Michael Jackson covers? Was he a composer?

[richwhite9]

Jackson write four of the songs on Thriller: Beat It, Billy Jean, Wanne Be Startin Something and The Girl is Mine.

 

On the earlier 'Off the Wall' Jackson wrote two tracks: 'She's out of my Life' and the album track 'Workin' Day and Night'.

 

While demos were multi-tracked that doesn't mean Jackson performed them or that the demos were the first versions of any of the songs some of which were kicking around for a few years.

 

As Wikipedia puts it: 'Jackson claimed that when the melody of "Don't Stop 'til You Get Enough" came to him, he couldn't shake it off. He found himself humming and singing it whilst walking through the Jacksons' Encino home. As Michael could not play, he had his brother Randy perform the melody on a piano in the family's recording studio.'

 

 

[cnegrad]

(Ok, this could start an interesting conversation.)

 

Premise: It all depends on what your definition of "songwriting" is. If a vocalist who doesn't play any instruments sings a melodic line to a keyboardist who then harmonizes it, is the vocalist a songwriter?

 

My own personal response would be that it depends how much of a contribution the vocalist made to the song. Only those present at the time would know how much of a real contribution MJ made.

 

All that said, I loved Michael's vocals in his Jackson 5 era, and loved "Off The Wall" for Q's production. MJ was a great entertainer and I'm happy to leave it at that. I hope he finds peace in the hereafter, because he certainly didn't have any here on Earth...

[zephonic]

Michael had a narcissistic personality, he was vain, manipulative, had a huge ego, and was very concerned about his public image. I suspect he relied on ghost writers and worked to propagate the myth that he wrote his own material, like many of his heros who actually did write their own songs such as Stevie Wonder and The Beatles.

 

You're wrong. I don't know where your animosity towards MJ comes from, but he has certainly written the songs I mentioned earlier.

He has a readily identifiable style that is uniquely his own. His songs are harmonically simple, but his sense of rhythm and the way he phrases is what sets his stuff apart from the rest.

Who could write something like "Wanna be startin'something"? That's just all him.

 

[SHaka40]

Greatest dancer? He stole from James Brown, Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly, the Nicholas Brothers etc. I think he "stole" from the best songwriters, as well, and arranged them into songs he claims he wrote.

 

Yeah, that's right. Just today I was listening to the radio, and you know what? All the hit songs used the same 12 notes that I always use. Where's my lawyer, I'm going to sue somebody...

 

 

--Dave

+1 Dave. I do not know of any artist--singer, dancer, musician, or otherwise--that hasn't "stole" (if that's the word you want to use) from those that have come before them. Whether that be from the organist that you hear once a week at your church, or those lengedary dancers that moj named, "stealing" is how we ALL learn to perform. I mean do you think that James Brown or Fred Astaire came out of the womb moving their feet they way they did? Or do you think they had influences that they learned and stole from? I'd guess the latter. And it certainly doesn't (nor should it) stop them from being amongst the greatest dancers! IMO, it's all about what you can add to the things you've stolen, and whether or not you can develop your own identity as a performer. And I certainly don't think you can deny that MJ succeeded at doing just that!

[d halfnote]

If you guys want to give examples to prove me wrong feel free but it's not necessary. I don't feel it takes anything away from how great he was for me to have this opinion.

Since none of us were there or involved, that's an impossibility , of course.

I refer back to my earlier point that composing melodies, harmonies, etc., doesn't require particularly adept instrumental skills, or even instrumental skills at all.

Of course, MJ had some very skilled collaborators & in hot-house cretaive situations I doubt many are keeping exact notes on the development of everything.

It's unlikely they're gonna parse all this for us.

 

There's a similar debate occuring on another forum.

I find it interesting that a comparable team effort (The Beatles), has not been the subject of such speculation, that I've known.

For instance, did John Lennon compose "I Am The Walrus" or, by dint of his arranging & orchestration, did George Martin?

 

Michael had a narcissistic personality, he was vain, manipulative, had a huge ego, and was very concerned about his public image. I suspect he relied on ghost writers and worked to propagate the myth that he wrote his own material, like many of his heros who actually did write their own songs such as Stevie Wonder and The Beatles.

Your first sentence's not untrue but is only one side of things.

I suspect no one will dissuade you from the opinion expressed in the second, eh?

Again, none of us know.

Given that, why would it be so important to insist he couldn't have done any of this?

 

 

[JeffLearman]

no disrespect intended but honestly the above examples don't help, what makes you think that Billy Jean demo (the music track) was done alone?

 

You mean it might have started as a vocal over piano and someone was hired to do a simple bass synth, synth chords, and drum beat? After several scratch vocals another synth line is added, the drum beat fussed with and then someone comes in to add a then ubiquitous Niles Rogers style chicken scratch guitar? Maybe another pass on vocals and lyrics and it's then polished enough to copyright and pass on to Quincy Jones?

 

I know I said I retire but I'll respond quickly to this.

 

To me, without really knowing, it seems like Michael was hanging with someone who plays. Michael chooses a drum machine preset and beat boxes the parts. Dude in the studio plays keyboard parts to match what Michael's conveying (like the Bass line and keyboard parts or were they inspired by Michael's beatbox?). Dude in the studio plays the guitar part (or someone is hired to add guitar). Michael starts singing his melody and the keyboard player harmonizes it (Bridge).

Which isn't really all that different from what Paul Simon did for some of his collaborative albums (e.g., Graceland). Mechanically different, yes, and in Simon's case, we *know* the dude can pen his own tunes.

 

I suspect that MJ was the core inspiration for the tunes he's credited with, and that others helped, but without MJ it would not have been at all, whereas with another this-or-that player, it might have been much the same.

 

I'm trying to remember who I just saw on TV saying MJ was an intuitive genius with melody, harmony, and rhythm. Might have been QJ. I'd sure like to hear someone like him say that about me!

 

But, I have no information or knowledge; just guessing. No doubt there's a number of different sides to the "truth" here.

[richwhite9]

 

Which isn't really all that different from what Paul Simon did for some of his collaborative albums (e.g., Graceland). Mechanically different, yes, and in Simon's case, we *know* the dude can pen his own tunes.......

 

 

But, I have no information or knowledge; just guessing. No doubt there's a number of different sides to the "truth" here.

 

A singer can pretty much get away with a sparse acoustic guitar or piano accompaniment and claim songwriting credits even if the chords are derived by another from the melody line. The rest is production or arrangement or performance. We've seen the court rule in favor of others in cases where there were material changes to the lyrics, melody, and less frequently when the song has a signature musical hook.

 

If Jackson has the Billy Jean demo with just the four moving chords in the verses and the bridge sections that's enough to create a polished demo from. Asking someone to create a funky arpegiated bass line from the chords and then selecting and refining a part on a Linndrum doesn't make that person the composer.

 

Listening to the 'Wanna be Starting Something' demo and it's pretty easy to see how little Michael could have contributed to the demo arrangement and still be considered the composer. The signature riff is just a variant of the chorus vocal. It's clearly not the first generation of the demo and was reworked over time.

 

That's not a slight: MJ worked in one of the most successful studio machines in the world at Motown and knew the ropes and how to get the job done from a skeleton demo with vocal and piano to world class production including the many interim steps.

 

[d halfnote]

To extend what I mentioned earlier, in the realm of modern music production (or honestly even something not heavily "produced"), there are many respected composers who've sometimes drifted afield of what seems to be a particularly stringent----but not improper (I'd like everyone to get proper notice)---definition of composer.

 

(1) Back to the Beatles. George Harrison's "Taxman" has at least one verse by John Lennon & the song's built on a bass/drums construct developed by Paul McCartney, who also plays the lead guitar solo. Who wrote that song?

 

(2)Many of Miles Davis's records are constructed from very brief sketches, sometimes by MD, sometimes by bandmembers like Bill Evans (often called before a session & asked to bring in ideas).

These were then elaborated & improvised on by the ensemble. Who composed that music? Miles Davis ?

When Teo Macero took a 30~60 minute tape of collective improv by Miles's bands (which was more often than not the case)& edited it into a semi-coherent piece of music, who composed that? Davis, the ensemble or Macero?

 

 

(3) Session musicians regularly develop & contribute ideas to records under an idea called "work for hire". These often are the hooks of the record but they get no credit as composer.

 

[Steve Nathan]

Greatest dancer? He stole from James Brown, Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly, the Nicholas Brothers etc. I think he "stole" from the best songwriters, as well, and arranged them into songs he claims he wrote.

 

I forget who, but somebody famous once said that "Genius is but theft undetected".

 

First, I'm no big MJ fan And I could care less about dancing, but he was easily one of the greatest dancers ever maybe the best. No less than Fred Astaire famously declared MJ "the best dancer he'd ever seen". Everybody borrows from those who came before. Some never go any further. MJ certainly went way further and built a unique style.

 

Session musicians regularly develop & contribute ideas to records

 

No kidding. We frequently come up with parts, intros new chords to the bridge, etc. But that doesn't begin to mean we are the writers. It's our job to make the record as good as we can.

As a Session musician and a songwriter, I know there's a difference, and it has to do with having the idea in the first place. Songs are born between your ears. Everything else is dressing.

[Cygnus64]

[i forget who, but somebody famous once said that "Genius is but theft undetected".

 

 

Stravinsky once said "Good composers borrow. Great composers steal".

 

 

[Dave Ferris]

Michael had a narcissistic personality, he was vain, manipulative, had a huge ego, and was very concerned about his public image.

 

That pretty much defines 75% of the so called "artists" I've dealt with for 30 yrs. in this town.

[Wizz]

About MJ composing capability, check this out at YouTube:

 

[Jazz+]

In my opinion, MJ's style of dancing was adolesent and overrated. I don't consider him in the same category of dance greatness as Fred Astaire or Gene Kelly. One of his worst dance moments was that that choreographed crotch grab after he smashed a car windshield in some video, simply bad taste. Jackson has been passe for the past 20 years.

[Griffinator]

In my opinion, MJ's style of dancing was adolesent and overrated. I don't consider him in the same category of dance greatness as Fred Astaire or Gene Kelly. One of his worst dance moments was that that choreographed crotch grab after he smashed a car windshield in some video, simply bad taste. Jackson has been passe for the past 20 years.

 

Considering he really hasn't had much in the way of output for the past 20 years, I don't see where this is a relevant statement.

[bloodyMary]

When I lived in Russia, they had a saying - 'say good things or nothing about dead'. I think it's a good saying.

[richwhite9]

If I remember my Gogol correctly, the dead can vote in Russia.

 

That's quite an honor.

[jarrell]

In my opinion, MJ's style of dancing was adolesent and overrated. I don't consider him in the same category of dance greatness as Fred Astaire or Gene Kelly.

 

I thought he had some pretty cool moves, but what do I know, I'm a musician not a dancer... It would be interesting if this was a forum of jazz dance, or ballet, and people were commenting on his dance skills; that would be some interesting reading. You know how when non musicians talk about who is better, Eric Clapton or the guy from Phish, and you might be tempted to say, what about Pat Metheny, and they go, who? They know who they like, but they don't really know enough to actually judge who is better, and they get confused by things like the style of music, the person's looks, etc. Having not actually studied the field, they just know the most famous people in the commercial end of the field.

 

Not to take anything away from anybody, just I feel that if I studied dance for 10 or 20 years, and had 100's of friends who also had, and we made our livings dancing for the last 20 years, then I would have a better opinion.

[Cliffk]

Michael had a narcissistic personality, he was vain, manipulative, had a huge ego, and was very concerned about his public image.

Sounds like you knew him very well. If you don't mind sharing, when did you guys first meet and what was the nature of your relationship - just a bit curious about the real man behind the media hype.

[zephonic]

In my opinion, MJ's style of dancing was adolesent and overrated. I don't consider him in the same category of dance greatness as Fred Astaire or Gene Kelly. One of his worst dance moments was that that choreographed crotch grab after he smashed a car windshield in some video, simply bad taste. Jackson has been passe for the past 20 years.

 

What's with the acrimony, dude? Anybody with even half a brain can see that his influence on modern dance is inestimable. FWIW, Fred Astaire himself considered MJ to be the greatest dancer of the 20th century.

 

And you don't believe that he wrote his own songs, you think he had a f'd up personality, what's with the hating? Or did you know him personally? Did he screw you over?

 

[SK]

(Ok, this could start an interesting conversation.)

 

Premise: It all depends on what your definition of "songwriting" is. If a vocalist who doesn't play any instruments sings a melodic line to a keyboardist who then harmonizes it, is the vocalist a songwriter?

OK, basically depending on the strength of the melody (if it's a complete idea that can be harmonized/arranged and performed) it is songwriting. The more others add to it, the more it may be considered co-writing, but it's composing on some level.

 

I think MJ had a natural ability to hear melody - he seemed to get a whole song in his head melodically and rhythmically, and could put it to lyrics. IOW, a "songwriter". How much was co-written by others I wouldn't know, and we also know he performed other people's music that he didn't claim to have written.

 

Then he was a good singer and dancer, and the rest was showmanship and production. I didn't care for the effects, the vulgarities or the hype at all.

 

I wasn't an MJ fan, but on one level I liked what he did. It was the immediacy of the energy and intent that made it work, like any type of music. He captured the groove and imagination of the culture of the moment, the same as the Beatles and Elvis.

 

That really isn't so much about 'music' as it is tapping into a concept that becomes part of an era's identity and collective memory. I think this is what made him - the music was one part, but the right timing, exposure and attitude found a niche. To pull that off, besides promotion, the music had to have some honesty to connect so well to the public. I think it was sincere music, but connecting to the masses also requires it be limited by default, so it becomes more about the phenomenon created out of celebrity.

 

Now having 'defended' him, I don't own any MJ recordings or plan to. For a top entertainer he had his own musical relevance, but I can't see him in the same light as deeper artists like Miles Davis or even Frank Sinatra or Stevie Wonder, or those whose music made impact without such tremendous hype.

 

 

[StartRun]

In my opinion, MJ's style of dancing was adolesent and overrated. I don't consider him in the same category of dance greatness as Fred Astaire or Gene Kelly. One of his worst dance moments was that that choreographed crotch grab after he smashed a car windshield in some video, simply bad taste. Jackson has been passe for the past 20 years.

 

...you don't have to go back to Astaire or Kelly.

 

Sammy Davis, JR. could out-dance (not to mention out-sing) Jackson without

relying on fog machines, chorus lines or, vulgarity...

[ProfD]

SK's post is excellent.

 

It never ceases to amaze me how little 'musicians' really understand about making music especially on a popular level.

 

MJ was a songwriter and composer. He was fortunate enough to work with a team of folks who could bring his vision to fruition.

 

Beyond the talent of the artist, it still takes a variety of 'players' to make records in many cases.

[MikeT156]

For those of you that are bad-mouthing Michael Jackson's dancing ability, I remember reading some years ago what Fred Astaire had to say about Michael's dancing when he was interviewed.

 

Paraphrasing but it went something like this:

 

"That man can DANCE!".

 

I think Fred Astaire knew more about dancing than the sum total of all us could ever wish to know. I say, knock off the bad mouthing of something you know nothing about.

 

Mike T.

[Eric VB]

(Ok, this could start an interesting conversation.)

 

Premise: It all depends on what your definition of "songwriting" is. If a vocalist who doesn't play any instruments sings a melodic line to a keyboardist who then harmonizes it, is the vocalist a songwriter?

OK, basically depending on the strength of the melody (if it's a complete idea that can be harmonized/arranged and performed) it is songwriting. The more others add to it, the more it may be considered co-writing, but it's composing on some level.

SK and ProfD have this covered, but plain and simple, based on the US Copyright Office definition, a song is lyrics set to melody. Anything else associated with a song, I suppose, may be considered arrangement. (When you take a standard and reharmonize it you don't call it composing, do you?) Compositions (music without lyrics) are different, of course.

 

Without going into it, a lot of songs were created before music notation was standardized. Some cultures still use more of an "oral tradition" to pass on songs, even newly written songs. And here's something to chew on. One musician in this culture today could not imagine an instrumentalist who was not a singer first. (Because your voice is how you communicate musical ideas.)

 

I don't have any problem calling MJ a songwriter.

 

In a band situation it is not uncommon to write songs as a group; as collaborators. Typically the rhythm section does not get songwriting credit unless their contribution is significant (or the "real" songwriters feel benevolent). So a lot of bands continue the tradition of the lyricist and composer team, e.g. Plant and Page (Led Zeppelin). Some of their songs are Plant/Page/Jones, when Jones had more input, and I believe the entire first album was credited to all four members (which was probably more of a business agreement than actual songwriting effort). [When you consider how singular a drummer Bonham was, though, perhaps he should have received more songwriting credit as a collaborator than he got?]

 

Yes, I believe musicians should strive to learn their art, and that includes learning music theory and standard notation. Lacking those skills, though, does not preclude one from being a songwriter, or even writing hit songs.

[cnegrad]

Eric,

 

I don't necessarily disagree with what you've said. But official or not, I would argue that in some songs, the chord progression plays an important enough role to qualify for a share of the songwriting credit. Mind you, I'm not talking about reharms or rearrangments of pre-existing songs. In my view, the "official" definiton is deficient in that regard.

[Dave Horne]

Yes, I believe musicians should strive to learn their art, and that includes learning music theory and standard notation. Lacking those skills, though, does not preclude one from being a songwriter, or even writing hit songs.

 

I agree, but it does give credence to those individuals who, for whatever reason, refuse to learn the accepted notational language of music.

 

... MJ didn't learn how to notate music and he earned hundreds of millions of dollars, why should I bother to learn?

 

I watched that video and I would assume MJ wrote his songs exactly in that manner - singing his ideas into a cassette recorder. I hope the guy doing the transcribing and the orchestrating got paid well.

[SK]

Well, it's interesting; the copyright definition of song writing is specific but broad, while I was considering it from the process of composing. Anyone can send in the proper form and fee and claim to be a songwriter.

 

When I was too young and dumb to get a copyright, one of my tunes made it to the bottom of the top 40 charts on another person's name. I wasn't aware of my rights at the time, and I wasn't proud of the tune either. So I was actually glad when it fell off the charts.

[kanker.]

one of my tunes made it to the bottom of the top 40 charts

Do tell...

[cnegrad]

'Popcorn'? 'Tiny Dancer'? 'Macarena'??

[meccajay]

*moved*