Organ clone +Synth ????

[stevie b]

The recent post regarding the VR-760 has me pondering this question again.

 

Why doesn't anyone make an organ clone with a real good synth section?

 

It doesnt appear most players are content with un-weighted keys for piano and weighted keys for organ. I know I am not.

I would be totally content with a two board rig with piano, Rhodes, wurly on the bottom weighted board (easy to find) and a dedicated top keyboard with organ and synth (elusive)

The closest contenders for this top board are probably the Nord E3, Compact, and PC3

The E3 lacks the real synth controls such as joystick, sweep, and filter controls. It also lacks splits and the low E for bass. The compact has splits, but lacks the flash memory compatibility with the E3 and Wave libraries. The PC3 has great Vast technology, but lacking in organ from what I hear. None have drawbars.

I currently have a PC2x as my bottom board, and Im happy with playing Piano, Rhodes, Wurly, etc. on this board. I currently use a VR-760 as the top board. I have a usable organ and a minimal snyth. I have loaded the SRX-07 expansion which makes it useable. It could be a lot better if I had more real time synth controls and sample capability. I really would like to avoid external modules and computers.

 

Ultimately this top boards key bed would have the ability to trigger high on the organ parts and lower on the synth parts.

I imagine a keyboard like this could fit easily in a lightweight package. Picture the Nord wave + the electro organ. Skip the piano / electro mechanical section since they are covered by the bottom board.

 

Is there just no market for such a thing ?? It seems most companies are after the all in one, which doesnt seem possible because of the weighted vs. unweighted issue.

 

[CEB]

It might work now with the leslie sims that are available taday.

 

But before I would not have used such a thing unless there were seperate output sections because I run my clones through leslies but not my synths.

 

 

[AnotherScott]

The closest contenders for this top board are probably the Nord E3, Compact, and PC3

 

I agree that organ+synth is a more suitable combo than organ+piano due to the weighted vs. unweighted keyboard issue.

 

You're right that the E3 doesn't really make your cut, and not just for the reasons you gave. It really has no real synth capability at all, the closest you can get is to load samples of specific synth sounds, but that's not the same thing.

 

I think the Nord Stage Compact does make the cut. Your list of "why it doesn't" really is a list of things that could be *better* but nonetheless, as it stands, it is very much what you asked for, an organ clone with a good synth section, complete with layers/splits, pitch bend, mod wheel, aftertouch. I wish it had sample loading too. But your premise wasn't "why doesn't anyone make an organ clone with a good synth section and sample loader?" :-)

 

The Kurzweil to look at would probably be the PC361, based on its keyboard action. It's 9 sliders can be used as drawbars, and according to message 2201210, the organ sounds will be improved in the next OS update.

[stevie b]

Thanks For the coments A-Scott

 

I think the Nord Stage Compact does make the cut.

 

I left out that I am currently using a Sonic Cell to make up for the samples. It has a large quantity of Wave and other files and good editting via software. If I wait a little longer I am hoping the next version of the compact will have the improved flash and share libraries with the E3 and Wave.

With that improvement I could sell the Sonic Cell and VR-760 and be well on the way to a new Stage Compact.

 

Or maybe Korg will read my post and combine the Radias and CX3.!!!

[NewImprov]

I think the OP is really on to something here conceptually. A weighted 88 key and an unweighted 61 can cover just about any live situation. The 88 can be acoustic or any flavor of electric piano. The unweighted can be Hammond, synth, clav, combo organ, mellotron, whatever. When I was running a strictly software setup live, this was pretty much how I had my rig configured, and one button press on the upper keyboard would change the entire configuration.

[Jim Alfredson]

I use an XK3 + Motif ES rack. The XK3 has pitch and mod wheels, the action is nice, and it works well with the Motif.

[bloodyMary]

why not use an organ alone with a synth module like a Novation?

Or that cheap vst player box, I'm sure it's capable of running the VB3 plus the V-station.

[Clifton]

I use an XK3 + Motif ES rack. The XK3 has pitch and mod wheels, the action is nice, and it works well with the Motif.

 

I've seen you do that in some of your Root Doctor vids, how do you play a Rhodes (or any kind of piano sound for that matter) on a Hammond action? That would drive me nuts.

That said, for synth sounds the Clonewheel + Rackmount would certainly do the trick. However if your bottom board is a ROMpler already, you might be better of with just a synth rackmount, NL2 Rack for example.

 

I think the Nord Stage Compact does make the cut. Your list of "why it doesn't" really is a list of things that could be *better* but nonetheless, as it stands, it is very much what you asked for, an organ clone with a good synth section, complete with layers/splits, pitch bend, mod wheel, aftertouch. I wish it had sample loading too. But your premise wasn't "why doesn't anyone make an organ clone with a good synth section and sample loader?" :-)

 

Very true. Compact is right on the money, but I can't blame you for being hesitant to buy it before Nord updates the damn thing thing to allow samples. Why the NE3 is more powerful than their flagship model I have no idea.

[Jim Alfredson]

I like the action of the XK3 better than the Electro2, that's for sure. Better for organ & Rhodes. The XK3 actually feels pretty good for Rhodes type sounds; not weighted obviously, but it's not a synth action, either. You should try it sometime.

 

I come from a synth background so playing piano on an un-weighted action isn't a deal breaker to me, though obviously not ideal. The key is to set up the velocity curve correctly.

[stevie b]

why not use an organ alone with a synth module like a Novation?

Or that cheap vst player box, I'm sure it's capable of running the VB3 plus the V-station.

 

I would prefer the idead of a rack mount synth module with real time controls rather than something that requires navigating through menus to adjust or playing presets which are created away from band pratice.

I currently use a sonic cell which has the editting capabilites, but no real time control without a computer.

 

I have comtemplated going the other direction and using a dedicated synth to a Hammond organ module with the drawbars.

I took out my old Korg X2 which is old , but has good action for a synth. I midied this to my VR-760 in organ mode to compare the action. It was lacking the response of the quick firing action on the VR-760.

 

Back to the premise;

Good pianos clones are made.

Organ clones are made.

Dedicated Synths are made.

All in one keyboards are made, but the weighted vs. unweighted is constantly going to be an issue.

 

Why don't we have options consisting an organ clone with a real synth with good real time controls ?

Does every combination keyboard have to have piano?

 

I believe a simple setup could consist of a dedicated piano on bottom and this organ clone synth on top.

No modules, computers, etc.

[CEB]

The Hammond B-3000 had a built in synthesizer thingy. Tons of home organs had synth generators. It is an old concept.

 

The problem has been you would have needed segregated outputs because leslie sims suck. But now I think your idea would work.

[jook]

Will this do you?

 

[video:youtube]

[AnotherScott]

why not use an organ alone with a synth module like a Novation?

 

What Novation synth module?

 

But yes, any combination can be put together with modules. You can add drawbar organ to anything with a Roland VK-8M or a Voce. You can add piano to anything with a SonicCell or any of a whole slew of other modules. And there are standalone analog synth modules you can add.

 

Still, there are benefits to a single board... convenience, simplicity, consistent interface, feature integration, easy access to everything, quick setup, minimal wiring...so I think the OP has a point, that this is a desirable combination that is hard to find. And I suppose it's because, in general, almost all keyboard players need (or are at least comfortable using) piano, organ, and strings, but only a smaller portion care about analog sounds, and only a still smaller portion care about all the knob-twiddling needed to do it right (as opposed to just calling up the sample for Jump).

 

But to get back to the add-on module issue, actually, trying to address analog synth with an add-on module can be problematic because you really want lots of controls at your fingertips. So you're likely to end up with some major compromises if the capabilities are not built into the keyboard. Look at the cool analog synth keyboards... Gaia, Mopho, Wave, Radias, Prophet, Virus, Voyager, Evolver... where do you put all those knobs on an add-on module? So the add-on modules often end up severely handicapped by having relatively few knobs and/or they end up very large where they are going to be awkward to place for convenient live access.

 

The module combination can be cumbersome in reverse as well, if you wanted to add drawbar organ to one of those nice analog synth keyboards. You probably want 61 keys, which means your choice of analog synths to purchase is very limited. And their panels are usually packed, with no place to mount a VK-8M or Voce, so again you have to deal with the issue of where to put it, easily accessible for live performance, stable enough to handle quick one-handed drawbar manipulations.

 

If you're really into synths, you want the knobs built into the keyboard in order to have enough of them and to have them where you want them, and I think the OP is right that it would be logistically nice to have drawbars in the same unit, and it does seem particularly sensible since the keyboard actions are pretty compatible between the two functions. But apart from the Nord Stage and maybe Kurzweil PC361, the only options are to consider the logistical issues with modules, or buy a second keyboard.

 

EDIT: The issue with the PC361 is that it's kind of all in there, but not quite. The KB3 organ mode isn't as good as the better clonewheels (though there is supposed to be a software update coming to improve it), and while the synth capabilities are extensive, the knob interface to really "enjoy" that functionality is lacking.

 

[AnotherScott]

I like the action of the XK3 better than the Electro2, that's for sure.

 

Is the XK3 action the same as the XK1 action?

[AnotherScott]

The M3 as you show is interesting... you could add an EXB-Radias card, but for knob access, it would be better to add the Radias-R. The 73-key version of the M3 would be the one to go with, since the 61-key version can't hold the Radias-R and the 88-key version has weighted keys.

 

But better still, I completely forgot about the Korg Oasys 76. It has the Korg CX-3 organ essentially built into it, and the Radias, and the kitchen sink. That would be the single best choice in terms of functionality, if you could deal with the 56 pound weight and the $7500 price tag.

[Tomkeen]

I saw the thread title and could only think of this:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4030/4627657302_d7dbc1ea36.jpg

 

Doesn't weigh anything and it sounds great.

 

[JMcS]

I like the action of the XK3 better than the Electro2, that's for sure.

 

Is the XK3 action the same as the XK1 action?

 

No.

 

The XK-3/3c has the same proprietary keyboard as the New B3/New B3 MkII (but without the 9 contacts). The XK-1 uses a keyboard mfgd. by Fatar.

[AnotherScott]

I saw the thread title and could only think of this:

 

Doesn't weigh anything and it sounds great.

 

Yeah, the E3 and a Wave is a nice combination, and the two together weigh less than a lot of single keyboards, The big limitation is that you still don't have a keyboard that feels great for playing piano.

 

So I think I'd knock that E3 down to a 61-key version (I prefer keyboards that end at high C for organ playing anyway), and add a Privia PX-3 on bottom.

 

In fact, I currently own these three keyboards, and this is one of the configs I am thinking about making my main rig. It is surprisingly tricky to get everything in fewer than three keyboards!

 

I could possibly replace the E3 with a Voce V5, probably mounting it on the top left of the PX-3 while triggering it from the Wave, though that reduces the organ to 49 keys, and still may leave me wanting for some of the other E3 sounds...

[AnotherScott]

why not use an organ alone with a synth module

 

One more problem with that... Organ keyboards don't have aftertouch, and often lack for pitch and/or mod wheels, so your synth expressivity is further limited...

[Tomkeen]

Yeah, the E3 and a Wave is a nice combination, and the two together weigh less than a lot of single keyboards, The big limitation is that you still don't have a keyboard that feels great for playing piano.

 

It's a Lead 2x, not a Wave. But the Wave would probably be an even better (and more expensive) choice. Personally, I don't mind playing piano on the E3 keybed.

[Sven Golly]

The PC3 has great Vast technology, but lacking in organ from what I hear. None have drawbars.

 

The KB3 mode in the PC3 is great, and the sliders on the board do act as drawbars in KB3 mode. It's the Leslie sim that is lacking, IMO, which is why I'm (eventually going to get around to) using my Ventilator pedal with my PC3. I've been too busy with gigs and sessions this month to devote any time to reprogramming the PC3 to route the KB3 mode patces out the aux output with no Leslie effects... but I have a good feeling about the end result.

 

Anyway, just needed to correct you about your misunderstanding about the PC3.

 

What Novation synth module?

 

The A-Station, Bass Station, Super Bass Station, Nova, Supernova II, shall I go on?

 

I would prefer the idead of a rack mount synth module with real time controls rather than something that requires navigating through menus to adjust or playing presets which are created away from band pratice.

 

Then the Novations above fit the bill to varying degrees...

 

All in one keyboards are made, but the weighted vs. unweighted is constantly going to be an issue.

 

Until someone does something to alter physics, yep.

 

Why don't we have options consisting an organ clone with a real synth with good real time controls ?

 

Because the vast majority of the clonewheel market are only searching for the holy tonewheel grail, they don't need/care about a kick-ass synth section, so it's an added cost/expense that only serves to reduce sales overall.

 

Does every combination keyboard have to have piano?

 

There are more people searching for a great piano sound to fall back on than a great organ sound, so I'd say this is like asking if every car needs rubber tires. Yes.

 

I believe a simple setup could consist of a dedicated piano on bottom and this organ clone synth on top.

No modules, computers, etc.

 

What you need to understand is that one man's synth is another man's overly complex system. At what point does enough knobs become enough? If you're dedicating panel space to drawbars and other clonewheel-related controls, what synth controls do you omit and still satisfy that 1% of the 1% of the market that's looking for the ultimate synth with the ultimate clonewheel in one box?

 

IMO, just grab yourself a Mopho Keyboard and call it a day. Just my opinion, of course.

[AnotherScott]

It's a Lead 2x, not a Wave. But the Wave would probably be an even better (and more expensive) choice.

 

Ah, yes. So in your case, the E3 is also your source for all the Nord Sample Library sounds. If the top piece were a Wave, you'd have that functionality there. That's one of the things that might make the E3 a little more "expendable" in my alternate scenario.

[stevie b]

Thanks for all the good suggestions!

 

The KB3 mode in the PC3 is great, and the sliders on the board do act as drawbars in KB3 mode. It's the Leslie sim that is lacking, /quote]

 

They must have improved the KB3 quite a bit. I use the PC2X and believe it's just OK.

Your right, the Leslie similator is the weakest part.

The ventilator looks very tempting. It may be good enough to make me keep the VR-760.

 

A 76 OASYS - now there is something I've never considered. I did not realize it had the CX3 organ under the hood. It would be nice, but I think better win the lotto before considering that one.

 

the compact still looks like my top contender without changing the bottom board also. I think I'll wait a little and see if they make the flash improvements live the E3.

 

Thanks

 

 

[AnotherScott]

What Novation synth module?

 

The A-Station, Bass Station, Super Bass Station, Nova, Supernova II, shall I go on?

 

I've never really followed Novation, but unless I'm mistaken, none of those are current products, and they don't currently make a standalone synth module.

 

But if we're talking about used products you can pick up, I just grabbed a Yamaha AN200 I'm looking forward to playing with. Quite compact, especially for something with the number of knobs and buttons it has. I don't see stuff like this around anymore.

 

All in one keyboards are made, but the weighted vs. unweighted is constantly going to be an issue.

 

Until someone does something to alter physics, yep.

 

I'm really curious to try the VAX77, which people here seem to find unexpectedly good for piano, yet seems to be of a design that might be surprisingly suitable for organ as well.

[frogmonkey]

Sven already said it, but I bet the PC3's organ would sound great through the Ventilator.

[Sven Golly]

The KB3 mode in the PC3 is great, and the sliders on the board do act as drawbars in KB3 mode. It's the Leslie sim that is lacking,

 

They must have improved the KB3 quite a bit. I use the PC2X and believe it's just OK.

 

Oh God, forget everything you know about the PC2X KB3 mode, and check out a PC3 in person.

 

Your right, the Leslie similator is the weakest part.

 

True of every workstation on the market, and a good many clonewheels too.

 

The ventilator looks very tempting. It may be good enough to make me keep the VR-760.

 

It's good enough that I'm hanging on to my VK8 (the budget was down to a new MacBook Pro or the XK-3c; now the MBP is squarely in my fiscal sights. ).

 

 

[Sven Golly]

What Novation synth module?

 

The A-Station, Bass Station, Super Bass Station, Nova, Supernova II, shall I go on?

 

I've never really followed Novation, but unless I'm mistaken, none of those are current products, and they don't currently make a standalone synth module.

 

Nope, but if it's an analog-style synth you're after, "current" is something of a misnomer, no?

 

But if we're talking about used products you can pick up, I just grabbed a Yamaha AN200 I'm looking forward to playing with. Quite compact, especially for something with the number of knobs and buttons it has. I don't see stuff like this around anymore.

 

Yep, the AN200 is a good one as well; I've got the PLG-150AN board in my Motif ES and am pretty happy with it (aside from the PITA programming ).

 

 

[AnotherScott]

Nope, but if it's an analog-style synth you're after, "current" is something of a misnomer, no?

 

There are a decent number of analog-style synth modules currently in production. The problem is that, as I said, most of them are either light on real knobs (Tetra, Mopho, Blofeld, Plugiator) and/or they are too big to be easily placed for live use in conjunction with a keyboard (Access Virus TI2, Minimoog Voyager RME, Nord Lead 2X Rack).

 

I'm always hesitant to suggest out-of-production stuff when people ask for recommendations, unless there simply is nothing current available. Not everyone is up for going the eBay route, and not everything is always available at a decent price in good condition. It can take patience to find what you want, and typically you can't return it if you're not happy with it,

 

That said, if someone wants drawbars and analog style synth by combining a single keyboard and a module, I think I'd go with a Hammond XK1 and the Yamaha AN200 (or maybe some of those Novation models you mentioned would be suitable, I'm not familiar with them). The XK1 is more suitable than most clonewheels because at least it gives you a pitch wheel and a mod wheel. The Yamaha has got lots of knobs, and there's enough space above/behind the XK1 drawbars that some velcro should keep it in place just fine.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

They must have improved the KB3 quite a bit. I use the PC2X and believe it's just OK.

Your right, the Leslie similator is the weakest part.

 

I own both a PC2 and PC3 (and X of each) - There is a CONSIDERABLE improvement in the KB3 on the PC3 (I used to own a K2661 - the KB3 on that was no where near as good as on the PC2). I've tried shutting off the Lwelie effect completely and running through the Auxiliary outputs - got a very decent Hammond sound.

 

I do prefer my Electro 3 for Hammond/Lesie at the moment, but the PC3 is getting there. I'm looking forward to any changes made in the next OS release.

 

At some point, I will likely purchase a Neo Ventilator, shut off the Leslie effect on BOTH the PC3 and the NE3, and let the Ventilator produce my Leslie effect for either board.

 

Personally, I am well pleased with the combination of the two boards. I believe in carrying enough gear, but not too much gear, for any particular situation. The Nord's biggest attraction is its weight (or lack of weight - 73 key, 17 pounds).

The PC3 gives me multi-timbral sounds, a powerful MIDI controller and sequencer, some of the best orchestral, string, vintage, and VA sounds available. If I really need solo piano, I can carry the PC3X instead of the PC3.

 

BTW, I run the stuff through one or a pair of QSC K10's most of the time.

 

It has taken several years of purchasing (and selling some other stuff that didn't work out as well), but the process has paid off well.

[stevie b]

Personally, I am well pleased with the combination of the two boards. I believe in carrying enough gear, but not too much gear, for any particular situation. The Nord's biggest attraction is its weight (or lack of weight - 73 key, 17 pounds).

The PC3 gives me multi-timbral sounds, a powerful MIDI controller and sequencer, some of the best orchestral, string, vintage, and VA sounds available. If I really need solo piano, I can carry the PC3X instead of the PC3.

 

This does sound like a really nice combination of two boards. It somewhat lacks the real time synth controls, but with all of the Kurz assignable controllers it may be a mute point with a little selective setup editting.