Favorite vocoder

[BP3]

What vocoder do you favor, both for live and studio use?

[Tonysounds]

[Analogaddict]

The nord Modular G2 gives me all the vocoding I want and is fully tweakable. The V-synth/Roland vocoders sound nice too.

[bourniplus]

It's about time there's a vocoder thread on this forum!

[DanS]

I prefer a Roncoder. It vocodes, slices & dices, & makes julienne fries.

 

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Bluntinst/Whole-Encoder.jpg

[Tusker]

I use the vocoder on my Nord Modular. As analog addict pointed out, it's tweakable.

 

You can insert modules before and after the vocoder. You can even do "inverse vocoding" which increases the musicality of the patch in my view:

 

Subtract your voice from white noise, and use that as the modulator. This technique keeps most of the bands open most of the time, so that you don't have to be speaking to play a musical line. When you do speak, it colors the carrier, which doesn't have to be as constantly rich in harmonics as with "forward vocoding". Backward vocoding works with non-vocal signals just as well as forward vocoding. Hope this helps,

 

Jerry

[MusicWorkz]

I bought the Korg R3 just for that feature and it always amazes when I use it. I've gotten to tweaking some of the sounds to really hlp it cut thru a live mix and have had no issues with it.

[Joe P]

Hi Folks,

What do you guys use the vocoders for in performance? How are you treating your vocal?

 

Pardon my ignorance, but I'm asking because at an Asia concert I recently attended Geoff Downes treated his vocal somehow. Every time he sang a vocal he stepped on a pedal that treated it. I'm just wondering if it can give somebody who can't otherwise sing, at least the ability to provide background vocals. (The somebody I'm referring to is me. , not Mr. Downes.) I guess I'm asking if it can "pitch rectify".

 

Regards,

Joe

[Moog_Man]

http://www.stoffelshome.de/vocoder/pic/electrix_warpfactory.jpg

 

electrix warp factory. pretty cool

 

if you have lotsa $$ get of one these

http://rolandclan.info/media/images/vp-330.jpg

 

very cool

[Tusker]

I'm just wondering if it can give somebody who can't otherwise sing, at least the ability to provide background vocals.

 

Joe, it's not typically used for that purpose, except in devices like the VP550 which are designed for vocal modeling.

 

What you want for BG vox is something like this ...

 

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/search.php?s=vocal+harmonizer&go=Go%21

 

Many of these have pitch correction algorithms to smooth out a sometimes "pitchy" vocal. However "placing" your voice and generating a smooth base tone, is still up to you. Hope this helps,

 

Jerry

[MusicWorkz]

Hi Folks,

What do you guys use the vocoders for in performance? How are you treating your vocal?

 

Pardon my ignorance, but I'm asking because at an Asia concert I recently attended Geoff Downes treated his vocal somehow. Every time he sang a vocal he stepped on a pedal that treated it. I'm just wondering if it can give somebody who can't otherwise sing, at least the ability to provide background vocals. (The somebody I'm referring to is me. , not Mr. Downes.) I guess I'm asking if it can "pitch rectify".

 

Regards,

Joe

 

It is not so much about "treating" vocals as it is about using a synth effect with the voice as its basis. It isn't like providing background vocals as much as it is adding color to the sound.

[Ed Coury]

If you have a synth that accepts it, the Yamaha PLG100VH Vocal Harmony Plug-In Expansion Board offers background vocal and traditional vocoder abilities.

[BP3]

I almost picked up the Vocoder Plus off eBay a few months ago but couldn't justify the price, $1600.

 

Does anyone like soft-vocoders?

[gliderproarc]

I only have one soft vocoder... okay only one vocoder period.

But I'm rather amazed how well Logic's vocoder can work in a live setting. The EVO 20 PS, isn't the most advanced vocoder out there, but it has quite a few things you can do with it.

[Moog_Man]

Yes, definitely expensive. But the vocoder plus also has amazing analog strings. if I ever have a lot of extra cash lying around it would be sweet to have.

[xmlguy]

A vocoder is not designed to do backup vocal harmony. That's what a vocal harmonizer does. Take a look at the Digitech Vocalist Live 2 or 4, a TC Helicon VoiceTone Harmony M (midi version), or TC Helicon VoiceWorks rack (does pitch correction too).

[Yoozer]

You can even do "inverse vocoding" which increases the musicality of the patch in my view

This sounds intriguing! Got a screenshot or the PCH file on how everything's connected when you do this?

 

Also, do you use the built-in oscillators for the carrier or one of the inputs?

[clusterchord]

in software, i used Orange Vocoder in the past, and it was pretty usable, cept the fact you couldnt route another DAW track to be used as carrier, as sidechaining wasnt working in ASIO at the time. so u were limited to onboard virtual synth.+ - i had to render each chord separately.

 

nowadays, im using Roland SVC-350, and it has beautiful, classic tone from late 70s or early 80s. usually with obxa as carrier. u can use it with or without on-board ensemble effect. very flexible. considering going prices i think its still best buy vintage on the market.

 

http://www.britcore.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/roland-svc-350-vocoder.jpg

[Gary75]

I have this, it is fantastic, based on the EMS 5000 vocoder

 

http://www.eiosis.com/elsvocoder

 

The EMS was used to give you that Cylon voice

[Tusker]

Yoozer, I am on a new computer, and I haven't found one of those patches yet. When I find them, I'll pm and send them to you. (There is a lot going on in them that is not related to this concept. Expander after vocoder, etc)

 

Also, do you use the built-in oscillators for the carrier or one of the inputs?

 

I use a complete small patch (with a filter and amp envelope).

 

Here's the audio routing (from memory)...

 

- Audio in to invert-level-shift set to phase inversion.

 

- Audio goes to 3 input mixer, summed with white noise from noise generator

 

- I recall LPFing the signal in a Filter C at this point to remove the crinkle

 

- Signal sent to control input of vocoder. A complete small patch is sent in as a carrier.

 

Best if I can send you a patch, but I hope this helps,

 

Jerry

[Analogaddict]

I'd love to have a look at that patch too - unless You're on a NM classic, I sold my micro and am all G2 nowadays...

[Mark Schmieder]

It's interesting to see some of the same conclusions reached here as on other forums of late. That's probably testimony to how hard it is to build a good vocoder, that most people afre in agreement.

 

MoogMan notes the two most favoured dedicated hardware vocoders, and clusterchord augments this with the rack version of the Roland (which is very elusive). Vintage Synth Explorer and a few other sites seem to feel the Roland had that special "something" and was best value at the time (but its inflationary used prices are hard to justify), while not technically being the best or most versatile vocoder.

 

Many prefer the EMS series, which is emulated by the excellent (and definitely best in breed as far as software vocoders go) ELS from Eiosis (as mentioned by b3boy). This is now my personal favourite as well, due to its "grit" and analog warmth, its depth, and how well it retains intelligibility where needed but how musical it is in not being TOO pure in that regard (in my opinion, this is one of the many downsides to Orange Vocoder, whose timbre I just can't warm up to and which sounds too "digital" to my ears). The EMS was quite expensive, as was the much earlier Sennheiser (which is even more elusive and expensive on the used market).

 

I owned the MS2000BR and then the RADIAS, but sold both once I got my Prophet '08. I found the vocoder on the RADIAS too touchy for live use, but it was great in the studio. Yet not as good or as versatile as the Eiosis ELS, so I had no reason to keep it. In some ways the MS2000 and microKorg are a bit easier in the live setting as their input is less fiddly in terms of avoiding clipping. A compressor between the mic and the synth might help.

 

I had thought about holding out for a used or B-stock Roland VP550 for live use, and downloaded the manual to study, but it is overpriced for what it does and for its general lack of programmability (the main reason I decided against it). I may still hold out for some flavour of V-Synth eventually, but would like to hear back from those who use it for live vocoding, as I'm not convinced it would be very practical on stage due to its lack of direct dedicated control (this may be my own misunderstanding, as the V-Synth may have a screen mode that is easily recalled and which is intuitive and quick to use on stage).

 

The Yamaha VH100 card is quite good considering its low bit depth and its age. I used one for a few years when I had a Motif ES workstation, but it was quite annoying in its quirkiness when used in Mix Mode (which I no longer use as I don't use MIDI on stage anymore and instead use audio backing where needed). But I may re-buy that card for my CS6x if I don't find another hardware solution soon.

 

Which brings me back to the Electrix model, which has a Version 2 hardware update that's supposed to start shipping this June for a mere $200. I had somehow never heard of Electrix until a few weeks ago, but everything they make gets top reviews from Vintage Synth Explorer, the trade periodicals, and user reviews at harmony-central.

 

This ultra-cheap vocoder sounds like it might be the B's Knees, but I'm concerned that it doesn't seem to have presets, as I don't think I could quickly go from a robotic devilish growl (such as the intro to "1999") to a chordal harmony part a la "Bizarre Love Triangle" with a few flicks of the wrist while in the heat of a gig -- I'd rather create personal/custom presets ahead of the gig. Does the Electrix unit support such recall?

[BP3]

How about the Micro-Q as vocoder? Anyone have one?

[Mark Schmieder]

I had one but sold it. I found the vocoder implementation to be less oriented towards vocals than effecting drums/etc. This is also my impression of the vocoder capabilities of the Ion/Micron and the Virus series. Of the VA's, the one that seems the most likely match for vintage vocoded vocals is the G2 Modular.

[xmlguy]

I agree with MusicWorkz about the R3. Just don't judge the R3 vocoder by the presets alone. You can download my HyperVoc patch from KorgForums. It was designed specifically to get an ultra clean vocode. The quality of a vocode also depends on flexibility in the synth engine to produce a carrier that works well for this kind of modulation, and the R3 has the Radias engine structure to handle that aspect very nicely. The R3 is significantly better than the MicroKorg/MS2K for vocoding because it doesn't lose any synth structure when using the vocoder, while the MK/MS2K loses one of the two timbres when the vocoder is used, loses OSC2 (and therefore cross/ring modulation with OSC1), and eliminates the virtual patches.

 

The R3 also allows you to save Formant data to memory locations, and extremely useful feature to use stored vocoder effect in a live situation without having to use the mic. None of the other vocoders mentioned have that features, as far as I have seen.

 

The R3/Radias are great for live use, but not without spending quite a bit of time learning how to get a good vocode. Let me assure you that the biggest limitation is the person doing the vocode, not the equipment itself. That is no slam intended, it's just a tricky process that takes time and lots of experimentation to dial in a good vocode. That why the formant data feature is so useful: you can get a great formant sample under ideal conditions that you use for a good vocode during a live performance, with poor recording conditions.

[Mark Schmieder]

Well, I was referring to levels setting, which I found more sensitive on RADIAS than either PLG100VH or MS2000, and thus too hairy for live use when there is no time for fiddling around (we do not have gaps between songs, for instance).

 

In the studio, RADIAS was a huge step forward from MS2000, for the reasons listed above. The presets aren't very good; I made my own. It didn't take long, but at a gig there wouldn't be time as the tiniest change can have devastating effects and that's too risky for a gig.

[Jonathan Hughes]

I have a MicroQ, and the vocoder is just okay. It's hard to get anything real intelligible out of it, and it generally doesn't sound much like the classic vocoders that we all know and love.

[xmlguy]

Well, I was referring to levels setting, which I found more sensitive on RADIAS than either PLG100VH or MS2000, and thus too hairy for live use when there is no time for fiddling around (we do not have gaps between songs, for instance).

 

In the studio, RADIAS was a huge step forward from MS2000, for the reasons listed above. The presets aren't very good; I made my own. It didn't take long, but at a gig there wouldn't be time as the tiniest change can have devastating effects and that's too risky for a gig.

 

There are several parameters that can cause the problem you describe if set incorrectly for a live gig, particularly the GateSensitivity, Threshold, E.F.Sense, and FcModInt parameters. Too bad you don't have the Radias anymore, because I bet the problem you experienced could've been resolved. If you had adjusted these parameters in a quiet environment, they could've been way out of wack to be usable in a live gig. You can get into a situation where no input level setting will produce a good vocode, which is what I suspect happened to you.