So Long, Craig Anderton's SSS

[videoeditor1]

Hey Craig, You got my back, and my foot in anybody's backside that don't think a (nominal) fee is a resonable thing. The internet bubble has long burst. The revenues that everybody and their grandson were projecting are not going to come back again, ever. No way ads alone can pull in the revenue. Where exactly do I send my check? NYC Drew

[Tedster]

Drew, You can make your check payable to: Ted Hoffman 5200 West..HEY! OWWWW!!! I was just kidding!!!

[dansouth]

[quote]Originally posted by soapbox: [b]I would like to weigh in on the "posters pay/lurkers free" issue. I believe that the privilege of asking questions for posters is offset by the work of providing content. Similarly, the lack of privilege for lurkers is offset by the lack of work. [/b][/quote] Free rider questions are always perplexing. On one hand, the posters are the ones who really make the site work. They provide content, which is not always particularly good, but it keeps the site active and lively. Lurkers provided nothing except hits, which only advertisers can appreciate. On the other hand, lurkers DO sometimes turn into posters, esp. when a topic comes up that they find particularly interesting. You can't expect people to pay to lurk; if you do, I would expect that the number of visitors would dwindle sooner or later. If you charge for posting, I think it should be a blanket charge, not per post. Otherwise, when someone asks a question, I might hesitate to respond if I know that I'd save money by not doing so. It would be cool if your first (pick a number) posts were free, but then you could just change your id to avoid posting. Very difficult indeed, but that's the best I can come up with.

[soapbox]

At this point, I want to reaffirm my support of Sound On Sound's business model (sorry [b]alphajerk[/b]), and I think it could be a good model for MusicPlayer as well. I'm happy to pay $60 per year for SOS's commercial-free magazine, which has more content than any other magazine to which I subscribe. My $60 doesn't just pay for the magazine; it pays for my access to SOS's website as an eSub member too. Sound On Sound's website is much like this one except that it also has the complete contents of every issue since 1997. As a subscriber, if I want SOS back issues on searchable CD-ROMs, I can buy the contents of any year for a small fee.

[fuzz]

this whole "i want it and i want it free" thing so reminds me of dead shows....where kids would walk around asking for free tickets....yuk! the only reason i would go to the parking lot would be to pick up some good ole acid....so i would ask one of these kids and they would say yeah...that will be 5 bucks :) i spend way more a day on cigs than what has been suggested for a monthly fee....and i get alot more from these forms than i do smoking. just my funky dollar bill

[ricknbokker]

Well, Craig... you did it. You changed my mind! :D Sorry you had to get so upset to do it! I like the idea of a magazine subscription price increase, as long as the only people paying it are those that are online. I would also make a payment directly to the site... since I wouldn't have to look at ads anymore, right? :) Hell, maybe I'll send you a check. Call it an aggravation fee!! Again, my apologies. No one told me the internet 'party' was over. Once again, the last to know. As I type this, I'm removing the lampshade from my head :D :D Jeez, the trouble a guy can get into just trying to hit 400 posts... Steve (where's my pants?...)

[Anderton]

<> But I want to emphasize that to me, the concept of paying to keep this site alive has NOTHING to do with rewarding anyone. If I have to move SSS to another host and charge for it, the reason for charging would not be to put a BMW in the garage, but just to keep the electricity flowing, the software working, and the servers humming. The model is more like passing the hat, or splitting the check in a restaurant, rather than "who wants to be a millionaire."

[Anderton]

Hey, I truly appreciate the "where do I send my check" sentiments, but honestly, I'm not asking for money for this site. As I said, I hope the present arrangement continues with UEM, and I expect that it will. But if not, I don't want SSS to disappear, yet I couldn't afford to run it myself. So I wondered if people would pay enough to cover the costs. And it seems the answer is that a lot of people would, and a lot of people wouldn't. Here's another model for you: If SSS had to have a post-UEM existence, it would be like holding a pot luck dinner. There would be too many people for me to feed directly, but if everyone brings something, then we can have dinner. Sure, bringing your conversational skills would be a nice addition to the dinner, but we wouldn't eat unless you also brought food. I suspect that the people posting here saying they want everything for free are probably the kind of people who show up at pot luck dinners, and don't help with the dishes afterward, believing that their presence alone should be enough of a contribution. And the people who say "Sure, I'd kick in a few bucks to keep this sucker alive" are the people who [i]would[/i] help with the dishes. A word to the wise: sometimes the best part of the party is when most of the people have left, except those who stayed around to help clean up.

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by Anderton: [b]Look, guys, free is nice...but let's get real. It COSTS money to provide a place where people can hang out. It costs money for the software, the technicians to keep it running, the server, the phone lines, the software updates, all of that stuff. [/quote][/b] I didn't say it doesn't. I'm just saying that the reality is that what makes this happen is that people can stumble upon these forums and with minimal effort on their part participate. Whether that can be a profitable venture I don't know, probably not if multiple people are being paid to run things. That doesn't change the nature of it. [b]So you say okay, then just sell ads so it can stay free. Who sells the ads? Who makes up the ads and integrates them into the page? Who pays the phone bills for the people selling the ads? Who does the troubleshooting when someone finds out the ad isn't compatible on some obscure version of Netscape for the Mac? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it ain't any of you, and it ain't free to do these things.[/b] No, but again if it's a marginal business that isn't my fault or the people who posts here fault.

[Chip McDonald]

[b]When the forum slows down, what's the first thing people do? Right! They bitch!! And they don't fix it, Rob and the other techs have to.[/b] I didn't, but it's a fact that if things basically grind to a halt no one is going to want to participate. [b]And I have to take issue with the comment that moderators aren't needed, or aren't worth some kind of compensation. [/b] I assume this is directed elsewhere because I never suggested this... [b]Finally, the idea that we are somehow exploiting the people who post here is RIDICULOUS. [/b] I didn't write that, so I assume that's also directed elsewhere..

[soapbox]

[quote][i]Originally posted by soapbox and then by Anderton:[/i] [b]Geoff:[/b] I would like to weigh in on the "posters pay/lurkers free" issue. I believe that the privilege of asking questions for posters is offset by the work of providing content. Similarly, the lack of privilege for lurkers is offset by the lack of work. [b]Craig:[/b] But I want to emphasize that to me, the concept of paying to keep this site alive has NOTHING to do with rewarding anyone. If I have to move SSS to another host and charge for it, the reason for charging would not be to put a BMW in the garage, but just to keep the electricity flowing, the software working, and the servers humming. The model is more like passing the hat, or splitting the check in a restaurant, rather than "who wants to be a millionaire."[/quote] Craig, I believe I understand and agree with what you wrote, but I don't understand how it is a "but" response to what I wrote. Either I didn't understand you, or vice versa. So let me rephrase what I wrote, and perhaps you can tell me if that's the meaning you originally got: I don't feel anyone should be singled out to pay or not pay between the posters and lurkers. Earlier, I thought you were suggesting that posters should pay instead of lurkers because posters get something extra by being able to ask questions. All I'm saying is that posters give something extra too, by answering questions and by providing content. The equation could be expressed this way: 1-1=0. In the case of the lurkers, they don't get to ask questions; but the don't give anything either. In this case, the equation could be expressed this way: 0-0=0. In both cases, the equation equals zero. I was using this argument to say we're all equals, posters and lurkers alike, and we should all have to equally pay. If you want to use another argument to say the same thing, I'll be happy for you to ignore my argument. ;) On the other hand, maybe I didn't understand you. Perhaps you have a different idea of "splitting the check" than I do. Please let me know; I'm confused. Thanks, Geoff

[Chip McDonald]

[b]You guys say you love the forum, but only if it's free. And if it's not free, you'll move on to something that is. Fine. Now that I understand just how valued my efforts are, I think UEM is right that I should spend more time on the magazines.[/b] If *you* were posting more, as I cited in my post, that's a different story. Knowing that Craig Anderton is getting rid of spam isn't why I'm here, I'm interested in what Craig Anderton has to write - of course. [b]Right. Town hall was constructed by elves in the middle of the night, and Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny keep it running. You DID pay for town hall because you paid taxes!! [/b] Ok, I'll admit, bad analogy. The internet is it's own thing.

[Chip McDonald]

The real deal is that we commoners were attracted to this place by the catchet provided by yourself and the other moderators. As it turns out who posts here is actually a remarkably mature group of people considering what I've seen in the Greater Scheme of Things (from other places on the net and BBS since well before the internet went "public"). This is an added value. Because it *has* turned out ot be a fairly "respectable" place, I think that has fed back on itself and has created more added value,in the sense of the community is helpful *as a service* to those asking questions and no doubt lurking. Can you charge money for this? Of course. It alters the dynamic, though: there then is the expectation of performance from the moderators, a probably reduction in the user base, and the elimination of the traffic of lurkers and the casual drop-by. That reduces it's value, IMO.

[Chip McDonald]

[b] expect to pay to get into a museum, a sporting event, whatever because it takes money to run those things --[/b] Again, I'd *pay* to read daily articles by the moderators and to have their opinion on things. [b] it's the same thing here, yet you've been spoiled, plain and simple, by getting this for free -- so now you think you're ENTITLED to it.[/b] I didn't say that. I said I wouldn't pay for it as it stands right now. I'm not begrudging that musicplayer or whomever wants to charge money. If you post more, that's different. [b]Yeah, and I've had nothing to do with creating that atmosphere, [/b] Hey, wait, I DID NOT SAY THAT. At the same time, as you say I didn't force you to do this. Personally, I think the idea that they pay people such as yourself to do housekeeping on a BBS is silly, when they should be paying you to write and paying some intern to do the chores.

[Chip McDonald]

[b]see what happens if I stop maintaining this forum. Okay spammers, spam away!! Hey, it's a FREE and OPEN town hall!! Start posting those enlarge-your-penis and Viagra ads, I'm sure they'll be appreciated as people wade through them to find answers to questions about hard disk recording![/b] Craig, the point is that *no one is here because you're getting rid of Viagra ads!* Do you really think that? If you go away this forum "goes away". I had no idea you were actually doing housekeeping here (does that mean GM, Roger and Frangioni does as well?); people are here to read what you have to say about things, your perspective. To be honest, I find it absurd they have you doing that. I probably shouldn't say that aloud, but it's not like you need "Craig Anderton, Electronic Musician Authority" to do that.

[Chip McDonald]

[quote][b]I'll say it one last time: FIRST OF ALL, [i]YOU ARE NOT PAYING ANYTHING. AND IF YOU WERE, YOU WOULD NOT BE PAYING FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO READ YOUR POST. YOU WOULD BE PAYING TO COVER THE EXPENSES OF A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE CAN POST FOR FREE.[/i] Is this really such an incredibly difficult concept to grasp?[/b][/quote] No it isn't, but it wouldn't be free to post if I had to pay to post here... I don't remember writing that so I presume that's directed elsewhere... [b]I know a lot of you do in fact understand the way the world works, my anger is NOT directed at you. As to the rest of you...WTF is wrong with you people?!? I'm outta here until I cool off.[/b] I'm sorry to have made you so mad. I come here to hopefully find something curious to read, audio related or otherwise, and I try to do my part by offering crumbs here and there where I feel appropriate. I also try to be entertaining along the way. I suppose if one feels that I should be paying for the priviledge to post here then maybe I shouldn't, since I'm presently obviously not paying.

[rold]

hmm...This sounds like what marriage counsellers would call a conflict between "bubbles of reality" - ie, a big misunderstanding based on our individual perceptions of what we see and hear. Craig, I believe everone who has posted here has recognized the value of the forum and the value of you as a moderator. None of us would be here without your input and guidance. Your presence is what makes this place great! No one here questions that. Despite that, none of us knew what it takes to run a BBS as incredible as this one. If it comes down to it, most of us would have no problem with paying a membership fee. But Chip's right: it would change the entire nature of the forum. If it comes down to it, let me know where to send the check. Peace, Harold PS. Let UEM know SSS is the sole reason I thought of and subscribe to EQ. [ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: 'rold ]

[jraffertyuswest.net]

Rold so are you saying if this thing falls apart that we get HALF of the forums and craig gets HALF?? :p Who is going to get custody of the Graemlin's? :eek: :rolleyes: :confused: Maybe we should try to work things out, for the Graemlin's sake. -Josh.

[rold]

[quote]Originally posted by jrafferty@uswest.net: [b] Who is going to get custody of the Graemlin's? :eek: :rolleyes: :confused: Maybe we should try to work things out, for the Graemlin's sake. -Josh.[/b][/quote] If things go that route, I personally think Kahn should supervise the Graemlins. He's shown exemplary skill in their care and has let them have more free will than anyone else on this board. Kahn - should the need become present, you up for the job? It's not an easy task - Graemlins and The Smilies in general require a lot of supervision, but I think you are perfect for the role.. :) Harold [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s/ups/supersaiyan2mvegeta/dogpile.gif[/img]

[Hippie]

I'd help pay to keep SSS alive, if it comes to that. I'd even help with the after party clean-up. You are correct, usually the real fun begins after the party is over, and some of the best improv., ad-libbed music happens, too. unwavered support, Matt

[alphajerk]

[quote]Originally posted by Anderton: [b]I suspect that the people posting here saying they want everything for free are probably the kind of people who show up at pot luck dinners, and don't help with the dishes afterward, believing that their presence alone should be enough of a contribution. And the people who say "Sure, I'd kick in a few bucks to keep this sucker alive" are the people who [i]would[/i] help with the dishes..[/b][/quote] wrong again craig. im the type of person who would provide all the food, buy the kegs, and supply the pot all for FREE and not even think twice about asking a soul for a buck. all my parties have always been that way and will continue to be that way. fact is if i have to pay to be here, i wouldnt be here and go find somewhere else. there are plenty of other places. and i no longer will buy SOS, i might peruse it for FREE in the stores but now way ill give them another dime. i certainly wouldnt pay for an eSUB... hell, i wouldnt pay for porn, why would i pay for their beginner/intermediate level drivel? as for the moderator thing, there are plenty of people here who participate for FREE that know as much as any of the moderators. i think site could survive without them, i know the moderators arent the reason why i hang out. lifes a bitch i guess. [and i AM fully aware of the costs it takes to maintain webspace so im not ignorant in my opinions regarding this]

[John Paterno]

[quote]Originally posted by alphajerk: [b] wrong again craig. im the type of person who would provide all the food, buy the kegs, and supply the pot all for FREE and not even think twice about asking a soul for a buck. all my parties have always been that way and will continue to be that way. fact is if i have to pay to be here, i wouldnt be here and go find somewhere else. there are plenty of other places. and i no longer will buy SOS, i might peruse it for FREE in the stores but now way ill give them another dime. i certainly wouldnt pay for an eSUB... hell, i wouldnt pay for porn, why would i pay for their beginner/intermediate level drivel? as for the moderator thing, there are plenty of people here who participate for FREE that know as much as any of the moderators. i think site could survive without them, i know the moderators arent the reason why i hang out. lifes a bitch i guess. [and i AM fully aware of the costs it takes to maintain webspace so im not ignorant in my opinions regarding this][/b][/quote] But, Alpha, how often do you throw one of those parties (and will I get invited to the next one?)? This 'party' is a 24/7 operation, and I believe the costs and [probably more importantly] the TIME needed to keep it up and running justify having a sponsor or benefactor to keep up financially/logistically. If no company is willing to do it, it is then up to us to keep it going. And that would mean paying a fee so the costs would be met. Seems pretty logical to me. As far as the moderators go, I think this site has the best ones. The knowledge and temperament of these guys goes a long way to keep things in check -- even if they're not posting everyday. To the guy who commented about a daily newsletter: Who has THAT much GOOD information to dispense on a DAILY basis? No one. Like anyone else, the moderators start topics or chime in when they feel like they have something constructive or informative to say. Besides Fletcher [well, in his own way], who else from these boards who has gone off to moderate on another site that you could say that about? I like coming to this place. I like the fact that I have met people in different stages of the game, and people who are into what they do. I've definitely had more fun here than those 'other places'. If at some point I have to pay a few bucks to keep coming, so be it. I would probably be able to write it off, anyway... Cheers, John

[stratman_dup1]

Hey Craig- Don't EVER feel under-apreciated!!! I have learned many things here, a lot of them coming deirectly from you, and wouldn't hesitate to pay a small monthly fee to continue to learn from you and others here. I understand what it means to have access to some of the best minds in the biz, and it's a wonderful thing :D :D .

[KHAN]

[quote]Originally posted by 'rold: [b] If things go that route, I personally think Kahn should supervise the Graemlins. He's shown exemplary skill in their care and has let them have more free will than anyone else on this board. Kahn - should the need become present, you up for the job? It's not an easy task - Graemlins and The Smilies in general require a lot of supervision, but I think you are perfect for the role.. Harold [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s/ups/supersaiyan2mvegeta/dogpile.gif[/img][/b][/quote] Smilies Everyone!!! Smilies!!! [img]http://www.geocities.com/TvPilotGuy/Images/fantasyisland77.gif[/img] [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s/otn/realhappy/luxhello.gif[/img] [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s/otn/realhappy/offwall.gif[/img] [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s/otn/realhappy/offwall.gif[/img] [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s/otn/alienz/rotcol.gif[/img] [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s/ups/razor_wind/sususani.gif[/img] Tatoo, where in the HELL is my beer!!!!!!!!! [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s/contrib/lilly/hmm3grin2orange.gif[/img] [ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: KHAN ]

[Anderton]

<> I can afford to do that. I can't afford to run a BBS.

[Hippie]

[quote]Originally posted by Anderton: [b]<> I can afford to do that. I can't afford to run a BBS.[/b][/quote] AlphaJ is giving a whole new meaning to the term, 'pot-luck'! :D

[alphajerk]

back in my heyday, i used to throw parties like that on a fairly regular basis ;) i just dont think ANY site would do well on a pay basis. not yet. maybe when the internet2 hits and EVERYONE has broadband and the services are a little more than text posts but for this? too many other FREE places.

[soapbox]

I have only one question: [i]What is fair?[/i]

[Danny M]

[quote]Originally posted by soapbox: [b]I have only one question: [i]What is fair?[/i][/b][/quote] It seems to me that the current Internet-generation definition of "fair pricing" is as follows: Fair-Pricing, n, adj (depends on usage): Somewhere in between free, and approximately $19.95(USD), inclusive. A sliding scale for determining the value of an item or service exists which depends upon whether the consumer perceives the provider of the item or service as being too-large, commercialized, able to turn a profit, or otherwise successful in business. This explains why most Internet consumers believe that they should receive music for free, and have the latest iteration of the ProTools DAW delivered to their doorstep for only the cost of shipping and handling. The inverse effect occurs when the item or service in question can manage to have the label(s) "indie," "underground," "punk," or "street." Any item or service that loses or does not conform to the aforementioned connotations suffers a severe drop in market value. :D I must admit that I AM a bit bothered by the idea of having to pay for access to the forums, because: 1) They were previously offered for free by CHOICE of the site owners. Although my rational mind understands the problems and expenses incurred in running a high-bandwidth interactive site, there is still a feeling of having something taken away. (A vendor gives you a chocolate bar and says "It's on the house." You begin to eat it, and some portion of the way through the vendor says "I've decided that you need to pay for the rest of it." Although the vendor is technically justified in his request for money, it still doesn't feel very pleasant.) 2) I'm in a tight spot financially, and I might not be able to justify an exepense that is non-essential. (Yes, money is that tight right now.) This would mean that I couldn't participate in these forums for a while. Point number 2 reinforces point number 1. With all of that on the table, I have to close by saying that I would certainly LIKE the forums to continue as a free service, but I recognize that a membership fee may become a necessity. It might make me have to leave for a while, but once I have some more disposable income, I'd be back. -Danny [ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: Danny M ]

[Anderton]

<> Yes. Our forums are our own little domains. Someone here suggested hiring an intern to do this stuff; but as I'm doing this on a volunteer basis, you can assume there's not enough bucks going around to hire employees. In fact, I'm currently doing a lot of the posting of press releases on the home page too. <> Well, I'd prefer to spend all my time starting topics and answering posts, of course...but I do take a certain amount of pride in this place, and try to keep it well-edited. I appreciate your comments about being here for what I have to say, but I also feel a lot of people come here for the experience, which is quite different from many other forums. I believe the fact that it [i]is[/i] edited has something to do with that experience, so in a way, my expertise is being used in that context as well. <> This is my "baby," and I'm pretty sensitive about it (anyone who hasn't figured that out after reading my posts is definitely NOT paying attention !). I don't think I'm deluding myself that this is a quality place, which attracts a bunch of extremely cool people. So the concept of "Well, if this cost something, I'd just go somewhere else" was just a terribly deflating thing to hear, like all the effort I put into this doesn't mean anything, and any old forum would do. I know a lot of people don't feel that way, but still, it was really upsetting to me...I'm sure you can understand why. << I come here to hopefully find something curious to read, audio related or otherwise, and I try to do my part by offering crumbs here and there where I feel appropriate.>> Much more than crumbs, I assure you. << I also try to be entertaining along the way. I suppose if one feels that I should be paying for the priviledge to post here then maybe I shouldn't, since I'm presently obviously not paying.>> Please, please, please (to quote James Brown): the concept is not paying for the privilege to post, the concept is paying to keep something alive so there IS a place to post. There is a difference from a philosophical standpoint. Believe me, if this site was raking in the bucks, this issue would never have even come up. But the bottom line is this: Would you rather have SSS being free lead to its demise, or pay something to keep it around? Neither alternative is as good as to keep it free AND keep it alive, but given a choice between the two, my theory was that people would rather have it around than not. It's like NPR. I send in my $50 a year because I listen to it, and want it to survive. <> The internet meltdown has proven that losing money doesn't cut it in a capitalist-based society. Look what happened to a bunch of other music sites...they just aren't there any more, or have way downsized. A site has only three options that I see: sponsorship by corporate largesse (e.g., a company maintains a web site because it helps them sell things), a business model that brings income (e.g., selling stuff), or going out of business. You will see those "free" sites continue to dry up, or become absorbed. And I think that at some point, people will realize that a site sponsored by a manufacturer is not always going to offer free and open discussion. I like the idea of subscriber-supported things because then you're free of advertiser pressure, ad sales, and all that goes with the commercial end of things. But if people aren't ready for that concept yet, fine. I have plenty of other things to do... Okay, I hope I've made myself clear. To recap once more: 1. At present, it looks like these forums will continue under the aegis of UEM. They recognize that the forums complement the magazines, enhance the company's image, and provide a valuable public service. This is good, and it keeps them free. 2. Should UEM not want to continue this forum someday, I do not want to see it die. I would therefore take it to my site, but I do not have the resources to pay for the infrastructure necessary to make it happen. Therefore, I would charge people for access to the forum in order to pay those expenses.