So Long, Craig Anderton's SSS

[ricknbokker]

If what I read on the Bass Forum is correct, it looks like Craig's name will no longer be appearing in the title of this board. [url=http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=000850]www.musicplayer.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=000850[/url] Check out Tom Capasso's topic- "New Forum Name". for this bit of info and an accompanying rant from your's truly. Gee Craig, I certainly hope that MP hasn't decided to 'distance itself' from your excellent contributions to this, the best BB of it's kind in the world. We shall see... Steve [ 11-22-2001: Message edited by: ricknbokker ]

[Hippie]

NO!!

[ricknbokker]

[quote]Originally posted by Hippie: [b]NO!![/b][/quote] Oh yes. And although it's not much of a threat, if this kind of crap keeps up, I will be 'distancing' myself from this site, pronto. AND cancelling my subscriptions to GP and BP. I make it a point to click on the banner ads on this site regularly... if only to do my part in it's support. Until I get some answers on what the hell is going on around here... either here or on the Bass Forum, I won't be clicking on any more ads. Am I the only person here who is upset about this??! Steve (still ranting...)

[Hippie]

Steve, Most folks are probably getting the turkey prepped (where would I be without my wife? ;) ) and are unable to respond, -right now. This will not be a popular decision, if they 'off' our good friend, Craig. I'm with you, I will not support the ads on the site if this decision is against the will of Mr. Anderton. It is hard to find a site with so much integrity and lack of spam, that I believe is directly a result of the 'tone', Craig has put forth. We've already lost Chris and Ed, which hurt, but losing Craig will take the heart right out of this place. Let's hope even if Craig does have to go, he will still be a member here, and will be treated as an "elder statesman". We love you, man! I hope this is just a rumour. -Matt

[Tedster]

I'm just waiting for an official word...as I'm not going to jump to conclusions. ("Conclusions, MO" is a long way from here, and jumping there would not be feasible)... Hey, y'all have a happy turkey day. Mine's on Saturday.

[ricknbokker]

I don't hear anything about this not being Craig's forum anymore, but just that they want to remove his name from appearing in it's title. Perhaps it's no big thing, but combined with all of the other changes going on around here, it all adds up to a big wankfest, IMO. Thanksgiving indeed... I'm off to consume mass quantities. :) A happy holiday to all of you! Steve

[Hippie]

Call me cynical, but I gotta believe if they would remove his name from the forum, it says to me that the 'suits' do not value his association, and so...what else do they NOT value, him personally? see what I'm gettin' at? Ok, I may be jumping to conclusions...we'll see. 'nuff said. Matt

[Philip OKeefe]

Hmmm... I read the post linked above over at the bass forum, but to me it didn't seem like they were saying that ALL the forums would be changing their names. Maybe I missed something - certainly possible since I just woke up and have NOT had any of the nectar of life (coffee) yet. But if they're going to distance themselves from "known names", I think that would be a mistake from a marketing aspect. Lets face it, some of these forums are visited by many people because of the "famous" moderators... Ed, Chris (both gone), GM, Roger, David, Craig et al. Personally I'm not that starstruck, and while I appreciate the great resumes of these cats, I come here to hang with all of you as much or more than I do to hang with all of them.... But Craig, well, Craig's special, isn't he? Somehow, even though we're often treated like mushrooms concerning the inner workings of this place (which is perfectly understandable in one way, but diametrically opposed to the concept of this being "our place" in the other), I get the feeling that Craig had more than just a little bit to do with this whole concept of a BBS here. AND He had a huge group of loyal SSS members from the AOL days. I'm not panicing yet, and will wait for the official announcements / word from Craig before I do, but I'd be protesting ANYONE who disses Craig - including this site. Wanna support this site? Click through a few banners a few times a week. I do. But if the policies change in a way that I can not support, that action will stop. Hang in there Craig. Have a great Thanksgiving everyone! Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html NEW URL (Coming soon!) [url=http://www.ssrstudio.com]www.ssrstudio.com[/url] pokeefe777@msn.com

[Joe McDonough]

FYI: It's turkey day but I just happened upon this thread and thought I should respond since I know a little about your worries. I work for Musicplayer.com and know that although there have been changes at Ed Friedland's Bass Forum, this does NOT mean that Craig Anderton is leaving or GM, Nichols, or Dave F. for that matter. As Craig has said in other threads, changes in print and online happen all the time. However, if big changes happened here, we would announce them without speculation. We love all you guys and gals participating in what we hope are the most useful forums on the net. That is not what I am most thankful for today but it's close. Have a good one everybody!!! Joe McDonough MusicPlayer.com

[KHAN]

[img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s/cwm/survivor/all.gif[/img] [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s/cwm/survivor/all.gif[/img] [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s/cwm/survivor/all.gif[/img] [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s/cwm/survivor/all.gif[/img] [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s/cwm/survivor/all.gif[/img] [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s/cwm/survivor/all.gif[/img] [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s/cwm/survivor/all.gif[/img] [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s/cwm/survivor/all.gif[/img] [ 11-22-2001: Message edited by: KHAN ]

[Hippie]

Joe, Thanks for clearing that up, I feel much better. -Matt

[Anderton]

Hey, I just happened upon this thread. I believe the name issue relates solely to the bass forum. No one has asked me to leave, and given that this forum is pretty much the most-visited place on the site, I don't think anyone wants to fix something that isn't broken. Also, I own the name "Sound, Studio, and Stage" (which AOL wasn't happy about, but that's life) and UEM understands that it is part of my "brand." If I move, it moves with me. I always thought it a travesty that Bob Moog and Tom Oberheim couldn't use their own names anymore on products, and I don't want to fall into that same situation. Finally, about the "pay to post" comments I made in another thread. I didn't expect it to become a big deal, so let me clarify. There is ALWAYS a chance that any forum could be canned for one reason or another. Hey, if I can be kicked off AOL for being TOO popular, anything can happen! So, I am making contingency plans for the existing [url=http://www.craiganderton.com]www.craiganderton.com[/url] (site which will someday be a place to purchase my CDs and books, as well as find out about upcoming events). If for any reason this forum goes away, the idea would be to set up a forum at my site using similar software to keep the same "look and feel," but I would also HAVE to set up some mechanism to charge for posting. The reason is that I wouldn't have a big company behind me to cover the operating costs, nor a sales team to sell ads. Perhaps eventually it would achieve enough momentum to be sponsored, but it's doubtful that would happen "out of the box." Obviously, the current arrangement with MusicPlayer.com is a better alternative, and I want to maintain it as long as I can. Now, let me state very clearly that this is solely a contingency plan if this site should go away, and that looks [i]extremely[/i] unlikely. UEM has continued to be supportive of me in many ways, some involving this site, some involving the magazines. But that's also a two-way street, and the company has asked me to spend less time on the forum, and for now, to put more effort toward increasing relevant recording content across the UEM magazines. In fact, this has already been in place for a month, but the forum is something I love to do...you're all like friends, and this is a fun place to hang. So, while I may spend less "official" time here, this is enough fun to justify taking up some of my off-hours too. So the bottom line: The name stays, they want me here, they like to keep me happy, I'm working with some great people, and at least for the short term, I'll probably post about 70% as much as I used to...no big deal, given all the great posts that everyone contributes to this smorgasbord. By the way, one of my proudest moments in this forum happened a few weeks ago, when all the topics on the home page were started by someone other than me. It showed once and for all how involved you all are, and how much you contribute to this place. Party on, Garth!!

[jraffertyuswest.net]

Personally, I would like a subscription based service. It would weed out all the people who aren't serious about music. Any one who dislikes this idea clearly does not realize how excruciatingly valuable the information us lackies get on these forums is. With just a sentence or two, the big name veterans on these forums can potentially cut YEARS off of a beginner's learning curve by repeatedly pointing them in the right direction.(s) I really think most people do not realize the significance because any gains they achieve are abstract and the results can not be measured against what "would have happened" had they not been privy to knowledge they aquired here. Personally I would like to see a collaboration between Anderton, Nichols, Massenburg, etc. for a fee based forum should these boards ever go the way of the dodo. Survival of the fittest. :) -Josh.

[Chip McDonald]

I am against a subscription based service. I like these forums being here, and I like having The Powers That Be lurking around - ... but they're not lurking around to the extent I'm going to pay for it. Content is king; here the large majority of content is provided by people who are NOT paid to do so. Regardless of that content's value and use, if you take that away what remains is not a subscription service warranted content. So to charge for what is mainly created in a non-profit context reminds me of an angle Bill Gates would pull... (geez, I'd better post this and start another so I won't get stuck by the Chip Guard Feature...)

[Chip McDonald]

(Insert Dr. McCoy "am I still whole after going through the transporter?" expression on my face) Wow, that was weird. I posted the above and it sent me to a screen with just the "Expert Forums" graphic and nothing else. I'VE REACHED THE END OF THE INTERNET!!!!!! No? Ok. Anyhow, I don't know how many lurkers there are about, but I would think enough that the traffic would warrant the import to someone's budget to keep this running for free based on advertising. Igor Engraver up there is probably being seen by more people that are specifically interested in that software here than anywhere else on the net I would bet, as well as other companie's specific audio products...

[Chip McDonald]

Regardless, I'm not paying for it. My favorite F1 site, Atlas F1, went subscription a few months ago - and I moved on to Planet F1 which has more or less the same content. I'm not saying the content here is found *exactly* elsewhere, but again for the most part it is based on the strength of the "Town Hall" atmosphere here that makes it a good thing. I don't expect to pay to get into Town Hall. Now, if you get GM, Roger, Frangioni and Craig to post even half the volume of what's posted here otherwise... that would be interesting. But having the open door policy makes things interesting, as we've seen by the occasional drop in by certain notable people, that won't happen in a subscription environment. Among other things. Geez, this 1k limit is annoying. [ 11-23-2001: Message edited by: Chip McDonald ]

[-]

Thanks for clearing that up, Craig and Joe. I (and I'm sure everyone else) appreciates you guys being upfront with what's going on. Between the thread linked above, the e-sub thread, and the fact Craig hasn't posted as often lately, I put two and two together and got... Well, I don't know what I got, but I'm thankful that this forum is still here and will keep on running. :) :) :) Whoo hoo!!! :D :D :D :D

[-]

[quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b]Wow, that was weird. I posted the above and it sent me to a screen with just the "Expert Forums" graphic and nothing else. I'VE REACHED THE END OF THE INTERNET!!!!!! No? [/b][/quote] Oh, come on -- you're telling me you've never been [url=http://www.1112.net/lastpage.html]to the end of the internet?[/url] :D

[Gus Lozada]

[quote]Originally posted by popmusic: [b] Oh, come on -- you're telling me you've never been [url=http://www.1112.net/lastpage.html]to the end of the internet?[/url] :D [/b][/quote] :eek: !! I'm gonna print THAT ... and read it once in a while. Good Point, pop !

[ricknbokker]

Hmm...let's see if I have this right... People post info for free, and I have to pay someone else to read it. Right. And if I don't want to pay for it, I'm not serious enough about music. O.K. Glad we cleared that up. And once again, let me state that I haven't heard anything about Craig leaving MP. Just a name change. Steve

[jraffertyuswest.net]

[quote] Hmm...let's see if I have this right... People post info for free, and I have to pay someone else to read it. Right. And if I don't want to pay for it, I'm not serious enough about music. O.K. Glad we cleared that up. Steve [/quote] Hey steve, glad that cleared things up. Any time I can clear any thing else up for you, just let me know. :) -Josh.

[ricknbokker]

Thanks, Josh!! LMAO!!! :D Steve

[Anderton]

Look, guys, free is nice...but let's get real. It COSTS money to provide a place where people can hang out. It costs money for the software, the technicians to keep it running, the server, the phone lines, the software updates, all of that stuff. So you say okay, then just sell ads so it can stay free. Who sells the ads? Who makes up the ads and integrates them into the page? Who pays the phone bills for the people selling the ads? Who does the troubleshooting when someone finds out the ad isn't compatible on some obscure version of Netscape for the Mac? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it ain't any of you, and it ain't free to do these things. When the forum slows down, what's the first thing people do? Right! They bitch!! And they don't fix it, Rob and the other techs have to. These forums don't live on a Pentium computer tucked in the back of a closet at UE Media. I think most of you would be shocked if you realized how much it costs to keep these afloat. I don't know what world you all live in, but in this world, bills show up on a depressingly constant basis. And I have to take issue with the comment that moderators aren't needed, or aren't worth some kind of compensation. Many of the people who come to SSS arrive here because they're tired of unmoderated forums where the signal to noise ratio is poor, at best. Do you realize how many ads/spams I delete? Probably not, because they're gone before you notice. That means I spend a lot of time here NOT posting, but MAINTAINING. Who gets rid of the double-posts? Who answers the personal emails directed to me by people who want posts they made in the heat of the moment removed? And as more people discover this forum, I need to spend even more time maintaining rather than posting...another reason why you haven't seen as many of my posts lately. Finally, the idea that we are somehow exploiting the people who post here is RIDICULOUS. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head forcing them to post. There are probably 30 - 50 lurkers for every poster anyway. The money WE (not you) put up pays for the INFRASTRUCTURE that allows people to post. That infrastructure is costly! These forums don't make a dime, which means they will always be in jeopardy. You guys say you love the forum, but only if it's free. And if it's not free, you'll move on to something that is. Fine. Now that I understand just how valued my efforts are, I think UEM is right that I should spend more time on the magazines. <> Right. Town hall was constructed by elves in the middle of the night, and Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny keep it running. You DID pay for town hall because you paid taxes!! YOUR TAXES paid for the janitors to sweep the floor and maintain the restrooms, the electricity to keep the lights on, the security guard who patrols at night, the postage for the mailings that announce town hall meetings, the new coat of paint when the old one peels off, etc. etc. You expect to pay to get into a museum, a sporting event, whatever because it takes money to run those things -- it's the same thing here, yet you've been spoiled, plain and simple, by getting this for free -- so now you think you're ENTITLED to it. You don't pay to get into a department because they SELL you things, and that's how they make their money. Do we sell things here so you can start sending checks to MusicPlayer.com? Am I missing something? <> Yeah, and I've had nothing to do with creating that atmosphere, and that "Town Hall" just appeared magically one day thatnks to the diligent work of magic elves. Okay, let's see what happens if I stop maintaining this forum. Okay spammers, spam away!! Hey, it's a FREE and OPEN town hall!! Start posting those enlarge-your-penis and Viagra ads, I'm sure they'll be appreciated as people wade through them to find answers to questions about hard disk recording! <> I'll say it one last time: FIRST OF ALL, [i]YOU ARE NOT PAYING ANYTHING.[/i] AND IF YOU WERE, YOU WOULD NOT BE PAYING FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO READ YOUR POST. [i] YOU WOULD BE PAYING TO COVER THE EXPENSES OF A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE CAN POST FOR FREE.[/i] Is this really such an incredibly difficult concept to grasp? I know a lot of you do in fact understand the way the world works, my anger is NOT directed at you. As to the rest of you...WTF is wrong with you people?!? I'm outta here until I cool off.

[Philip OKeefe]

Hey Craig, I understand buddy. I wouldn't mind paying a reasonable fee to be here, and I think many others feel the same, but there's got to be a balance. Should lurkers have free access just to view? Some would argue that they get the info free while the posters are charged for posting said info. Lurkers charged? Then you are in a situation where people don't sign on because they have no idea of how cool this site really is, and membership doesn't grow, or declines. It would be impossible to seperate the "takers" from the "givers" around here. In the old days, some BBS's with shareware software had a three to one download to upload ratio - upload one and you could download three. But that would be a administrative nightmare if applied to helpful posts to help me posts. And the job of the people behind the scenes and moderators here is hard enough - the idea is to increase revenues and cut workload, correct? Maybe it could be tied into the magazines somehow. Tack another few bucks on to the subscription to all the mags to include the internet forums. For those who don't want the mags, just charge a online fee. For those who are really valuable contributors, maybe some sort of comp could be arranged. Whatever. All of this is just speculative and random rambling. The one thing I want to make clear is that YOU ARE APPRECIATED! I just looked into UBB prices for possibly adding a "our studio" specific BBS to our new website... this software isn't free or even cheap folks. Not to mention all the other previously mentioned support infrastructure. So Musicplayer, thanks for all you do... Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html New URL (Coming soon!) [url=http://www.ssrstudio.com]www.ssrstudio.com[/url] pokeefe777@msn.com

[Tedster]

[img]http://www.maggiore.net/greenacres/images/zmrhaney.jpg[/img] "For a nominal fee, Mr. Douglas, you can talk to all your friends right here"... :D [img]http://www.maggiore.net/greenacres/images/zeb.jpg[/img] "Shucks, sounds better'n britches on a barn owl!" [ 11-23-2001: Message edited by: Tedster ]

[Anderton]

<> Charging people who post is not an ideal solution. However, there are a couple of justifications. First, they're the only ones who get to ask questions. If you look at all the topics here, many are asking for opinions or solutions to problems. It seems reasonable to pay for a place to exist where you can do that. As to those who contribute, whatever happened to the "what goes around, comes around" concept...one day you answer somebody's question, and the next day, someone answers yours. I've given a lot of advice in this forum, but received a lot too. Seems fair to me. The second reason for charging posters is that they are essentially paying to keep the area limited to those who are willing to pay. That may sound elitist, but look on the bright side: it keeps out the people who clutter up bandwidth with flame wars and spam. When I say that something should be charged, I don't mean something prohibitive. Face it, if this place isn't worth $2 - $3 a month to someone, then why are they even spending their time here? That's about 10% of the average cable bill, and less than the cost of burger and fries at MacDonald's. Why aren't all of the people bitching and moaning here complaining that CABLE should be free? After all, network shows are free -- all those cable shows should be free too, right? When I was on AOL, and it cost $3 AN HOUR just to be online, we had people running up $80/month bills on SSS and feeling it was well worth it. Times have changed. However, there were some people who contributed above and beyond the call of duty. When they did, some of my contacts at AOL just happened to -- ooooops! -- charge for less time than they used. Gee, funny how those computers always made errors in favor of the customer... Well, enough of this. I know most of your appreciate what's going on here and regard the fact that it's free as a gift, not a birthright. It just really frosts me when people mouth off without having a clue about the reality of a situation.

[soapbox]

It's easy to acknowledge that this site provides something of value. It's also easy to acknowledge that it costs time and money to run this site. [b]Craig[/b], there are a number of tasks you listed to maintain this site of which I was unaware (and of course, there are a number of which I was aware as well). I've always been grateful for your efforts, and now I am even more so. It is a pity we don't know more of what goes on behind the scenes. If we could, we might spend less time griping and more time showing gratitude. If we stick to the "town hall" analogy, I suppose we magazine subscribers are like the taxpayers in this instance. However, the money may be coming from another source of which I am unaware. Just as taxes sometimes need to be raised, I realize that another way to pay for this site may one day be needed. Personally, I'd be willing to pay something to access this site, as long as it were fair, both in terms of cost and in terms of who would have to pay. [b]Craig[/b], it was your name that pulled me to this site because I appreciate what you created at AOL. I continue to appreciate what you and the others behind this site do here as well. Take care, Geoff

[Tedster]

Sure, I wouldn't mind ponying up a subscription. Other thoughts, though...how about the advertisers? Surely they help to support the operation financially. (Yes they do, and STOP CALLING ME SHIRLEY!) And, do you think regular magazine subscribers should get a little bit of a cut over non-subscribers? Those who subscribe to, say, GP, or EQ, or whatever, could get a reduced rate. Nice little perk.

[soapbox]

I would like to weigh in on the "posters pay/lurkers free" issue. I believe that the privilege of asking questions for posters is offset by the work of providing content. Similarly, the lack of privilege for lurkers is offset by the lack of work. Of course, providing content isn't always work. I often just post for fun. However, I have spent my time on a number of occassions to do research for people who ask questions; and when I do research for myself, I often post my findings, in case someone else might need them. I have noticed that many others do the same. I pay the same for my magazine subscriptions whether I write letters to the editor and submit questions to a columnist (post) or not (lurk). It's not a perfect analogy, because readers provide much less of magazine content than we do here, but the principle is basically the same, IMHO. My two cents (or $3/month), Geoff [ 11-23-2001: Message edited by: soapbox ]

[jraffertyuswest.net]

Hilarious and brutally true post craig. [quote] YOUR TAXES paid for the janitors to sweep the floor and maintain the restrooms, the electricity to keep the lights on, the security guard who patrols at night, the postage for the mailings that announce town hall meetings, the new coat of paint when the old one peels off, etc. etc. [/quote] Hey Craig, I have done quite a bit of painting. Don't worry if the forums start peeling, I'll paint em' for free! Regarding the lurker/poster issue. It seems to make more sense to me to just charge for a membership. Meaning that without one you couldn't lurk OR post. I definately understand some people don't want to lose the "feel" of a free forum. To me that is far more important than the actual money, but sometimes life isn't perfect. I will be happy if it can just be really good. And if I had to pay even 5 bucks a month, to me it would still be a really, really, really good deal. I think people will wise up if it ever comes to that. -Josh. -Josh.