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[alcohol]

Karl Marx was an idealist.

[Gus Lozada]

[quote]Originally posted by fantasticsound: [b] I wouldn't say, "you all voted", Gus. It's not close to being true. ;) [/b][/quote]... and according to other sources, Bush did not win the election... right? ... it was some sarcasm !! :p

[the stranger]

[quote]Originally posted by Griffinator: [b]You and GZ are absolutely incredible in your dogmatic conservative doctrine. You have [b]so totally bought in[/b] to this puppet game you're blind to the reality. Dems are crooks GOPs are crooks They're all fucking crooks. Every last one of them. Years upon years of "Lesser of two evils" and "Vote for me because I'm not him" mentalities have brought us to this point. It's time for something different. It's time to stop the merry-go-round.[/b][/quote]I have to admit that I'm very tired of arguing with GZ. Nothing you say can make this guy admit that both parties are equally flawed. Mr. Wow isn't as dogmatic as you think, griff. He leans towards the right wing, but he is what I WOULD consider a conservative. Guitplayer tows the consrvative line, but does it with common sense. GZsound is what I would consider a liberal who votes Republican.

[ViLo]

"BOOO HOO HOOO! I don't like Bush" :cry: :cry: :cry: Imagine if we had the power to eliminate anybody that we don't like?? This world will be a nice place to live, right???? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: GET REAL!!!

[philbo_Tangent]

I believe we'll never escape the yoke of political oppression until at least 6 more political parties become viable contenders. Right now all we do is trade one set of slave masters for another at each election. Democrats will fuck you out of your money with taxes for your own good. Republicans will fuck you out of your money for their own good.. Frankly I'm sick to fucking death of the whole mess. Wonder what Canada's immigration policies look like. It's the nearest thing to a civilized nation I can find.... Maybe the time to move is now, before everyone else decides emmigration looks good to them also, and the borders get closed to stop the fleeing tax dollars....

[ViLo]

[quote]Originally posted by philbo_Tangent: [b]I believe we'll never escape the yoke of political oppression until at least 6 more political parties become viable contenders. Right now all we do is trade one set of slave masters for another at each election. Democrats will fuck you out of your money with taxes for your own good. Republicans will fuck you out of your money for their own good.. Frankly I'm sick to fucking death of the whole mess. Wonder what Canada's immigration policies look like. It's the nearest thing to a civilized nation I can find.... Maybe the time to move is now, before everyone else decides emmigration looks good to them also, and the borders get closed to stop the fleeing tax dollars....[/b][/quote]You can inmigrate to Mexico, with little money[$20,0000]or less if you know how to use it, maybe a little bussiness.

[philbo_Tangent]

Well, yeah, Jamaica's an option too, if you want to go low-budget. The problem is you never know when somebody's gonna drag you out of your house in the middle of the night, shoot you in the head and rape & kill your wife.... Or maybe that's Guatemala I'm thinking of.. whatever.

[ViLo]

[quote]Originally posted by philbo_Tangent: [b]Well, yeah, Jamaica's an option too, if you want to go low-budget. The problem is you never know when somebody's gonna drag you out of your house in the middle of the night, shoot you in the head and rape & kill your wife.... Or maybe that's Guatemala I'm thinking of.. whatever.[/b][/quote]or the USA?? JUst Kidding. There's lots of americans living in Mexico.

[the stranger]

Why is it so difficult for the few to accept that the two parties are NOT any different. They have both shared in the rule of this country for over 100 years. Where have we gone and where are we going? Do people really want change, or do they just want the appearence of change? Maybe that's it. People fear change. Maybe that's why the few who scream for change are always in the minority. Attention: It has been determined that Rush Limbaugh was not really talking all those years. It has been discovered that he was lip syncing. :freak: It was also determined that GZsound was the man behind the curtain. :D We're off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of tired rhetoric.

[Prague]

[quote]Originally posted by philbo_Tangent: [b]I believe we'll never escape the yoke of political oppression until at least 6 more political parties become viable contenders. Right now all we do is trade one set of slave masters for another at each election. Democrats will fuck you out of your money with taxes for your own good. Republicans will fuck you out of your money for their own good.. Frankly I'm sick to fucking death of the whole mess. Wonder what Canada's immigration policies look like. It's the nearest thing to a civilized nation I can find.... Maybe the time to move is now, before everyone else decides emmigration looks good to them also, and the borders get closed to stop the fleeing tax dollars....[/b][/quote]You need to get out of the house more often. Oppression? Slave Masters? Gawd, you need to read some books. Badly. There's no point discussing anything until then. I hope that gulag, known as Iowa(!), will spare your life in the meantime. Try Canada. They safely exist due to the US. At least get out of Iowa for once. See the world. Then tell us if Jamaica is really the place to live.

[Super 8]

[quote]Originally posted by alcohol: [b]Karl Marx was an idealist.[/b][/quote]So was Count Dooku... What's your point? [img]http://www.wizards.com/starwars/images/count_dooku.jpg[/img][i] Dooku never cared for media photographers either... I don't know about Marx.[/i] :p

[philbo_Tangent]

edited... "And if we really say it The radio won't play it Unless we lay it between the lines" - The Mamas and the Papas

[GZsound]

All right!! Some of you are actually starting to get it. As I have said repeatedly over and over, all politicians are crooks. All politicians are only in it for the power and all they want is more power. Anifa, I find your Bush and Hitlet comparison to be beyond good taste and certainly beyond reality. Lost a lot of credibility with me when you start warning us against Arnold because he is from Austria. What are you doing, practicing reverse anti semitism? A lot of you feel Mr. Bush will be replaced in the next election. That may be the case. Now, can any of you state with any facts that whoever replaces him will not be in bed with big money? Will not let either big business or big unions tell them what to do? Right now George Bush is the only candidate for president that has posted all his campaign contributions, how much and where they come from. Why do you suppose that is? Ask your favorite democratic candidate where they get their money. Ask them to disclose it. Let's shine a light on the rats, all of them, and see where they scamper. And please don't suggest I simply repeat the Rush Limbaugh mantra.. I rarely listen to or even much like Rush. He is an entertainer, although a more informed entertainer than Richard Gere, etc. The only thing he ever said I totally agree with is that ugly women should not be allowed to shop. Those of you that think Mr. Bush has killed our economy obviously do not study history. You obviously have not seen the facts regarding the decline of the stock market and the dot com bubble burst. All of these things happened before Mr. Bush became president. We have been in these cycles before. To blame Mr. Bush for high unemployment is to totally ignore facts. Here are some hard facts for your enjoyment: These are according to Small Business Economic Trends. Quarterly report by the National Federation of Independent Business as published int the Wells Fargo Business Advisor 2003. The top four business concerns for small business are 1. Cost/Availability of Insurance 2. Loss of sales 3. Taxes 4. Government regulations and red tape. So, which one of these has George Bush made worse? The average increase in medical insurance premiums since November 2002 has risen over 20% for more than half of all small business. Did Mr. Bush cause this rise or maybe the trial lawyers association and their contributions to the democrats to stop all efforts to control costs. 65% of all companies have reduced labor force and increased medical deductable/co payments to their employees. Did George Bush cause this? Mr. Bush recently saved seniors over 3 Billion dollars in prescription drug costs. Without a vote. Simple government mandate. What did the last democratic administration do except talk about it? Have you heard about this on NPR? When the cost of doing business increases, a business has several choices. Layoff employees, cut costs, cut benefits, cut administration, close. Higher taxes, higher medical costs, higher government fees and regulations all have forced companies to cut back. We actually have an increase in productivity, factory orders, etc. but employment has gone down. If employment is your only example of an economy doing poorly, you aren't paying attention or your are just listening to the democratic talking points. Now a question.. What exactly is the president doing to kill this economy? My business paid over 60% of gross income in taxes and fees before I even knew there was a George Bush Jr. Were any of you paying attention in 97, 98, 99? And now we have another state income tax increase on it's way and all our fees, car registration, etc. have been raised. A family of four is paying more in taxes and fees in Oregon than in all but three other states. And this is a wholly controlled democratic run state and has been for years. We are billions in debt because of state programs, not federal programs. We have the highest unemployment in the nation because of democratic controlled state programs, not because of George Bush. When you folks figure out all politics is local and maybe spend some of your energy (or hate) trying to make things better locally, perhaps you won't have so much idle time on your hands to sit around and bash what you don't understand. I would love to know how many of you are involved in school budget committees, city budget committees, economic advisory groups, etc. where you actually have an opportunity to try to make things better. Jump up at a local city council meeting and start yelling George Bush is another Hitler...I dare you.

[alcohol]

Bush has initiated two federal tax cuts in two years and reduced federal monies sent to the state governments. The consequence has been for states and localities to raise taxes and fees. The consequence has been a shifting of tax burdens from the richest sector downward. The policies of George Bush Jr. are directly responsible for the shift in taxes. Bush has also involved us in a needless and burdensome adventure in Iraq, purportedly for the purpose of disarming Saddam Hussein's possession of WMD. None were found by UN inspectors, none have been found by the US inspectors. Now we're burdened with rebuilding a country we've crippled, while at the same time having needs at home. The huge tax breaks Bush engendered have not sufficiently stimulated the economy as predicted and the huge deficit, caused by a war (timely initiated to help get Republicans elected) and tax breaks for a Republican constituency, has caused us to go from a budgetary surplus to a huge deficit. This deficit is now causing interest rates to go up despite the lowest Fed interest rate in memory. So now the cost of borrowing money to buy houses and fund business expansion is going up as predicted, slowing the economy. Inappropriate excuses like the maxim, "all politics are local," might sound cogent for someone with an emotional need to support George Bush; however, some of us are realists and are not fooled. Bush is the problem. We can't afford the Bush administration. Impeach Bush for lying to the US citizens and Congress about the reasons for going to war in Iraq.

[Wow]

Alcohol, You are starting to sound like johnny bralalala. Just throw shit against the wall and see what sticks. I thought you retired anyway? :)

[alcohol]

WOW, Yes, I promised myself to learn a jazz lick instead of writing a political posting. Thanks, I'm going back to my piano now. No need to fritter my time away talking politics.

[Wow]

You da man! :thu:

[GZsound]

Really... To just throw out partisan drivel does no one any good. Please check the facts. The decline in our economy started before Mr. Bush took office. The corporate phony book keeping practices started before Mr. Bush took office. Inflated value internet companies with no real asset value exploded in the early and late 90's and reality started showing up in 2000. Please check the facts as to the number of dot coms that went bankrupt. Please check the facts as to when Arthur Anderson started doing Enron, Global Crossing, etc. books..please. These facts are available. There is strong proof that the Regan tax cuts stimulated the economy and helped create the boom times of the early 90's. Were any of you paying attention in 1981? I lost six million dollars in sales in 1981. Interest rates for houses were over 12%. The economy was stalled and much worse than now. What happened to create the better economy of the 90's? Bill Clinton? The president, any president has very little control over the economy. The president, any president can certainly help unemployment numbers, but usually only by increasing government jobs. The president, any president cannot increase private sector jobs. Government jobs require more government revenue to sustain. This is one reason the government grew so dramatically during the Clinton years. The president, all of them, can propose methods to reduce the load on the public. He can propose methods of reducing government, methods of getting more money into the economy, etc. but without congress, the house and senate, he is helpless. Once again is is fashionable to bash the president when the bashing is totally misdirected and consists of simple partisan mantra. When government realizes it is small business that drives the economy..not more social programs, not more taxes, not more fees, not more government job creation programs, then our economy will get better. And again, if you are paying attention to the broad economic reports and not to your political party of choice, the economy is improving. Markets are up, productivity is up, factory orders are up, stock orders are up, home sales are up, etc. With record low interest rates and record home sales, how can the econome remain down? What does record home construction and sales do for the economy? Need a water heater, a new carpet, new roof, garage, toilet, etc. These are all created by somebody with a job, folks.

[Jode]

I'm not even going to wade into this debate, but in response to the title of this thread: You just can't do that. In California, you can, but with the federal government you can't. Sorry.

[Anifa]

GZsound, If YOU have ever taken notice; I have NO preference in ANY political parties because they are all crooks! PERIOD!!! No Democrats, No Republicans, No Liberals. As far as my comment about Arnold S., I don't have any idea of the policies that he is campaigning to support, nor was I even paying attention to what political party he was engaged with. With all the other things going on in America that are happening in comparison with written facts about the take over of Hitler, it was only natural for red flags to fly when Arnie stepped up to the mound. I studied German Culture while learning to speak the language. As German language was normally taught in the HIGH form(E. Berlin was still in existence while I was in school), and not Low German (W. Berlin); students were taught to study German history and their cultures as well as the division of the country and policies. Austria remained under the reign of the E. Berlin government and was kept in seclusion from liberated nations. Although the Berlin Wall has been destroyed, much of the separation of German territory continues. I really don't care what your opinion of me is because I have my own opinions and I'm not inclined to be hand-fed the poisoness babble of New World Order Leaders.

[Wewus432]

Hey GZ and Anifa. Let's stop the arguments for a while and post on my thread entitled "What's Your Problem". Not only will this make me feel important but it will make you feel better about yourselves, I promise, or your money back. I just get tired of arguing sometimes, don't you? What do we have in common, that interests me more.

[Anifa]

Hey Sweetie, Did you come in here to keep me from getting myself into another flame war??? I promise not to get stupid like I did the last time around.

[Wewus432]

Well yeah, I just hate to see people get all worked up, and thinking they don't like someone, or that they won't ever get along with that person. You gotta remember this is virtual reality. You might actually like the person you're arguing with if you ever met them in real life, might just be a PR problem.

[Anifa]

Now see what you've gone and done Wewus, You caused me to go in and edit the bulk of the last contributing post... You are having a calming effect on me.... OR ARE YOU? That's not a GOOD THING for the "SOMA" vs. "Gods of Rock" theme. :D Now GO, before you cause me to start being NICE!!! :mad: :D Probably just reminding me of the how the Welstone Thread spun out of control. :eek:

[Super 8]

[quote]Originally posted by alcohol: [b]Inappropriate excuses like the maxim, "all politics are local," might sound cogent for someone with an emotional need to support George Bush; however, some of us are realists and are not fooled. [/b][/quote]Actually, it really is true. Your local government has a far greater affect on your life than the federal government has. Also, interest rates on home loans may have gone up, but they are still pretty damn low... We just refinanced. Yeah, I know... We should have done it a little while ago, but what with the kids-n-all taking up our time, we just didn't get around to it. We're still saving a bunch of money! :cool: [i](oh yeah!)[/i]

[alcohol]

Yes, I now realize that unless a Republican is president, the federal government has only negative consequences upon your life. If there is a Republican President he is responsible for whatever is positive nationwide. If you have a Democratic President, whatever is positive nationwide is a direct consequence of total sum of Republican presidents preceeding him. Every problem your local or state government has is directly the fault of your local government if they are Democrats. The Reagan stimulus to the economy was not because of the fiscal stimulus of dramatically increased federal spending or the demographic increase of baby boomers entering the job market, but solely attributable his tax breaks, which he essentially rescinded with two tax increases later in his administration, and which was further rescinded by the Bush tax increase. If you ignore facts you can believe anything at all. My time here at the SSS has made it obvious to me that despite confronting people with facts, if a person doesn't want to believe the truth, they'll make up an excuse. Everytime! Mortgage rates are nationally around 6.7%. That is a high mortage rate. History of mortgage rates: http://www.mortgageresearchcenter.com/mortgagerates/ratehistory.htm Where are the WMD?

[Wow]

Uh..........if you got a house in the late 70's, your rate was somewhere around 18 - 21%.

[alcohol]

The point is that mortgage rates are going up as a consequence of the deficit taking money away from the money supply despite the really low prime rate. The mortgage rates of the late 70's were used to ahlt runaway inflation that had a slew of causes, the stagflation from the Vietnam era along with the rise of energy prices initiated by OPEC. The prime rate was set high by the then Chairman of the FED Paul Volcker, who was appointed by Jimmy Carter to arrest inflation at his political expense. So well did Volcker do his job that he remained chairman during the Reagan administration and into the first Bush administration. Go to the nineties when the hated Clinton was office and rates were as low as 5% at one point. But that's not the point. The point isn't about comparing a Republican to a Democrat. It's about policies that have triggered huge deficit spending, squeezing out money to lend, despite a low prime rate; a sluggish economy from the lack of real economic stimulation; and the burden of the cost of taking down and rebuilding a country (Iraq) that was not a real threat to the US nor a country that had attacked the US. We have a country under the leadership of a President and advisers who are not doing a good job. Bush champions are really apologists and excuse makers.

[Wow]

If we passed H.R. 2525 , the U.S. economy would triple in ten years. Most people are scared of this much change in the system though. Study HR 2525 , it has advantages.

[Super 8]

[quote]Originally posted by alcohol: [b] Bush champions are really apologists and excuse makers.[/b][/quote]Geesh! Maybe they just disagree with YOU! Did you ever think of that? Just because YOU believe it, doesn't make it the gospel truth. Did you ever stop to fucking think that there is more than ONE opinion on how a country should be run? It's funny... If we talk about religion, EVERYBODY'S opinion is valid and should be tolerated. But if we talk politics, only MY opinion is valid and everyone else is full of shit.