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So Long, Craig Anderton's SSS


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A few weeks ago, I started threads on Tascam's MX2424 forum and the DMXR100 forum on the validity (or necessity) of charging for software updates. Craig uses the same logic. I am willing to pay for updates and have my hardware/software devices live to see another day of development and support, than bitch and bellyache of "free" stuff, and see the provider go under. -------------------- How much does internet access / bandwidth access cost [b]outside[/b] of these United States? Cuz every time I go overseas, even if I use a service from somebody that's [i]local[/i], I end up paying 50-100USD for the two or so weeks I'm there. Do we have it easy? Or are we reaping the benefits of our investments in the "communications" infrastructure? -------------------- One other thing to consider: With Fletcher, Jules, Bob etc all spinning off multiple forums (as an example only!) the market place gets saturated with "content" providers. While our possible "free" portals/forums increase in the short run, at some point, advertisers start getting less bang for their buck, forcing sites like these to reduce what they can charge for ad space. Less ad space...less revenue. Less revenue...you get the picture. Two years ago [url=http://www.usa.net/][b][i]USA[/i].net[/b][/url] was advertising FREE internet based email FOR LIFE. Fast forward today....It happened to the hardiest of companies. Having a flashy site is cool & all. One quote I got last year was in the $4000.00 range for content development and 1 yr of support. It was a simple 10 page site with some flash animation etc. Today, in retrospect, I must have been on drugs.... Alpha's web site and this forum are like comparing (size wise) a Lear Jet and a 747-400. In October, with nothing better to do, I ..um..."tracked" some statistics on 5 of the forums Craig's, MPER, GM, DF & RN. I don't know how much money these guys pull in for ads, nor do I care, but it's a massive amount of hits, of users, of posts etc [b]daily[/b]. Hey, the only thing worse than beating a dead horse, is fucking one.... To conclude: 1. At some point in the near-mid future, economics will dictate that UEM will have to scale back some of this web shit. 2. This may or may not result in personnel changes. 3. The above mentioned changes may or may not result in a fee based service, no service, more ads, or something in between 4. Since Craig owns "SSS", he may decide to migrate it to a location of his choice if the direction UEM chooses does not coincide with his own aspirations. At that point, economics (among other things) will dictate on if, and how much the cover charge will be. 5. For now, they are holding an even keel, and the man is staying put. 6. AES is this weekend. Christmas soon after that. Fatten your eyes, spread a little cheer, hope that your boss/client has already axed who they're gonna axe (to avoid paying that end of year bonus)...and come back in 2002 swinging like a champ! NYC Drew
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I have a tertiary solution. A message board equivalent of shareware, more or less. You don't change these forums at all. BUT - you create a new one - one set aside for "contributing users", monetary or otherwise. Put a limit, say 90 days, on new users before they have to *re-register*. Contributing/donating users wouldn't have to do that. Maybe they also get simple perks like no flood control, or greater than 1k posting limits. Subtle little cost-free things. I suggest this because while I would not pay for this site if forced to do so, *I would try to donate something otherwise*. A lot of people, as already seen here in posts to this thread, are willing to do so apparently. You keep the present community, while creating a slight social push to be a "contributing member", just as NPR does. Create the feel for an obligation. That can be more enthralling than a simple "pay or else" scheme. There's a different dynamic in that no one is twisting your arm per se, but socially there is stigma attached. In a community such as this I think that would work. How much money would it yield? I don't know. I do know probably more than what you'd get if you went subscriber-only, and with less demands. As far as moderating goes, I do know something of what it's like. I moderated a political discussion group that was networked to I think about 35 BBS's back before Al Gore invented the internet that had about 70 posts a day, a couple thousand regular users over 3 states. What sucked about that was not only did I have to moderate - in a much more rigorous fashion than here, but you couldn't have profanity (a couple BBS's were "family oriented"), which really made it "not a lot of fun". Lasted for a couple of years. Didn't get paid a dime. I did it because it was interesting verbally jousting with people *who were passionate about their beliefs*. Which is why I'm here: it's difficult to find passionate people in the world anymore. They're here. Passionate people are more interesting. I also got to rant daily about things that made me mad in politics, and people actually apparently read it and they would end up getting placed in some news rags here and there. The ironic thing is that one of the last major debates we had was myself arguing with basically all the sysops, that their days were basically numbered, thanks to the coming arrival of the Internet. They couldn't see it happening ("it's too expensive", "it's too complicated", "but on my BBS 30 people can chat at once, the Internet will NEVER be able to do that!" (hilarious). I found it obvious in a number of ways... A lot of them were leaning towards having paid memberships. They offered different levels back then, based on how much time you were allowed on the board. The only thing you could do back then was play really primitive multi-user games, message boards, chat (with only a few people at a time), or download/leach programs and porn. The BBS's that offered the most of course charged the most; the problem is that all the BBS's wanted to charge at some point, even though what they provided was superfluous in the Grand Scheme of Things. What would happen is that each of the large boards would have a strong core subscriber base, and the rest would be pot luck. You can't alter the dynamic of posting here because of that; you'll end up with despotism. That's what quite remarkable here, no one has really tried to claim territorial rights, which is amazing. So, start a donation drive, give those members credit and certain priviledges. Watch out for despots. Create a need for becoming a "member". As far as housework is concerned... There's two things I find amazing but unneccesary here, both of which probably increases the maintenance overhead here much larger than it needs to be. 1) Instant user membership. The email password routine doesn't stop spammers or Beavis-ism. Put a 24 hour approval on the membership; have kudbya look them over everyday, throw out the questionable ones. Anyone who really wants to post here won't be affected, and this would help deter the rest. 2) Inline graphics. I don't see a need for this, although it can be "neat". If this causes Craig to have to guard against graphic spam daily, that should go, it doesn't ad to the content here. Just thoughts, people have them. Some people have too many I suppose... [ 11-25-2001: Message edited by: Chip McDonald ]

Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com

Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

 

/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien

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"""Alpha's web site and this forum are like comparing (size wise) a Lear Jet and a 747-400. In October, with nothing better to do, I ..um..."tracked" some statistics on 5 of the forums Craig's, MPER, GM, DF & RN. """" excuse me? how does MY site even get figured into a comparison? its more like comparing a car to a plane. they arent even serving the same function.... then again, i have DL audio files with use more bandwidth in one file than a text based forum does. another free site i work for [and i am not cheap] is moving on a billion banners served and 8 million games played... it also has about 9x's the amount of "members" this place has, its certainly not up to par with something like yahoo but they too are FREE to the user [they are more like the lear jet vs. the 747]. yo fuzz, dead shows i went to... i wasnt getting charged shit for the drops. i also didnt have [or pay for] tickets but still got in ;) nothing like a fire escape to provide me with a way in.

alphajerk

FATcompilation

"if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson

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Uh.....hello.........is there anybody out there actually reading before they post. [quote]Originally posted by Anderton: [b] Okay, I hope I've made myself clear. To recap once more: 1. At present, it looks like these forums will continue under the aegis of UEM. They recognize that the forums complement the magazines, enhance the company's image, and provide a valuable public service. This is good, and it keeps them free. [/b][/quote] Did I miss something?
So Many Drummers. So Little Time...
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[quote]Originally posted by NYC Drew: [b] Naaa Khan, I guess some of us are looking ahead to the 2nd qtr 2003.... NYC Drew[/b][/quote] Could you tell me if the Buffalo Bills will be any good by then :rolleyes: :D Man I hope so :confused:
So Many Drummers. So Little Time...
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[b]KHAN[/b], this thread has always been about a hypothetical situation. Although the discussion began with confusion, I think most of us are now clear what's what. Personally, I find it amusing how this topic keeps sneaking in and hijacking threads. It's a stealth topic! ;) [b]Beware:[/b] "NOBODY EXPECTS THE PAY TO POST TOPIC!" :D

Enthusiasm powers the world.

 

Craig Anderton's Archiving Article

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Well I almost didn't reply to this, because I didn't want to bump it back to the top again . But I just wanted to say that there have been some GREAT suggestions in here, many of which never occurred to me. You are a most resourceful group...maybe some of these suggestions could even apply here. Again, let me say that UEM has been great about this, sticking it out on the net while everyone with, shall we say, a less long-term outlook has been doing duck and cover. I am sure they will be rewarded for this, and maybe sooner than anyone thinks. But it's always a good idea of have contingency plans...learned that in the first go-round of SSS. Thanks again. Back to music.
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Well.... Being a systems developer by trade, and having developed some Internet sites like this one and considered developing more, I've thought about this conundrum quite often. And to me, it's not a question of whether I would personally pay money to support this site, or think it's worth paying for. I would, and it is. However, I still don't think it's a good idea, for reasons that Chip has alluded to: once you introduce payment into the equation, people will think twice before posting and/or becoming a member. You might think this would add to the quality of the posts because it would keep flamers out, but in reality, a lot of good people would never post either. For example I'm thinking of some threads we've had where a specific recording is discussed, and someone who worked on that record actually signs up and posts something just to answer someone question or clear up a misconception. These individuals have little time to post and probably can't contribute regularly, but because it's easy and free to sign up and post, they can say what they want to say and bow out. If a more elaborate signup procedure were established, which included paying, many people probably would not post. With fewer people contributing, the value of the site could then be called into question. Information is meant to be shared, and the more good people contribute their ideas and suggestions, the better. That's a big part of what makes these forums great, BESIDES the drawing power of great moderators like Craig, George, et al. I've seen more than one information service go down the tubes when people have to pay to use it, for this very reason. So that leads me to ask the question: CAN sites like these ever be profitable? Are people idiots for even trying to make them profitable? Is such information inherently better when it's free-flowing and spontaneous and easily shared? I have to conclude that I believe it is, even though as a developer I'd love to be able to make money from a web site. But then, all of the problems Craig mentions are still true: people obviously want and value forums like these, but they cost lots of money to run. How are the bills going to get paid if nobody sees a profit in them? Clearly, people are willing to put lots of time and effort into contributing to these sites even if they aren't paid. That people want these online communities and value them enough to put time into them, is not in question. The only question is how to pay for it. Perhaps this is one of those things that simply can't be looked at in terms of a capitalist model? Perhaps corporate, private or even government or university sponsorships should pay the bills. I run a mailing list out of a university's server and have access to all the web and database resources I want, for development purposes. Even though the services I run there are not directly related to "education", the university has the systems in place and considers information services like these (although mine are not audio related) to be of enough value to the general public, that they maintain the servers. Development is up to people like me who volunteer the time, and anyone may of course contribute. UEM obviously IS taking a long view of the situation here, but sometimes I wonder if they're making a big mistake in expecting that the site in itself will someday turn a profit. It can exist as a promotional tool for other UEM products, sure, but the obvious corporate mentality behind some of UEM's policies is not, IMO, helping this site much, even though they may be perfectly "justified" and realistic in a business sense. Perhaps UEM can start a nonprofit/educational arm for its information services and therefore write off the expenses of these forums? Just an idea to throw out there - to start thinking outside the box a little in terms of how these forums can both stay alive and be of the greatest benefit to everyone concerned. --Lee
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[quote]Originally posted by Lee Flier: [b]However, I still don't think it's a good idea, for reasons that Chip has alluded to: once you introduce payment into the equation, people will think twice before posting and/or becoming a member. You might think this would add to the quality of the posts because it would keep flamers out, but in reality, a lot of good people would never post either. For example I'm thinking of some threads we've had where a specific recording is discussed, and someone who worked on that record actually signs up and posts something just to answer someone question or clear up a misconception. [/b][/quote] That's exactly what I was thinking. In fact, erase the bit I posted earlier about putting a 24 hour "decontamination" (to quell spam) on newly registered people. Make it so people can register AND *instantly* post, so that these passers-by can still easily drop in. You can still quarantine newly registered people, but also quarantine their posts so you don't lose that immediacy. That is a really (important and) neat thing here, reading the occasional "hit and run" annecdotal bits from the actual participants of a recording. Or, allowing for the quick comment from a lurker. I don't see how you can retain that dynamic on a subscriber basis.

Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com

Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

 

/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien

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its that less than long term business outlook that has basically fucked the human race for decades... not just with the net but basically EVERY form of business. its not about quarterly earnings. its about future human development. i was talking with my friend the other day whose father was a leading authority of forestry. he quit the park service due to all the red tape and fought the short sighted thinking from the outside. now GENERATIONS later [hes 95 or so now] things are JUST starting to develop from his lifetime of work. clear cutting is becoming a thing of the past, new methods are being developed. more of the tree makes its way to product which in turns becomes MORE profitable than the excess waste of history. how that has anything to do with this, i have no idea. just a little rant against short term narrow-mindedness.

alphajerk

FATcompilation

"if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson

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<> Unfortunately, you can't retain that dynamic. However, remember that the hypothetical choice is not between losing a dynamic or not losing a dynamic, it's about have any dynamic at all vs. having no dynamic. But now Lee got me thinking along other lines. Manufacturers were willing to pony up membership dues in the MMA. It seems to me that perhaps manufacturers could contribute enough to make this happen (when you split the bucks among even 50 companies, each share would be not that significant to them); and what's in it for them is the mother of all market research vehicles, particularly for computer-based stuff (by definition, everyone here is using a computer and interested in music.)
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[quote]Originally posted by Anderton: [b]Unfortunatlely, you can't retain that dynamic. However, remember that the hypothetical choice is not between losing a dynamic or not losing a dynamic, it's about have any dynamic at all vs. having no dynamic.[/b][/quote] I disagree, I think there are other options. Voluntary membership, the "share ware" scheme I posited. [b]and what's in it for them is the mother of all market research vehicles, particularly for computer-based stuff (by definition, everyone here is using a computer and interested in music.)[/b] I would think that if the popularity of this board is such that it warrants expensive servers and bandwidth, one should be able to attract advertisers with it? Again, this is the most narrow targeted audience they're going to get on the internet for their product, moreso than anywhere else even - I assume musicplayer has a marketing guy that has focused on these areas? Why isn't there a Protools ad? Cubase? Fender or Line6?

Guitar Lessons in Augusta Georgia: www.chipmcdonald.com

Eccentric blog: https://chipmcdonaldblog.blogspot.com/

 

/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien

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lets also look at television. it was a decade before it started to turn a profit. it was many more decades before someone could actually CHARGE for it, still the networks are "free" through antennas. as for manufacturers making donations... i wonder how they would feel about being openingly flogged on here?

alphajerk

FATcompilation

"if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson

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[quote]Originally posted by Anderton: [b]Unfortunatlely, you can't retain that dynamic. However, remember that the hypothetical choice is not between losing a dynamic or not losing a dynamic, it's about have any dynamic at all vs. having no dynamic.[/b][/quote] I disagree. What I was trying to say is that what happens in reality is it becomes about having no dynamic today vs. having no dynamic tomorrow. In other words, start restricting the flow of information (by restricting membership to those who pay) and the quality of the discussion - the very thing you are "selling" - will be lessened, and therefore people will gradually lose interest. The "old" members who've been here all along would probably stick around, but some would drop off and you'd have a hard time finding others to take their place, as they haven't been "hooked in" to the community all this time. It's a conundrum, I know. But I've been at this Internet thing for awhile now and I don't see a way around it, and neither did any of the original creators of the Internet - all of whom worked for nonprofit outfits. [quote][b]But now Lee got me thinking along other lines. Manufacturers will willing to pony up membership dues in the MMA. It seems to me that perhaps manufacturers could contribute enough to make this happen (when you split the bucks among even 50 companies, each share would be not that significant to them); and what's in it for them is the mother of all market research vehicles, particularly for computer-based stuff (by definition, everyone here is using a computer and interested in music.)[/b][/quote] Now you're talking! I don't think that idea is out of the question. I definitely think the information that is exchanged around here is valuable to EVERYBODY concerned - audio professionals, studio owners, record labels, gear manufacturers, etc. If I owned any of the above companies I'd not only pay something to keep the site running, I'd hire somebody to spend a good deal of their time combing these forums for useful information. --Lee [ 11-27-2001: Message edited by: Lee Flier ]
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<> Most of the shareware authors I've spoken with claim a dismal rate of return...but who knows. <> Because they're strapped too. Unless they get click-throughs, they're not interested; and the internet, rightly or wrongly, has a stench of commercial failure associated with it that makes manufacturers wary. And when the ad guys DID convince some manufacturers to sponsor forums, they were hassled mercilessly by some of you -- check out Fletcher's early posts in the audio education forum, along with similar ones from others, if you want a classic example of how to drive away the hand that feeds you. So basically, what I'm getting from all this is that if SSS goes away, just let it be -- the world's not ready to regard the internet as anything but free. Trying to overcome that, either by manufacturer arm-twisting, begging people to send in contributions, or setting up a paid service that most of you clearly don't want, would likely just be a waste of time in the long run.
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Chip wrote: <> Chip, I would think this can be a double-edged sword for the marketing depts. of the said products.(ProTools, Cubase, etc.) Alot of these companies are perfectly aware of the hastiness that some of their products were 'rushed to market', in order to keep up with the latest audio technologies/craze, and a scrutinizing 'under the microscope' by the forum members here could have the product dead and buried even before an official release. I would think the 'consumer grade' audio mfrs. would find it a safer bet to do their advertising in an demographic of less informed people. (not that we here are so smart, but one bad experience with a new product by one disgruntled customer could be broadcast to ten of thousands of people, whether it is right or wrong, not good news for the 'unit shifters'.) On the other side of that coin are the high-line esoteric audio products, where complete confidence is held with their products, and their reputation is so good among audio pros., they really don't need to, or have a desire to mass market their wares on a popular site like this one. They are not interested in doing big number sales & possibly forfieting positive customer reputation. (The wiser companies know they can't do big numbers in sales, and keep quality control intact, and I believe alot of the best audio mfrs. prefer their narrow-market, 'niche' status.) It's a tough sell either way, IMO. Just another hypothetical rambling, Matt
In two days, it won't matter.
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[quote]Originally posted by alphajerk: [b] as for manufacturers making donations... i wonder how they would feel about being openingly flogged on here?[/b][/quote] If they're smart, they'll welcome it. A wise company [i]learns[/i] from things of this nature. Gripes about products and customer service show them where to improve, and that information can be absolutely [i]vital[/i]. Kudos are nice, but I'd rather hear the complaints so that I can address the underlying problems than to have the dissatisfied customers NOT say anything and remain "blissfully ignorant" while my dissatisfied customers go away and complain (unbeknownst to me) to others in their individual circle of influence. IMO, it takes 20 - 30 people to just RAVE about how good you are to cancel out the negative effect on your business from just one vocally dissatisfied customer. Think about it - If I tell you all that I went to dinner at Burger King and had a great experience, fantastic food, served promptly, tasted great... blah blah, and then someone else comes in the next day and says that they went to McDonalds and found a chicken head in their chicken mcnuggets, and the manager said "so what?" and was rude, and they got overcharged to boot.... what are you likely to remember next week when you're thinking about where to go for lunch? You're more likely to remember the negative experience you heard about than you are the positive one. Heck, the story is so "juicy" that people will probably tell several OTHER people who may tell even more people... I would support this site. I'd pay as a business owner, because it HAS been valuable to me from a "research" standpoint - not just for the questions I get answered and the techniques I learn, but from the marketing angle. It allows me to see where people are at and where things are headed. I'd imagine that such information would be even more valuable to equipment manufacturers because of the product feedback and unbiased customer perceptions of their company. Selling banner ads? I'd buy one in support of the site - even though from a purely "marketing" aspect it doesn't make much sense for me - most of my customer base is in So CA, although I do get some from all over N. America. But if that's the price, I'd be willing to pay it to support SSS. There's more benefit to me than just adding clients to my calendar. Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA pokeefe777@ssrstudio.com [ 11-27-2001: Message edited by: pokeefe777@msn.com ]
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[b]I would think this can be a double-edged sword for the marketing depts. of the said products.(ProTools, Cubase, etc.) Alot of these companies are perfectly aware of the hastiness that some of their products were 'rushed to market', in order to keep up with the latest audio technologies/craze, and a scrutinizing 'under the microscope' by the forum members here could have the product dead and buried even before an official release.[/b] There'd be much less of a chance of that happening if more manufacturers had representatives openly participating in the forums. Believe me - I know from first-hand experience. By putting in a bit of time each day, the marketing folks from each company have access to the following: A) a great place to do very focused and pretty accurately targeted market research, and stay directly in touch with a very diverse and pretty large sample of actual end-users of not only their products, but their competitor's products as well! B) a place to tell their story and control any potential bad spin by being communicative and actually putting a human face on their faceless corporation. Even if that means coming clean every once in a while... I did this for years when I was with Alesis, and when I was with Kurzweil as well. It always yielded much, much more positive results than negative ones. The more open that I was, the happier that people seemed to be (Hey, Craig - remember the 1.05 ADAT XT software thread from the AOL days?). Sure, there was some negative feedback, but [i]that's gonna be there anyway[/i]; and, at least if a company has someone watching and posting, they can quickly quash any misinformation - of which there's more than you might think. They can also potentially help minimize damage from negatively skewed posts by making sure that people are informed as to the facts. Besides, it has been my experience that people tend to be generally nicer when they know there's an actual responsive person listening. Jeff Klopmeyer from TASCAM's presence here is a perfect example of the benefits of having an inside manufacturer participate...don't you all think it's cool that if you have a specific TASCAM question that there's someone here to answer it? Same with Mike Martin from Kurzweil in my forum, or Tom Cram from DBX in the EQ forums, and a few others as well. These guys do this [i]voluntarily[/i], not because they're told to do so. I think that it's great that they care enough to be here, and I am certain that as a result of their participation that they are more in touch with their markets than their competitors. I'll even go so far as to say that I believe that any manufacturer who is [i]not[/i] openly participating is doing themselves and their companies a great disservice. BTW - I know that there are quite a few of them who lurk... dB [ 11-27-2001: Message edited by: Dave Bryce ]

:snax:

 

:keys:==> David Bryce Music • Funky Young Monks <==:rawk:

 

 

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[quote]Originally posted by popmusic: [b] As an example, none of the posters asked to upgrade the forums (I'm assuming the upgrade wasn't free or cheap), so I imagine that was a lot of money that needs to be recouped via ads, membership fees, or elsewhere... [/b][/quote] Actually, the upgrade of the actual software was "free" in that it's included in our yearly subscription to UBB upgrades & support. The actual upgrade process was "free" also, in that it only took my time. But there are some costs associated with the home page registration in that we're still cleaning it up to work with the UBB registration properly. The bozos that first built it never added a check in the registration that first checks to see if a chosen "handle", i.e., log in ID for the Forums, was ever chose...so that's why a few weeks ago we had a problem with duplicate users, since we had a few "Tom"'s and other nickname handles...
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Well now... my apologies to you, Craig, (again!!) for 'bumping it to the top', but I just gotta get something off my chest. I just spent the last twenty minutes responding to Tom Capasso's reply to my rant on the Bass Forum, a reply in which I expressed my regret at having even started this thread. And I have regreted it, and felt like some sort of criminal the whole while, mostly because I've felt that I'd taken something very valuable to everyone here... time. I felt this way until about five minutes ago. I just reread all of the posts on this thread, and quite frankly have been amazed at the sheer quantity, and quality, of the ideas that have been posted. Outstanding, in my opinion. I find it hard to believe that anything would ever happen to SSS... not with the amazing ideas and heartfelt... passion, that I've seen represented here. So go ahead and SPANK ME, dammit!!! :D I won't care! :D :D :D Steve (where's my tissues?...)
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[quote][i]Originally posted by Anderton:[/i] So basically, what I'm getting from all this is that if SSS goes away, just let it be -- the world's not ready to regard the internet as anything but free. Trying to overcome that, either by manufacturer arm-twisting, begging people to send in contributions, or setting up a paid service that most of you clearly don't want, would likely just be a waste of time in the long run.[/quote] [b]Craig[/b], you might want to look at the totals clinically rather than emotionally. Here's what they are (I just went through the entire thread): [b]Would Pay:[/b] jrafferty@uswest.net pokeefe777@msn.com soapbox Tedster NYC Drew ricknbokker 'rold Hippie John Paterno Stratman Lee Flier [b]Indicated They Would Pay (but didn't specifically say so):[/b] dansouth@yahoo.com spacebass [b]Would Pay (under the following conditions):[/b] Chip McDonald ("I wouldn't pay for it as it stands right now...I'd *pay* to read daily articles by the moderators and to have their opinion on things...while I would not pay for this site if forced to do so, *I would try to donate something otherwise*.") Danny M ("It might make me have to leave for a while, but once I have some more disposable income, I'd be back.") [b]On The Fence:[/b] popmusic ("who knows -- maybe I'd join, maybe not") [b]Wouldn't Pay:[/b] alphajerk That looks like pretty strong support to me! I think that most of the debate here centers around the particulars of setting up such a system, or whether or not it's a good idea, not about whether or not we'd pay. [b]Craig[/b], I understand why you are sensitive. We all deserve to be paid for our work; and if we're not being paid, we don't feel valued. However, contrary to the impression you're getting, it seems obvious to me that we [b]all[/b] value you and this site. After all, the one person who has said categorically that he would not pay, [b]alphajerk[/b], has already paid the most in time spent here as the king of post count. If that's not an indication he values being here, I don't know what is. I think for some, it's a matter of ideology rather than how much you and this site are valued. My two cents (or $3 a month), Geoff

Enthusiasm powers the world.

 

Craig Anderton's Archiving Article

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yeah phil, kinda like how sweetwater bent me over and fucked me hard last week. gave the bastards another chance and they blew it. i have had mind to post a thread about the incident but havent had the time. oh well, they just lost a shitload of sales as im getting started on my upgrade path... a cool $20k for my first purchase.

alphajerk

FATcompilation

"if god is truly just, i tremble for the fate of my country" -thomas jefferson

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[quote]Originally posted by Anderton: [b] Most of the shareware authors I've spoken with claim a dismal rate of return...but who knows. [/b][/quote] I personally know a few that haven't done bad. Eudora is still around. Id software hasn't done bad... [b]Because they're strapped too. Unless they get click-throughs, they're not interested; and the internet, rightly [/b] One doesn't get click throughs from magazine ads, either... [b]DID convince some manufacturers to sponsor forums, they were hassled mercilessly by some of you -- check out Fletcher's early posts in the audio education forum, along with similar ones from others, if you want a classic example of how to drive away the hand that feeds you.[/b] Hmm. I would think a manufacturer should be smart enough to realize that regardless of where they advertise there's going to be potential for criticism; seeing it in print hurts but at the same time there is a very well targeted demographic here they can't reach otherwise. Regardless if they advertise or not, if they're derided they're derided. That's interesting; they didn't have anyone in their organization that could have come on to defend them? Hmm. I would think there would be ideal companies as candidates for advertising here, some not so ideal. Mackie, Joe Meek, Marshall microphones, Mark McQuilken... If I have to consider checking what I say versus potential advertisers - I'm not going to do that. [b] begging people to send in contributions, or setting up a paid service that most of you clearly don't want, would likely just be a waste of time in the long run.[/b] Begging people to send in contributions? It doesn't seem like you've had to ask for anything at all and had people volunteer.

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/ "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien

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Hmmm...I just reread my post above; and I noticed that it could be perceived in some ways as an attack and in other ways as a show of support, depending on the mind's voice with which it was read. [b]Craig[/b], please take it as a show of support. It is amazing to me how often posts can be colored by the perception of the reader this way. Emoticons help, but they only go so far...

Enthusiasm powers the world.

 

Craig Anderton's Archiving Article

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