That, or they're a realist that understands that they're making sacrifices/comprimises for the lighter & more compact gig rig. That person will (should) be willing to do some prep work before the gig to get their sounds in order.

 

Otherwise, man up and get the 3rd board that does the job properly.

 

YMMV, as always.

[AnotherScott]

Scott, be reasonable; the discussion was an integrated clonewheel + synth. Anyone that's willing to integrate both of those into a single unit is going to be a non-purist anyway. That, or they're a realist that understands that they're making sacrifices/comprimises for the lighter & more compact gig rig.

 

The OP's point, which I think is a valid one, is that there don't *have* to be such substantial compromises, yet the choices are indeed very limited. The Nord Stage doesn't have a lot of competition here.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

It's a useful setup, and it's great that the Kurz lets you basically assign any function to any control, but to me, if you're into analog stuff, it's still just not enough control. It's not a matter of just having enough knobs assigned in advance for anything you might tweak in live performance (and I'd agree that for many/most people, the Kurz approach will usually probably provide enough of that), but rather for off-stage use, for sound creation and development, it's really nice to have the immediacy of instant access to a much wider range of parameters.

 

Yes - for OFF stage use, definitely. My first synth was a Prophet 600 (in the 80's, when they were new). I could purchase a Behringer (yeah, I know) BCR2000 and have all the added knobs needed, for a lot less $$$, create and develop the sounds from VAST or VA in the Kurz - then save them, and use them live without the BCR2000 by assigning the needed parameters to the sliders on the PC3. Again - keeping it down to two keyboards maximum for gigging, and getting more use out of boards that I already own.

 

Case in point... someone could probably learn more about analog synthesis in a day with a Moog Voyager than they could in weeks on a Kurzweil, and have a lot more fun doing it, just because you can grab knobs instead of going through menu after menu. (Though it's also true that the Kurzweil VAST system allows you to take it places a Moog Voyager can't go.)

 

That is an aspect I had not even thought of - and that aspect does significantly push my desire for a Voyager a bit more toward NEED instead of want.

 

 

 

[ProfD]

But, here is the real skinny...

 

Realizing the B&B (bread and butter) sounds in the PC2X are good enough for most gigs, you will eventually just carry the PC2X and MoPho or a similar synth.

 

That's missing another important qualification of the original premise... you don't have a good feeling keyboard for organ playing there. You're left with the choice of having to play organ on a fully-weighted keyboard or a 32 note keyboard! Try palm-swiping on either one of those...

It doesn't address the original premise. But, it is realistic.

 

Unless one is a purist, all sounds can be played from a weighted or unweighted KB.

 

Just a matter of getting to that age or point in life whichever comes first.

[AnotherScott]

I would be totally content with a two board rig with piano, Rhodes, wurly on the bottom weighted board (easy to find) and a dedicated top keyboard with organ and synth (elusive)

The closest contenders for this top board are probably the Nord E3, Compact, and PC3

The E3 lacks the real synth controls such as joystick, sweep, and filter controls. It also lacks splits and the low E for bass. The compact has splits, but lacks the flash memory compatibility with the E3 and Wave libraries.

 

Hey, I think I have a solution for you!

 

Make your *bottom* keyboard a Nord Stage... a 76 or an 88. Make your top keyboard a Nord Wave. Set your Stage so that its organ is triggered from the Wave rather than from its internal keyboard. I think this gives you everything you asked for, except that the organ keyboard is limited to 49 keys instead of 61, which is probably pretty workable especially since the Stage also can function as a second organ manual.

 

All problems solved. Real synth controls (better than on the Stage itself!), low E for bass, plenty of split capability, weighted keys for piano and unweighted for organ+synth, plus the flash memory for sample libraries. And surprisingly little redundancy. The only overlap is that both boards have synths. But that can actually be useful. It means a synth is still available to you even when you're using the Wave for its samples, for example.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sven Golly]

Scott, be reasonable; the discussion was an integrated clonewheel + synth. Anyone that's willing to integrate both of those into a single unit is going to be a non-purist anyway. That, or they're a realist that understands that they're making sacrifices/comprimises for the lighter & more compact gig rig.

 

The OP's point, which I think is a valid one, is that there don't *have* to be such substantial compromises, yet the choices are indeed very limited. The Nord Stage doesn't have a lot of competition here.

 

Sure, there don't HAVE to be, but there ARE. We can sit here and dream about fluffy clouds and free beer all day long, or we can get on with the reality of making music with the gear that exists today.

 

Yours curmudgeonly,

Sven Golly

 

[Tonysounds]

I would be totally content with a two board rig with piano, Rhodes, wurly on the bottom weighted board (easy to find) and a dedicated top keyboard with organ and synth (elusive)

The closest contenders for this top board are probably the Nord E3, Compact, and PC3

The E3 lacks the real synth controls such as joystick, sweep, and filter controls. It also lacks splits and the low E for bass. The compact has splits, but lacks the flash memory compatibility with the E3 and Wave libraries.

 

Hey, I think I have a solution for you!

 

Make your *bottom* keyboard a Nord Stage... a 76 or an 88. Make your top keyboard a Nord Wave. Set your Stage so that its organ is triggered from the Wave rather than from its internal keyboard. I think this gives you everything you asked for, except that the organ keyboard is limited to 49 keys instead of 61, which is probably pretty workable especially since the Stage also can function as a second organ manual.

 

All problems solved. Real synth controls (better than on the Stage itself!), low E for bass, plenty of split capability, weighted keys for piano and unweighted for organ+synth, plus the flash memory for sample libraries. And surprisingly little redundancy. The only overlap is that both boards have synths. But that can actually be useful. It means a synth is still available to you even when you're using the Wave for its samples, for example.

 

YUCK. Have you ever played a Nord Wave? Not enough keys for organ work, and the keyboard on it is terrible for just about everything. I love the capability of the machine, just dont love its keyboard.

[AnotherScott]

Unless one is a purist, all sounds can be played from a weighted or unweighted KB.

 

Of course. But that doesn't mean that all sounds can be played *well* from either a weighted or unweighted keyboard. And I don't think you have to be a purist to recognize the very real limitations.

 

You really can't play properly expressive piano on a synth action keyboard. You just don't have enough control over the dynamics. (Though of course, if all you're playing is Jerry Lee Lewis style rock-and-roll, this might not matter.)

 

You really can't use use a lot of organ technique on a weighted keyboard (at least not without bleeding). Some stuff is just plain impossible, the keys don't come back up fast enough. And the quickest runs just can't be played as quickly.

 

Can you get through a gig? Sure. But like people are talking about in the "Is the Effort Worth It" thread, if you can't play well (to your own satisfaction) on the gear, there's not much point, unless you're only playing for the paycheck.

 

I'm not ruling out the possibility that one could find a keyboard that one finds acceptable for both. First, there may be a few, rare boards that might actually be at least reasonably good at both (see recent thread about Vax77, for example), but most boards will not fall into this category. Second, many players focus primarily on one--either piano or organ--and only need to occasionally "get by" on the other, so the compromises of the "wrong" board don't affect them much. Or third, some people's repertoires (or their skill levels) simply don't demand real expressiveness in their piano playing or various "aggressive" techniques (for lack of a better word) in their organ playing. But for lots of people--even non-purists--I think it's a very real issue.

[stevie b]

Yep, just as I thought. No one is really making this org-synth combo clone, the compact comes close but no cigar.

 

There are some good suggestins here, but each is still a compromise. Some of two board combinations suggested here offer an even greater pallete of sounds, but sacrifice the key action or live controls. I still believe it could be done.

 

The Nord Wave has only 49 keys, and offers nice paramter controls. the organ section of the E3 seems small enough to combine with the wave onto a 76 key board, just add drawbars.

 

I guess the bottom line is the market. There is a ton of emphasis on the all in one.

 

Lear Jeff had a good concept in a thread a while back. The modular board. A well made keybed with different action options and plug in modules for differet sounds. Kind of a VAX-77 with out the need for external hardware. The future awaits.

 

Meanwhile I'll ponder all the good suggestions in this thread, drink free beer, lay on my back and watch the clouds go by while kicking some cool mopho sounds. Where's the battery pack?

 

[ProfD]

Adding a Mopho to the current mix is a lot cheaper than any Nord solution.

[AnotherScott]

YUCK. Have you ever played a Nord Wave? Not enough keys for organ work, and the keyboard on it is terrible for just about everything. I love the capability of the machine, just dont love its keyboard.

 

Remember that many real tonewheel hammonds (like the M3) had 44 keys on each manual. 49 on top with the full 61 note range on bottom sounds pretty workable to me.

 

I find the Wave keyboard perfectly acceptable. In fact, at the moment, I happen to have a Nord Wave and an Electro 3 here. So I just MIDI'd them up so I could use the Wave to trigger the E3's organ, and went back and forth with each keyboard playing the identical sound. I found the difference in feel to be minimal. Technically, I could say I have a small preference for the E3's shorter throw, and a small preference for the Wave's lighter touch, but they are so close in playability that switching back and forth did not affect my playing, I could do everything I wanted perfectly well on either.

[AnotherScott]

There are some good suggestins here, but each is still a compromise. Some of two board combinations suggested here offer an even greater pallete of sounds, but sacrifice the key action or live controls.

 

I think the weighted Stage + Wave combo has no compromise apart from having 49 vs 61 keys for "one manual" of the organ (albeit the unweighted manual). However, while I think the Wave action is just fine, (a) I've never played a weighted Stage and don't know the quality of its action first-hand, and (b) you would need to play them for yourself anyway, because as you can see, it's very easy for people to disagree about key action!

[AnotherScott]

Adding a Mopho to the current mix is a lot cheaper than any Nord solution.

 

Ah, you're adding the variable of price, that's a whole other conversation. :-) Really, apart from the obvious way-high price of the Oasys, we have treated everything as equally viable, but of course, budget might be a concern. My suggestion of a Stage and Wave is still a pretty hefty $5,600 to $5,900, though at least it fulfills all the needs. (The Oasys $7500 still left him without a weighted board, so figure at least another $500 for that.)

 

Though a Mopho keyboard is not quite a Wave. Single-timbre monophonic vs. Dual-timbre polyphonic, no sample loading, short keyboard... different beast, but yeah, the Mopho is a nice piece and a reasonably priced "third keyboard" if the logistics work.

[stevie b]

Ahh! isn't money always an issue?, But, fair enough since I never mentioned it.

 

The Wave + E3 is an interesting concept. Especially with the flash. The 49 would probably work for most organ work especially with the compact organ as the lower.

 

Oasys would definitly do it it all. I checked the specs and couldn't determine the action of the 76. (just in case I ever saw a basement bargain). I've never seen one in person.

 

The Mopho looks really tempting and I bet a lot of fun, I would really like polyphony but it's still tempting considering the price. My VR760 with the SRX has a decent poly synth for pads and OB type stuff.

 

Now would the Mopho go on the right side or left... Leads or Basses? another conundrum ???

 

Now I need a third tier with sliders. - Maybe Not

 

I have'nt been to the music store in a while - lot's of ideas

[ProfD]

Though a Mopho keyboard is not quite a Wave. Single-timbre monophonic vs. Dual-timbre polyphonic, no sample loading, short keyboard... different beast, but yeah, the Mopho is a nice piece and a reasonably priced "third keyboard" if the logistics work.

Since Stevie would like a polyphonic synth, maybe the Roland Gaia or a Blofeld (buggy OS) would fit the bill for less than a grand. I haven't played the Gaia but the Blofeld sounds good and it feels solidly built.

 

Of course, that is predicated on my premise of using (2) KBs, PC2X and a synth with the option of bringing a third (VR760). Decisions.

[AnotherScott]

The Wave + E3 is an interesting concept. Especially with the flash. The 49 would probably work for most organ work especially with the compact organ as the lower.

 

Wave + Stage 76 (or 88) is much better than Wave + E3. First, because you want weighted keys somewhere. Second, because you get the low E. Third, because you can layer/split in many more ways. Fourth, because the biggest advantage the E3 has over the Stage is the sample loading, and you don't need that there if you have it in the Wave. (That said, the E3 is cheaper, lighter, and does have a better organ in it.)

 

Oasys would definitly do it it all. I checked the specs and couldn't determine the action of the 76. (just in case I ever saw a basement bargain).

 

76 key version is unweighted.

[stevie b]

Wave + Stage 76 (or 88) is much better than Wave + E3. First, because you want weighted keys somewhere. Second, because you get the low E. Third, because you can layer/split in many more ways. Fourth, because the biggest advantage the E3 has over the Stage is the sample loading, and you don't need that there if you have it in the

 

Oops! I meant to type Stage because of all the reasons you state above.

 

Another interesting slant would be keep the PC2X on bottom, add an electro 3 on top. It has alot of space on the right side since all the controls are on the left. Place a Mopho module or keyboard just above it on the vacant right side. The only drawback on the Mopho module would be the lack of joystick controls on the E3.

This would be less expensive than the other options and the E3 libraries would probably be ample for the poly pads, strings, etc.

I would gain a flash drive with the E3 and could ditch the Sonic cell.

I could probably sell the sonic cell to offset the Mopho cost. Sell the VR-760 to help with the E3 cost and basically be putting out around $1000.00

 

Might be the way to go.

[AnotherScott]

 

The only drawback on the Mopho module would be the lack of joystick controls on the E3.

 

A little more than that really... there are really no expressive synth controls on an E3 at all. No pitch bend, no mod wheel, no aftertouch... there is an expression pedal that would probably be usable, though. You can't stop it from also controlling organ volume, but you could call up a drawbar setting of 000000000 so it wouldn't matter. :-)

 

The secondary drawback of the Mopho module is that there aren't many real-time tweakable knobs.

 

This would be less expensive than the other options and the E3 libraries would probably be ample for the poly pads, strings, etc.

 

Just remember that the E3 is monotimbral, no splits or driving second sounds from another keyboard (except for additional organ sounds). So when you're using it for strings and such, it's not available for organ.

 

[Maestro Dirk]

Depending on how in-depth you wanted your synth sounds to be, a Moogerfooger MF-101 LPF behind an E3 might get the job done. Load up polysynth sample of your choice, use the envelope settings on the Nord and use the Moog filter for sweeps, etc.

 

 

[stevie b]

Something like the Moog effects may work to "make due".

 

I liked the idea of the mopho also, but my current top board (VR760) does not allow splitting the outputs and I use it just as much if not more for organ. I almost ready to order the ventilator to improve the Combo organ. I have heard good results on the VK8m, and assume the VR760 has basically the same organ.

 

I need to to dig a little depper into the controller assignments on my PC2x It looks like I can assign a slider control as a low pass filter, and another for resonance. I will try this out on some of the synth samples and see where it leads me. I wish it had a simple saw tooth sound. It has some moog sounds.

 

The search continues.

[carter_]

Digging out this old thread . . . I read it with agreement in 2010 and... 10 years on, still feel the same but kind of thinking this organ/synth combo just might not happen!

 

Been considering upgrading my live rig and like stevie b, have the same ideal setup:

 

top - 61 (or less) un/semi-weighted (preferably waterfall) keys organ with drawbars + synth (knobs+pitch/mod wheels)

 

bottom - great weighted digital piano

 

Just two boards - no modules/computers.

 

(Current setup:

top - Nord Electro 2

bottom - Nord Piano (sometime swap with the E3 HP 73)

no synth... (:

)

 

As was noted in the posts above, the Stage Compact as top board comes close and I may end up going that route.

 

Still very much agree with stevie b's original sentiment though!

 

Carter

[Stokely]

Some things never change no matter how the years go by

 

My big conundrum has always been organ vs synth vs all-rounder (piano) ....and WITH some level of redundancy WITHOUT having to bring out three keyboards, and without extra laptop or anything else as you say.

 

I just listed my Electro today on the classifieds--I love the keyboard but want more synth capability and that pushed me over the edge to decide to get a Stage Compact, can't afford that without selling the Electro!

[carter_]

Selling an Electro for a Stage Compact - just for the synth . . . exactly what I'm contemplating!