First gig back

[Eric Jx]

A recap:

We lost our lead singer about 6 months ago. After endless auditions, we found a replacement and have spent the last few months getting her up to speed on our repetoire. Last night was her first gig with us.

 

We've played this venue a number of times before. While the $$$ isn't as good as other places we've played, I still like playing there because we always pack the place, and the crowd there is always ultra-responsive to our music. We figured it would be a smart to start out in front of a forgiving crowd in case the singer had the opening night gitters.

 

My honest opinion was it was a rough night for her. There were pitch issues on and off through the night. There was a song where she sang the same verse twice. It also seemed that her voice fatiqued as the night wore on and her vocal cords tightened up on her. Our previous lead singer came down to see us, and she didn't volunteer her opinion, which I think was telling.

 

I do have to give her credit for performing under trying conditions. Earlier in the week one of her close friends suddenly died. The funeral was Yesterday afternoon. So basically she came from a funeral to the gig. Given the circumstances, the other band members and I are choosing to keep our opinion of her performance to ourselves and accentuate the positives when speaking to her.

 

Now for the second issue of the night. The mix was very bottom heavy. I have to think that there was something really quirky about the acoustics of the space. There were times when the guitarist would strum a certain chord, and the sound would all of a sudden drastically change volume and timbre, and it would almost seem to originate from somewhere else besides his amp. He'd work through a chord progression E-B-C#-G#. The E and the G# would sound normal. The B and the C# would sound like a bass explosion. It was not a subtle thing...at least from where I was sitting.

 

The guitarist claims that he turned the bass EQ on his head all the way down to try to combat the low frequency problem. I have to assume this particular pot does nothing because it didn't make a difference. I even had the guitarist move his amp, in between sets, to the other side of the drummer, against a different wall. The problems remain. There were large glass windows behind us...I know that isn't ideal acoustically but we've played this venue before and setup in the same exact location and never had this issue. However the guitarist WAS using a new amp. Maybe it was some synergy between the new amp and the space that created these unwanted peaks.

 

This was also our first gig with our new SRM450s. They worked out well. I was a little worried that having the new speakers would give some band members the impression that it would be ok to play louder. However I think, at least for last night, that wasn't an issue.

 

 

[mate stubb]

Would this new guitar amp happen to have a open back, where the old one didn't?

[Eric Jx]

Would this new guitar amp happen to have a open back, where the old one didn't?

 

I don't know. I'll ask.

[Sven Golly]

Now for the second issue of the night. The mix was very bottom heavy. I have to think that there was something really quirky about the acoustics of the space. There were times when the guitarist would strum a certain chord, and the sound would all of a sudden drastically change volume and timbre, and it would almost seem to originate from somewhere else besides his amp. He'd work through a chord progression E-B-C#-G#. The E and the G# would sound normal. The B and the C# would sound like a bass explosion. It was not a subtle thing...at least from where I was sitting.

 

Aside from Moe's amp question, which was one of my first thoughts as well, were you on a stage (perhaps made of hollow, carpeted wooden (plywood) risers)? Were you in the corner of the room? What was the ceiling like... high with open girders/metal roofing? Low with drywall?

 

Lots of factors can contribute to standing waves causing emphasis of certain frequencies.

 

[Eric Jx]

Aside from Moe's amp question, which was one of my first thoughts as well, were you on a stage (perhaps made of hollow, carpeted wooden (plywood) risers)? Were you in the corner of the room? What was the ceiling like... high with open girders/metal roofing? Low with drywall?

 

Lots of factors can contribute to standing waves causing emphasis of certain frequencies.

 

We were not on a stage. It was just a hardwood floor. We were setup in the corner of the room. Directly behind us were large expanses of divide light windows. Nearby some of the wall is paneled, but a good part of the venue walls are exposed brick.

 

If I had to guess at the ceiling height, I'd say 12 feet. The ceiling has wooden beams running in both directions (checkerboard pattern) with stamped copper in the boxes.

[ProfD]

Pitch and a strong voice are primary attributes of a good singer. I would be surprised if these problems didn't show up during rehearsals.

 

If this singer was the best among those auditioned, maybe she will develop over time. Great if the band/gigs allow for learning on the job.

[Eric Jx]

I would be surprised if these problems didn't show up during rehearsals.

 

That thought crossed my mind last night. There was a moment where I was thinking "How could I not catch this during rehersals?"

 

Ultimately I've concluded that I/we didn't catch it because the pitch problems weren't there during rehersals. As for her voice giving out at the end of the night, that could be another matter. We never really get a chance to practice 3 whole set lists worth of material in a single rehersal session, so may not be accustomed to singing over that long of a span.

 

I've seen our previous 2 singers improve over time. I'm pretty sure it will happen with her as well. She has stated she doesn't enjoy singing hair-metal stuff, and it really doesn't suit her voice. I think she would do better once the setlists are tweak to highlight her strong points. I've asked her to pick the next handful of songs to add.

 

 

[ProfD]

She has stated she doesn't enjoy singing hair-metal stuff, and it really doesn't suit her voice. I think she would do better once the setlists are tweak to highlight her strong points. I've asked her to pick the next handful of songs to add.

Therein lies the reason we need so much information when it comes to diagnosing these cases.

 

Had I known she was singing material that wasn't suited for her voice, the pitch problems and voice fatigue would have made sense.

 

It would help if the band finds more songs that fit her comfort level as a singer. She does have potential considering she took a shot at the existing repertoire.

[mate stubb]

Also, it's hard for ANY singer to sing every song for a several hour gig.

 

Give her a break every few tunes and have somebody else sing lead.

[Eric Jx]

Also, it's hard for ANY singer to sing every song for a several hour gig.

 

Give her a break every few tunes and have somebody else sing lead.

 

We have 2 other singers capable of handling leads. Looking over the setlists from last night, someone else took lead vocals on 4 out of the 11 songs in the first set, 3 out of the 13 songs in set #2, and 2 out of 11 in set #3.

 

So we do offer her a break. However I think in the future we need to spread out the male lead vocal songs more, moving a few more to set #3.

 

[J. Dan]

As you play more often, here voice will get stronger over time. For me, there is no practice like live gigs. Even stuff I struggle with vocally in practice, usually after doing it a couple times on stage I do great with it.

 

What are you using for monitors? Is it possible that her pitch problems could have been related to the bass frequency issues? If you can't hear yourself very well it's harder to control your pitch.

 

Were the bass frequency issues ONLY showing up with the guitar, or the overall mix?

[Tonysounds]

Singing is a very different animal;if you thought things sounded weird acoustically, imagine how difficult it would be if you were the lead vocalist: keyboards are "fixed pitch" instruments, you hit a C, it's a C, but voices are 'relative pitch' instruments, you key off of what you hear, so if hearing things is difficult, count on it affecting vocals. And the obvious has already been mentioned: singing all nite at a gig is a lot different than rehearsing, and is much more taxing physically; if she hasn't been gigging in six months while rehearsing with you, count on that being a factor, and like any other muscle, her voice will become stronger and have more stamina the more gigs (games/tournaments/competitions) she does.

 

GOOD LUCK!

[Eric Jx]

As you play more often, here voice will get stronger over time. For me, there is no practice like live gigs. Even stuff I struggle with vocally in practice, usually after doing it a couple times on stage I do great with it.

 

What are you using for monitors? Is it possible that her pitch problems could have been related to the bass frequency issues? If you can't hear yourself very well it's harder to control your pitch.

 

Were the bass frequency issues ONLY showing up with the guitar, or the overall mix?

 

She has a SRM150 mounted to her mic stand. She didn't complain about not hearing herself, but I'll talk to her about it on wednesday and make sure she could.

 

I believe the bass frequency issues were limited to the guitar. I also thought the bass player was too loud, but at least his sound was crisp and consistent.

 

I asked the guitarist about whether his cabinets were open or closed.

 

He says that the cabinet he used last night was closed (it's a marshall). The one he used in previous gigs was also closed (It's a randall). He's going to try the randall head with the marshall cab for our next gig. However our next gig is at a different venue, so that might not do anything to isolate the cause.

 

 

 

 

[J. Dan]

He's going to try the randall head with the marshall cab for our next gig. However our next gig is at a different venue, so that might not do anything to isolate the cause.

 

If you really want to trouble shoot the issue fully, I'd have him use the SAME setup at the next gig and see if the problem exists in a different venue. If it does, it's the amp. He could have the randall head on-hand in case the problem remains and is unbearable, he could change it out during break and see what difference it makes.

[Eric Jx]

He's going to try the randall head with the marshall cab for our next gig. However our next gig is at a different venue, so that might not do anything to isolate the cause.

 

If you really want to trouble shoot the issue fully, I'd have him use the SAME setup at the next gig and see if the problem exists in a different venue. If it does, it's the amp. He could have the randall head on-hand in case the problem remains and is unbearable, he could change it out during break and see what difference it makes.

 

That's an interesting idea (bringing both heads to the next venue).

 

I'm not sure I want to give him any additional reasons to fuss with his gear once the show starts.

 

The sound issues were bad enough last night. However when our guitarist isn't happy with his sound, he gets very distracted. He's incapable of just living with it as is and is constantly turning dials and adjusting it. Between songs, and even in the middle of songs. He'll stop playing for a measure or two IN THE MIDDLE OF A SONG, to adjust some knob. It drives me crazy. Furthermore, once he decides his sound isn't right, it becomes the excuse for everything. Forgot to sing his part? It's the amp's fault. Ending a song too early? Wrong chord? It's the amp. I'm not exaggerating.

 

 

[J. Dan]

I'm not sure I want to give him any additional reasons to fuss with his gear once the show starts.

 

Would you be able to tell during sound check, and swap it if necessary before the show starts? That would give you the info you need moving forward, and hopefully prevent him from being distracted once things get moving. I'm a little skeptical regarding the amp head though. I would be more suspicious of the cabinet. I don't really have a solid technical reason for thinking that - just my gut.

[Eric Jx]

Would you be able to tell during sound check, and swap it if necessary before the show starts? That would give you the info you need moving forward, and hopefully prevent him from being distracted once things get moving. I'm a little skeptical regarding the amp head though. I would be more suspicious of the cabinet. I don't really have a solid technical reason for thinking that - just my gut.

 

I have a lot less experience than you, but my gut tells me the same thing. It just seems unlikely that audio circuitry would create massive resonance like that unless it was specifically designed to.

 

However I am curious to know why turning down the lows on the head's EQ had no apparent effect on his tone.

 

 

 

 

[J. Dan]

However I am curious to know why turning down the lows on the head's EQ had no apparent effect on his tone.

 

Might have just not been affecting the range of the frequencies you were hearing - could have been above or below them. It's kind of odd anyway to get that much bass from a guitar - but any sealed box will likely give you more bass than an open back. Could try an EQ pedal with more frequency bands to pinpoint the offending frequency range. Or see what specific notes seem to do worst. In the example you gave earlier, were those the actual offending chords, or where you just making up an example? Another thing to remember is that at high levels, the amp will interact with the guitar as well - kind of like feedback, but before feedback occurs, you can have resonance.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

regards singer

 

Hope I may help as a previous singing teacher.

 

The biggest most important thing to do is to make sure that you play your songs in her key...not the key you have always been playing it..ie the guitarist says its too hard to change key because its a difficult fingering.

Tough its now her key..no arguing.

 

The singers needs come first because this is a human instrument. You cannot expect a singer to sing in an uncomfortable key...either change to the singers key..or loose the song.

Sorry but it is`now the new singers call, some will be too timid to say, experienced singers will demand to change the key or try alternatives. I made this imperative in my new band that all singers pick the key.

 

Secondly as previously mentioned make sure she can hear herself correctly,very important. But with the same clarity as front of house.

 

Forbid her from drinking hot or cold drinks between sets or onstage...that means no iced drinks, no hot coffees.

And water is`the best drink for singers....being dehydrated by soft drinks or alcohol is very counter productive to throats and mouths.

 

Keep her from talking between sets, especially if background sound or music is loud [last gig I had to apologize for not talking to my guests between the last sets as the background music meant I was talking loudly and I could feel strain in trying to get over the background.

 

I find sucking Soothers on way to gig is good, but not at gig if stomach is empty. This is a personal aid..perhaps it is a placebo effect for me too.

 

And very importantly to someone who is treating vocals as a career or semi career is to have weekly singing lessons, if you cant sing using your diaphram then you will definately have throat problems..this is the simplest way to combat sore throat and fatigue...and guess what the side affect is her voice will increase in volume and tone with the various exercises given to her.. so simple...

 

As she sounds like she is not a professional at this stage,but performing regularily if she is not prepared to do lessons then she is not prepared to put in the hard yards....this is different to self taught musos [instruments]...your body/voice can be destroyed by incorrect techniques, nodules, sore throats etc... once badly damaged it may never be right again. incorrect technique on instruments generally does not lead to body harm as quickly as in singing..

 

PS. give a new singer slack on double verses, missed q's etc in first gig, man that will come with time and practice, but its her voice you should be pandering too, too much practice in an inadequate studio, can be very damaging to a singer, screaming over a loud band, or an inadequate PA will stuff a singer right up, if she honestly cant do too many practises especially before a gig then practice your playing instead...if she says 2 takes of a song is enough..listen.

 

If a singer goes out at a gig or before gig then you have lost the signature sound of your band...seriously the audiences are only interested in the vocals. [why do you think karaoke and American Idol are so successful]..its nothing to do with the music. yes its true...

 

If your vocals suck or cant be justified as quirky then you are likely to be dismissed as "not up to it"

 

What all this means is...

The Singer comes first..Sorry but it's true.

 

 

[Eric Jx]

AussieKeys,

Thank you for your advice.

 

I do understand that most audience members pay attention to the vocals, and if the vocals aren't on, it doesn't matter what the rest of the band does. We have adjusted the key on a few of our songs to suit the singer's range, and introduced the guitarist to a Capo. We also scrapped a few songs that were not working with her. One of the things I like about her is she will speak her mind. She's respectful about it, but I feel that she'll let us know if she's unhappy or uncomfortable about something. As an example, she told us that she feels we have too many hair-metal songs in our song list, where our previous singer only made mention of this on the way out the door.

 

I will pass along your suggestions about what to drink during gigs and also tell her to be careful about trying to converse over the house music between sets.

 

Our singer is in other band, but it's more of a supporting role. She sings backup on most songs, and only has a handful where she takes lead. I know that the bass player in the other band suggested she get singing lessons, and she dismissed the idea because of her tight financial situation.

[Eric Jx]

Or see what specific notes seem to do worst. In the example you gave earlier, were those the actual offending chords, or where you just making up an example?

 

That's the chord progession to a song in our set list. During that song, I noticed the resonance came and went when the chords changed, and it was predictable. I'm just not sure if it was the B and the C# or the B and the G#.

[J. Dan]

Or see what specific notes seem to do worst. In the example you gave earlier, were those the actual offending chords, or where you just making up an example?

 

That's the chord progession to a song in our set list. During that song, I noticed the resonance came and went when the chords changed, and it was predictable. I'm just not sure if it was the B and the C# or the B and the G#.

 

Well, it depends on how he was voicing them, but if it was around B to C#, the lowest fundamentals are going to be in the 120-140 Hz Range if you want to play with an EQ. Something else to note, also depending on how he was voicing it, it's likely that on those chords he was muting the E string and using the A string for the fundamental of a chord. Misadjusted pickups or setup (string height) can make some strings louder and/or have different tone than others. Easy way to check at the next gig, just have him play each string open, one at a time, and see if his A string booms compared to the others.

[Eric Jx]

Misadjusted pickups or setup (string height) can make some strings louder and/or have different tone than others. Easy way to check at the next gig, just have him play each string open, one at a time, and see if his A string booms compared to the others.

 

Hmmm...

The guitarist was using a different guitar. The previous practice he showed up with an ibanez that I've never seen before. He just got it back from an auto body shop. He had them paint the body. He mentioned something about the neck being warped, and he had to shim the back to correct it. I'm not sure if it's something he did himself, or if he paid someone who knew what they were doing.

[Eric Jx]

An update on this weird guitar issue.

 

Today at practice the guitarist brings in a different guitar. This isn't the guitar he used at our last gig. It's also not the amp he used at our last gig.

 

We were playing "easy Lover" (phil collins and phil bailey).

 

Every time the guitarist hits the Fm7 chord, we get the boom that I mentioned at the gig. (I say Fm7 because that's what I'm playing. I think he was just playing the root and the 5th).

 

We stopped and attempted to isolate the issue, but we had to move on because it was eating up too much practice time.

 

We had him play solo, and oddly it really wasn't noticeable unless everbody else was playing. I think he subconsciously was playing different when all eye were focused on him.

 

 

 

[J. Dan]

Is it possible it could be picked up by something else, like one of the mics? Or maybe not the guitar, maybe the bass - which is why it is only when everybody else was playing? Did you try having the bass player play by himself?

[Eric Jx]

Is it possible it could be picked up by something else, like one of the mics? Or maybe not the guitar, maybe the bass - which is why it is only when everybody else was playing? Did you try having the bass player play by himself?

 

We asked the bass player to play alone as well. There was no boom when he played. Also he doesn't hold out the F so the effect doesn't quite align with what he's playing.

 

Next time I'll have to experiment with the mics. Have everybody play, but mute each mic in turn to see if the effect goes away.

 

Interesting..he was playing the F with the A string as the fundamental, which is something you brought up previously. I believe he played the other chords in the progression (Bb and C) rooted with the E string.

[Bill H.]

There may be a standing wave problem with the guitar - and those usually aren't uniform throughout the whole room. The next time you hear one note just boom out, walk around and see if it only occurs in your location or if it's everywhere. It's possible that this isn't a big deal. If it is, raising the speaker cab off the floor will eliminate boundary coupling and should help. I know - the last thing you want to do is get a Marshall cab up in the air

 

Don't panic over a singer's first night. As a singer, even after all these years I'll find myself pushing my vocals rather than relaxing if I'm a little nervous. And to top off the first gig jitters, you guys threw your former singer in the audience to really make her jumpy! I can imagine -

 

Anyway if she worked out in rehearsal she will work out on the gig after things settle down.