How much is too much?

[MikeT156]

quote by Mr. Nightime:

 

"All of the clubs that I play now have computerized cash registers. They put your name in when you run a tab, and present you with a receipt at the end of the night. Eliminates any question on the amount."

 

Sure, the thing is, if its a "BAND" tab, then you will have a bil for 4 or 5 different people, then you have to have everyone look over the bill to see if its correct. Now, if you have individual tabs, it could work. But again, if you pay cash as you go, you don't get shocked at the end of the night, because there is NO TAB. No room for error or anyone throwing other people's drinks on the tab. The KISS principle works best here.

 

Mike T.

[Ian Benhamou]

All of the clubs that I play now have computerized cash registers. They put your name in when you run a tab, and present you with a receipt at the end of the night. Eliminates any question on the amount.

 

 

UH....actually this doesn't change anything. That's just a system to make it easier for the waiter/bartender to keep track of their bills. Just because you open a bill and name it "Band Tab" doesn't stop you from punching in anything you want on it. In fact, most of these computer systems allow you to transfer items between customers on a table, or even from table to table.

 

The way it works is simple. A waiter takes an order, goes to the computer and opens a new table and punches in that order. The drinks on that order print up at the service bar and the food prints up in the kitchen. Those print ups have a table #, the waiter's name and the order to be made. So all the waiter has to do is punch in anything they want on the band's bill, and then go to the service bar, grab the drinks she just ordered and bring them to one of her tables. The computerized system doesn't check to make sure that that order goes to the band.

[Tonysounds]

And really, the software is there not to help maintain service integrity (although in theory, that's a nice by-product): It's there to maintain control over inventory.

[J. Dan]

But again, if you pay cash as you go, you don't get shocked at the end of the night, because there is NO TAB. No room for error or anyone throwing other people's drinks on the tab. The KISS principle works best here.

 

That's exactly why at the one club I was taking what we were due per contract all at the beginning of the night and instructing them to immediately close out the tab. If anybody from the band wanted anything else, they could either start their own tab or pay cash.

 

I don't have to do that most places, but after being burned twice, that was the policy and I made it clear to everyone in the band. Due to a change in management, we have since relaxed that policy at this place with no further issues.

 

But again, the fact that we don't drink much and it's very easy to keep track of our consumption helps. To the best of my recollection, the two incidents at this one place were the only incidents we ever had - and that's playing about 95 shows a year at a dozen or so different establishments. If anything, I think we more often than not get a better deal than we should because we'll bring in a big crowd and they're happy, so they'll just pick up the tab - but again, it's usually not a huge tab. I know other local bands who are known to drink a lot who have more tab issues.

[Eric Jx]

I'm glad I asked the question here. There is some good advice to be found in the replies.

 

The situation from the gig last Saturday is clearer to me now after we had a phone conversation with the venue owner (he wasn't there when everything went down at the end of the night; We were dealing with his manager).

 

In addition to the 13 beers ordered by our 3 drinking band members, the singer's boyfriend was ordering beers on the bands tab claiming he's the "sound guy".

 

He was also ordering beers and then handing them off to his friends. 12 drinks total.

 

Now that I know the whole story, I have to say that the venue manager had a right to be pissed.

 

I brought the issue up with the singer, and issued a policy that bandmember's significant others are not allowed to drink on the band tab. Reasonable policy right?

 

Well, the singer quit because of this incident.

 

[MoodyBluesKeys]

Well, the singer quit because of this incident.

 

See - TWO good things - you and the owner got things straight is the first. If the singer is more concerned with free beer for her BF and anyone he wants to give beer to - the band is a sight better off finding another singer.

 

[Morizzle]

Well, the singer quit because of this incident.

 

Oof. Finally, you can concentrate on making music. Your policy concerning band member's friends is more than reasonable.

[Eric Jx]

I don't want to come down too hard on her. She sent me a private email outlining her reasons for leaving, and they go deeper than simply a disagreement over her boyfriends free beers.

 

But in the end, I'm sure we'll be better off, as will she.

She's not cut out for the bar scene. Late nights. etc...

[MikeT156]

Maybe denying the free beers for her boyfriend and friends was the last "straw". Some people have to find out the hard way that a band is a business and the band is not in business to pay for a free-for-all for her friends. Let them pick up their own tab. Immature, Amateurs.

 

 

Mike T.

[Eric Jx]

We've lost 3 female lead singers, and one female bassist in the time we've been doing this. We've have zero turnover with the male band members.

 

I remember a while back we posted an craigslist ad for a bassist. One respondent was interested in our project until he heard we had a female lead singer. He said "dont get me wrong....I love woman, but they're all pain in the asses"

 

He may have been on to something.

[clpete]

...the singer's boyfriend was ordering beers on the bands tab claiming he's the "sound guy".

 

Unless every one in the band is on the same page about drinking at a gig, a band tab is a bad idea. This is a perfect and typical example.

 

If they give you free stuff make sure they everyone understands what it is. This included the bartender. Once you got whats comped, every on is on their own.

 

I used to play with a singer that would set up a band tab at the club we used to play. The rest of us were smart enough not to use it. At the end of the weekend he was always baffled at charge, but had to pay it out of his cut. A few times he owed them and this was a great paying gig. He bought his buddies drinks and Im sure he paid for a lot of drinks he didnt order.

 

[Mr. Nightime]

Exactly. That's why we don't have a "Band Tab". We pay for our own.

 

One band I was in the bass player's wife would come out and put everything for her and their friends on the Bass player's tab. There were times he ended up owing money after the gig, but he was cool with it.

 

 

[J. Dan]

Don't knock female singers. I've had 2 different ones in 2 different bands that have been a pleasure to work with. I've also heard some horror stories from other bands about theirs.

 

I think the criteria looking for a female singer (or other musician) is the same for any other band member - too often, people have a different set of criteria because she's a girl.

 

1) Professional - this is where it's good to get somebody with experience singing/playing in a band who knows what to expect - plus, you can check with her previous bands to see what kind of drama they may have had.

 

2) Gets along well with a group of guys, and doesn't get involved in more than a professional way. In other words, if it's the kind of gal who is perfectly comfortable hanging with a group of guys at a gig and you don't have to act any differently, you should be good. Also, there should be no doubt that there isn't a chance in hell that she's going to develop a relationship with anybody in the band - and I would recommend that the other band members not try to do so. I would include in this, that she should not already be the wife or girlfriend of an existing band member - you're asking for trouble because they'll team up against the rest of the band, or at least put one or the other in a difficult position if they disagree.

 

I hope this helps. Having a female singer puts you at a distinctive advantage against your competition - trust me. Most of the things listed above you should be able to figure out for the most part prior to hiring somebody based on their experience, attitude, and personality.

[Phred]

At one place, we always got 18 beers (for 5 of us) at the beginning of the night and put it on stage.

....

We don't drink 24 beers, but they're ours - that's part of our payment, other bands get them. We drink what we want and give the rest away to fans.

And...

We counted the empty beer bottles plus the several full ones still left on stage and there were 18 total.

I am surprised no one brought this up yet.

 

I don't have a fully formed opinion one way or the other on this, but I could see this pissing off bar management. I think it would piss me off. I am assuming that 18 to 24 beers get opened at the beginning of the night, and some get given away to people who would normally buy beer, or they get tossed down the sink?

 

To me that seems like 'I have no use for this, but since I am entitled to it, I am taking it'.

 

OT (sort of) -- I know some people who have a child in a home daycare program that charges by the day and includes lunch for the child. Based on some scheduling issues, and needing to hold the spot, they had to start paying for the daycare for a week or two before the mother went back to work. She could have brought the kid to daycare, but she opted to keep the child home for the week or two while paying for a spot. Guess what she did? She went to the daycare providers house (who lived right next door) at lunchtime and picked up the included lunch for her child.

 

Maybe some of you might find that intelligent, but I find it really odd. I would have loved to have seen the look on the face of the daycare provider the first time that happened.

[clpete]

I played with a female singer/bass player a couple years ago and she was never the problem. It was the 5 male guitar players and 6 drummers we went through.

 

Musicians are notoriously a bunch of shelf centered egotistical glory hounds. Male or female, they can be hard to work with. (Of coarse keyboard players are the exception.)

 

Females do bring the added sexual tension into a male dominated band. This is usually elevated by the band members significant others.

 

[Eric Jx]

I don't mean to suggest that any of the three girls we worked with were "Problems". But it's frustrating getting up to speed as a group, and then having to start over with someone new. The turnover is the problem.

 

I'm almost starting to think that I should except that band turnover is a fact of life. And we should concentrate on streamlining the audition process and try and to minimize the distruption that turnover causes. Sort of a zen, "journey is the reward" mindset.

 

We could never go with a male lead anyway. Too many of our songs were sung by a female in the original. A guy can't sing walking on sunshine and be credible.

[J. Dan]

To me that seems like 'I have no use for this, but since I am entitled to it, I am taking it'.

 

Why not? It's a $50 tab. If they'd give me the $50, I'd take that instead of the beer. But the policy they've collectively worked out with all the bands that play there is to provide part of the compensation as a $50 bar tab. If I don't take it, I'm giving up $50 that the other bands are getting paid. So if I give some of it to some of our regular fans, what's wrong with that? It's ours - that's our perogative. Personally, I'd rather take the cash and get no tab - we'd be better off, other bands wouldn't. But they chose to give it to us as a tab and we're going to make the best of it.

 

I'm almost starting to think that I should except that band turnover is a fact of life. And we should concentrate on streamlining the audition process and try and to minimize the distruption that turnover causes. Sort of a zen, "journey is the reward" mindset.

 

Don't accept that as a fact of life. Just set your priorties a little bit differently. Last time we needed a bassist, I heard about a killer bass player in town that could sing well also and was playing in another band that did a lot of 80's songs. I didn't even audition him (or even contact him) because I heard from a number of people that he had personality conflicts with various bands he had been in. I went with a guy that is a good bass player, and maybe a little less than I wanted on vocals, but a great personality. We all get along great with him, he's easy going, no drama, and I expect him to be with us for the long haul.

 

Personality and work ethic have to be every bit as important as musical ability, if not even more so, and you won't have the turnover.

[Eric Jx]

I agree with you that personality and professionalism is key.

 

However looking back, I don't see how focusing on those two item would have avoided our turnover.

 

Our first singer left because she was pregnant.

 

Our most recent singer left because of the BF incident. Do I have to audition the BF too?

 

I'm not 100% sure why we lost our female bass player. The official reason were the demands of her day job, however I think she left because the guitarist hit on her.

[J. Dan]

I agree with you that personality and professionalism is key.

 

However looking back, I don't see how focusing on those two item would have avoided our turnover.

 

Our first singer left because she was pregnant.

 

Unavoidable, but if all else was well, why didn't she come back after maternity leave?

 

Our most recent singer left because of the BF incident. Do I have to audition the BF too?

No, but you ought to be able to tell if someone is the type of person to let their spouse or significant other get in the way of their job. Would you let your wife or girlfriend screw up an opportunity with a club? How would you handle it? Do you think people who don't know you would be able to tell that you are the type of person who would handle things that way by interviewing you? So keep that in mind when auditioning someone else, male or female.

 

I'm not 100% sure why we lost our female bass player. The official reason were the demands of her day job, however I think she left because the guitarist hit on her.

 

Well, per my earlier post - don't hit on the girl in the band. Keep those relationships purely professional or you're asking for trouble. Demands of the day job were most likely an excuse. If not, it's pretty easy to see how much somebody is comfortable with playing prior to hiring them.

[Eric Jx]

Now were way off topic.

 

As for Singer #1, you're asking a lot. She was a single girl in her 20s, she unexpectedly get pregnant, has a premature baby before she was married, has to sell her house, etc.. Her life was turned upside down.

 

Having a baby, especially a first child, is a crash course in reality. I can't blame anybody for dropping out of a side music gig for that.

 

On the other hand, I had a child and didn't miss a practice. But a) It wasn't my first, b) I didn't actually have to carry the fetus.

 

As for Singer #2, if you can tell by meeting someone whether their SO is going to be a problem, then you are a better interviewer than me. Don't get me wrong, I'll try and take a lesson from this experience, but I think it's much harder than you make it sound.

 

As for the Female Bassist: I concede your point. Don't eat where you s--t.

 

 

[J. Dan]

I agree with singer #1 - I didn't know the circumstances. I played in a band with a singer who played pretty much right up until the birth and returned later, but completely different scenario - older, married, etc.

 

I guess my only point with #2 is that it is not specific to a girl. I've known plenty of guys to have issues in bands because of their SO. And a lot of times (not always) you can sniff them out - not just from one interview, but from talking to past bands they've been in, others in the industry, friends, etc. I've never made a decision based on an audition. Usually, there is not even an invitation to audition until I know quite a bit about them and there have been recomendations from others in the industry. Either that, or I already know them well enough to know their personality, professionalism, and work ethic.

 

But St. Louis is a fairly small town and a fairly tight knit group of musicians, so it might be easier to get the dirt on people.

[Mr. Nightime]

We've played a number of gigs where they offered a band tab. We just told them that we would rather have a little extra cash, and pay for our own tab.

 

 

[Phred]

I can only speak from experience as the type of gigs that I do. And usually, it's we pay you X, and have a couple of drinks and a meal on us. Not - We'll pay you X, and 50$ of it will be in beer. I am not sure that is what you are saying, but if you are, then I can partially see what you are saying.

 

I've played several gigs where a meal is included. I Sometimes eat the meal (alway tip the server btw), but if I have eaten before hand, or I am not hungry I will not order the meal. I couldn't imagine ordering it anyway to give it to someone, or throw it out or whatever. That is the type of thing that I am picturing with the 24 beer on stage at the beginning of the night.

 

[Eric Jx]

But St. Louis is a fairly small town and a fairly tight knit group of musicians, so it might be easier to get the dirt on people.

 

I really don't have my finger on the pulse of the Long Island musician cliche. Even if I were better connected, I'm not sure if it would have help as 2 of our last 3 singers didn't really have band experience to go by. I'm thinking perhaps that's part of our problem. Somebody new to the band circuit might not understand the commitment level required to succeed in a band. Even one like ours where we're only playing out 2-3 a month.

[Joe Muscara]

I've discovered that once or twice a month is a lot for some people who have other full-time jobs and/or families.

[MikeT156]

Eric:

 

I'd say you need to explain the rules when you take on a new singer next time around. It will save you the headache of bringing in yet another person. That takes up a lot of time. Its another one of the other reasons I haven't bothered to play in bands for over 35 years. The hassle factor isn't worth it.

 

Mike T.

[DanL]

Lots of good comments here, from band tabs to band members.

 

Most places we play give us a couple comps. The rest we pay for, on our own tabs. It's not fair for someone who doesn't drink to have to pay for people who do drink when you have a common tab. Our guitar player doesn't drink at all, the drummer might have 2 beers, the bass player and I might have 3-4 over the course of the night. I wouldn't expect any of them to pay for my drinks.

 

One of my bands has a couple members who really liked to drink, and buy drinks for their friends. It was a pain in the butt to go down the tab and say who drank what. If I have 3 beers and my tab is 12 bucks and the guitar player has an $80 tab because he was drinking shots and passing them around to his friends, I'm not paying it. So we stopped having band tabs. It's the easiest way.

 

As far as the females in the band thing, I totally agree that any female you work with has to be able to hang with the guys. That doesn't me you have to subject her to gutter level humor, but she has to be able to deal with a group of guys. And 100%- no relationships with other band members! We had a real good singer in my band. Everyone who knew our drummer from other bands said watch out, he'll hit on any female in the band. He did, she quit the same day we hired his replacement. Now we have a girl who is married, can hang with the guys, and while she might not have the raw talent of the other girl, she's a much better fit for the band. So we got lucky.

 

Regarding band members- give me a good attitude, reliability, and feet on the ground over a monster player who has the ego that goes with it. I could replace my bass player with a half dozen guys I know who are better, but I'd never do it. He shows up on time, he knows his parts at practice, he's there to load in and load out, and he's a team player. He plays all the parts well, but he's not a great improviser or real adaptable in a jam setting. He lays down the groove and is solid, and that's what I need from him. I don't want some phenom bass player who is always looking for a better gig and will dump my project when that comes along. I know a lot of drummers like that too, they quit a solid project to join the latest buzz band in Philly, that band lasts 6 months, and they are back to where they were before.

[MikeT156]

Great post Dan L! Excellent insights. Less experienced players would do well to think about the points you brought up! It's good advice from someone who knows.

 

Mike T.

[Ian Benhamou]

Regarding band members- give me a good attitude, reliability, and feet on the ground over a monster player who has the ego that goes with it. I could replace my bass player with a half dozen guys I know who are better, but I'd never do it. He shows up on time, he knows his parts at practice, he's there to load in and load out, and he's a team player.

 

These are the requirements to be an in-demand pro. It's not about how fast you could play or how amazing your solos are. It's about all the things you mentioned. No ego, always prepared, punctual, positive attitude, team player ethics, etc. These qualities more than your chops will give you a good reputation and keep your phone ringing. Of course, if you have all these qualities and you could blow people away with your chops, well then sky's the limit.

[Moonglow]

.....but would 13-14 draft beers come to a $160 bar bill ($110+50 shorted?)

From my experience as (former) night club owner of eight years, one draft beer costs about 5 cents.

 

Total damage = $0.70