1980's tech replacing real musicians

[ikeaman]

hi im new around here. im actually writing an essay on how synths played a big part in 80s music yadda yadda yadda. was there a point where they started to replace real session players i.e. it all ended up with one person programming the whole thing when midi was introduced? does anyone know if there was ever a big backlash against synths/drum machines etc and did the musicians union get involved..at least in the USA. im in the UK and i cant seem to find anything on this here!

 

i do remember reading an interview with phil oakey (human league) in keyboard mag a while back. he said when they used the fairlight/or synclav (forget which one!), the other band members werent very happy as it kind of boiled into one guy (two i guess..jam and lewis) who did the whole album. another story i read involved gary moore (guitarist) and he replaced his drummer with a drum machine during the recording of 'wild frontier'..his drummer wasnt pleased at all.

 

if there are any stories around here id love to hear about them or maybe someone could point me in the right direction on the net. i was in high school in the 80s so i wouldnt know ... apologies if this post is in the wrong section of the forum. thanks anyone

jondimac

www.jondimac.com

[mate stubb]

ikeaman,

 

The backlash in the US happened much earlier, in the early 70's when the synthesizer first appeared. That was when the Musician's Union got all bent out of shape.

 

By 1980, the topic was drummers losing jobs to drum machines.

[ikeaman]

thanks mate_stubb for that bit of info...maybe i should change my topic and move it back to the 70's...or just write about drum machines ..nice chroma and expander photo btw.

ikeaman

www.jondimac.com

[Dave Horne]

I remember reading an article not too very long ago (within the last ten years) of session string players getting pissed that a keyboard player replaced a handful of their compatriots. Normally they might have used 12 string players or so on a session; with the keyboard player fattening up their sound with his string patches, the producer could get away with six or so.

 

I forget the actual numbers involved but the keyboard player in question was a well known synth programmer as well as a keyboard player. The article might have been in Keyboard.

[iLaw]

The battle is still being waged. Check out this New York Times article from a few years ago.

 

Larry.

[delirium]

"it is estimated that by 2011 all live musicians will be replaced by software and hardware synths..."

 

(quote from Daily Bullsh*t)

[Yoozer]

hi im new around here. im actually writing an essay on how synths played a big part in 80s music yadda yadda yadda.

If you're doing that, don't forget what the DX7 did to the rest of the (analog) synths, and what the D50 and M1 did to the DX7. It's 2 pretty huge revolutions in a row.

 

does anyone know if there was ever a big backlash against synths/drum machines etc

I'd say the early 90's, but then synths discovered a nice niche of their own - electronic dance music.

 

and he replaced his drummer with a drum machine during the recording of 'wild frontier'..his drummer wasnt pleased at all.

Of course not, but a drum machine is not a magic solution - especially early ones didn't have the realism and groove a good human drummer would have.

[MurMan]

I think that this battle is being faught mostly in musical theatre. This venue has ideal for sequencing because it has lot's of performances that are pretty much the same with the need for a wide variety of instrumentation. Also, the musicians are not the focus and are usually hidden from the audience, so no one misses them.

 

In most other live venues, the musicians are the primary or secondary focus and there is a need for lots of flexibility with the vocalists.

[MikeT156]

Some good points. There's a lot of variables when it comes to how many musicians one can use on a recording, and as MurMan stated, the musical theater is a prime example of where recorded music could be used instead of live players. A lot of it has to do with what you can afford. I did some recordings of original material back in the eighties, and I had a slew of synths that I used for my songs when doing my demos for the record company. In one case, I felt that using live strings was a better option for one particular song I was recording, so I hired a very good string quartet that also had a hand in making the arrangement better. I was fortunate that someone else was paying for the recording sessions or I wouldn't have been able to use a real string quartet.

 

Synths are great for live work where you just can't carry around a orchestra, unless you are famous act that can afford it.

 

I agree with Yoozer about drum machines. There's still no substitute for a REAL drummer. Now if I could only figure out a way to keep the drummer SOBER and not hitting on my old lady......

 

Mike T.

[iLaw]

I think that this battle is being faught mostly in musical theatre...

 

... and already mostly lost among professional dance companies of all flavors.

 

Larry.

[Dave Horne]

http://www.accessatlanta.com/arts/content/arts/stories/0721LVballet.html

[ProfD]

From the 80s up to present, technology has enabled producers and musicians to cut corners. Initially, there was a backlash until musicians figured out how to incorporate it too which resulted in the decline of recording studios.

 

However, nowadays, both in the studio and live, folks are using both technology and live musicians. Just depends on the nature of the project.

[magronbass]

didn't broadway have a strike a while back because of this? Or maybe I heard wrong. Or maybe they were just "thinking" about it. Many times the performances are miced, so it really makes no difference if they just played it through the PA. (with minimal per performance variation) Probably wouldn't notice it unless you were very close to the pit.

 

found the article:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=980CE2DD1E3FF93BA35750C0A9659C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

 

In the long run tho, I think it's safe to not mess with the balance of power.. forget economics, but for the sake of preserving an outlet for performers. We've already kick started a bad cycle.. less outlets = high price, high price = less outlest.. and this cycle is very hard to reverse.. until there are no musicians left?

[MikeT156]

Economics is a key factor. That is also the case for live entertainment ay local clubs. As we all know, the want to pay musicians what they did in the last century. They have so many more options than live players these days, we have to take what they want to give us or not play. Economics was one of the reasons I started doing a solo act years ago, and stopped doing bands. There were other reasons too, but I got tired of hearing club owners say they would play a 5 piece band $200 bucks a night, take it or leave it. So I left it.

 

 

Mike T.

[iLaw]

Here in Chicago, last time I looked in the pit, "Wicked," which can undoubtedly afford as many traditional instrumentalists as desired, has four K-series Kurzweils lined up. There are a lot of factors that go into that personnel/instrumentation decision, and if we start listing them we can probably write ikeaman's essay for him.

 

As Mel Brooks would say, it's good to play keyboards.

 

Larry.

 

[zahush76]

i think that the possibility of one guy programming synths in order to replace a whole band has already been done in the 70's:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qRX_Y4J-BA

[iLaw]

Zahush,

 

Loved that video! It cracked me up that he has sequenced the bass drum but manually triggers (or pretends to trigger) the snare.

 

Where was this video when we were discussing non-keytar ways of making keyboard players the center of attention?

 

Larry.

[ProfD]

As Mel Brooks would say, it's good to play keyboards.

 

+1

 

All things considered, a KB player can always find work.

 

However, we will not be writing that essay.

[Mark Schmieder]

We were all relieved at first when drum machines came out, because they were so much more reliable than drummer at the time. That was the era when the drummer was typically the least stable person/musician in a band, generally having a cocaine habit, not showing up for rehearsals/gigs, passing out on stage, etc.

 

Ironically, in today's world, the drummer is more often than not the most stable and dependable bandmember -- as it should be (along with the bassist :-)). Thus drum machines have run their course, except for DJ-based scratch/rap/etc.

[Tonysounds]

Here in Chicago, last time I looked in the pit, "Wicked," which can undoubtedly afford as many traditional instrumentalists as desired, has four K-series Kurzweils lined up.

 

Yep, 4x 2600s (each played by a human!), but they also use a live drummer (in a booth), bassist, guitarist/mandolinist, at least 2 horn players. Still a larger size crew than I thought would fit in there.

[zephonic]

I remember an old Tuscan newspaper clip, probably dating from around 1700. It reports of the fiddler's union threatening with strikes if the new devillish fortepiano is not banned immediately. Says the union's spokesman "With this machine a single person may take on the job of a string quartet, and thus bereave three highly qualified musicians of their rightful earnings".

 

And is it just me, or does Jean-Michel Jarre really look more like an illusionist than a musician?

 

[ikeaman]

 

...funny you should include the JMJ link zahush76..im actually doing a JMJ tribute gig at the end of my semester this may as part of my course. now i like JMJ (grew up with his stuff in the 80s) but me, nor any of my lecturers can never really figure out what parts he plays in his live gigs. ive been told by many about my tribute gig to just to 'mime the f*&%er' like the real thing. suffice to say JMJ's not too popular with the musos in my college.

i did go and see his oxygene tour the other day and it was all live with vintage gear..yes he did play but he's no technician. at the end of the day i guess its his music that counts.

you know what...f%*^ it ill just mime the gig..now if i can only find a laser ill be set!

 

zephonic...a lot of people i know think JMJ is a fraud. doh! just watch any of his dvds and vids..like i said its never really clear what he plays. if you check out his new oxygene live dvd or if you can catch the tour..i dont know man..he cant really play! (did i just say that!!??). who am i to judge the guy, he's brought his music to millions and counting!

 

profD ...dayymmnnn i almost got away with you guys writing my essay for me ...how bout ill trade someone a roland space echo 301 for 5000 words?? doh! youre right- keyboard players always seem to get hired!

 

MikeT156...i hear ya. same thing here i kinda stopped working with bands and went solo/duo because the money was better and venues just would not pay anymore. a couple of my guitarist friends did the same. i havent met a bass player who went that route and stuck to his instrument...they all had to learn how to play guitar! drummers...i dont know any drummers who do solo corporate/wedding gigs.

..although i have to admit i know a few drummers that need to be replaced by machines

ive just joined a wedding/corporate band and man these guys must be the only band in the world who does not want to have a good time!! everything has to be played down to last insignificant string line that none of the audience cares about and i get hassled if i dont do it exactly the same! grrrr. of course i dont it the same and im doing the gig with only my keytar and a triton rack.

 

Yoozer.. yes im going to write about the whole dx7 thing and the fact that everything became affordable(ish)...ill also mention the d50/m1 and stuff like that. im glad i was around when that whole thing happened. i thought it was pretty exciting.

 

im checking out this book called 'any sound you can imagine' by paul theberge. its actually quite helpful and interesting and has a whole section of the 'consumption and democratization' regarding digital synths, sounds and midi. check it out if you havent already.

 

ikeaman

www.jondimac.com

[zahush76]

...funny you should include the JMJ link zahush76..im actually doing a JMJ tribute gig at the end of my semester this may as part of my course. now i like JMJ (grew up with his stuff in the 80s) but me, nor any of my lecturers can never really figure out what parts he plays in his live gigs. ive been told by many about my tribute gig to just to 'mime the f*&%er' like the real thing. suffice to say JMJ's not too popular with the musos in my college.

i did go and see his oxygene tour the other day and it was all live with vintage gear..yes he did play but he's no technician. at the end of the day i guess its his music that counts.

you know what...f%*^ it ill just mime the gig..now if i can only find a laser ill be set!

 

zephonic...a lot of people i know think JMJ is a fraud. doh! just watch any of his dvds and vids..like i said its never really clear what he plays.

 

it's not really relevant what jmj plays on a live show. i thought the discussion was about how midi gave musicians the option of making music without needing a band. jmj might be faking it on stage. the question is what does he do in the studio, and does he need anybody else there but himself. and the point i was trying to make by showing him, was that making a synth ensemble was already possible before the invention of midi.

[ikeaman]

hey zahush76, yes your point is very valid. man- stacking all those keyboards to play multi keyboard rigs without specialized stands must have been a nightmare in the 70's.

 

i wonder what would have happened if midi wasnt invented and each individual manufacturer had thier own proprietry interface? i suppose..yes you would still be able to hook things up but youd have to buy from the same manufacturer. did midi make THAT much of an impact? i guess we'd probably be trying to organise our CV/GATE ins and out cables right now if there was no midi

 

ikeaman

www.jondimac.com

[zephonic]

 

zephonic...a lot of people i know think JMJ is a fraud. doh! just watch any of his dvds and vids..like i said its never really clear what he plays. if you check out his new oxygene live dvd or if you can catch the tour..i dont know man..he cant really play! (did i just say that!!??). who am i to judge the guy, he's brought his music to millions and counting!

 

 

I did not mean that he can't play, I wouldn't know. I just think that his on-stage mannerisms are more akin to those of an illusionist, rather than a musician.

 

I mean, he looked like he was about to make the entire rig disappear and had me wondering where the bunny would come out of

 

[alfonso]

 

zephonic...a lot of people i know think JMJ is a fraud. doh! just watch any of his dvds and vids..like i said its never really clear what he plays. if you check out his new oxygene live dvd or if you can catch the tour..i dont know man..he cant really play! (did i just say that!!??). who am i to judge the guy, he's brought his music to millions and counting!

 

 

I did not mean that he can't play, I wouldn't know. I just think that his on-stage mannerisms are more akin to those of an illusionist, rather than a musician.

 

I mean, he looked like he was about to make the entire rig disappear and had me wondering where the bunny would come out of

 

The poor (well, not really) guy has been through the hassles of reality though....

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=aFdzjmnWb0s&feature=related

 

 

[Bosendorphen]

I remember reading an article not too very long ago (within the last ten years) of session string players getting pissed that a keyboard player replaced a handful of their compatriots. Normally they might have used 12 string players or so on a session; with the keyboard player fattening up their sound with his string patches, the producer could get away with six or so.

 

I forget the actual numbers involved but the keyboard player in question was a well known synth programmer as well as a keyboard player. The article might have been in Keyboard.

 

That sounds like the December 1983 issue of Keyboard which featured "The Great Synthesizer Debate" which had interviews with prominent people on both sides of the issue such as Barry Kornfeld, Jim Knight, Derek Austin, Ralph Grierson and Neil Lancaster. Fascinating reading Ikeaman, if you can track down a copy.

 

[ikeaman]

doh! you know id hate it if it happened to me so i do feel for him...the last thing you need is your gear to mess up. i had stuff happen to my gear in front of an audience and yeah the sweat starts showing. when i saw JMJ the other night a couple of things were out but not as bad as that vid. wonder if he took a bunch of VST's of those instruments intead of the real thing for the tour...would it sound the same(ey)?

 

ikeaman

www.jondimac.com

[ikeaman]

thanks bosendorphin ill check with keyboard if they still have a copy of that. this first keyboard mag i ever bought had nick rhodes on the cover!

 

ikeaman

http://www.jondimac.com

[Bosendorphen]

thanks bosendorphin ill check with keyboard if they still have a copy of that. this first keyboard mag i ever bought had nick rhodes on the cover!

 

Ah yes, the May 1984 issue with the Voyetra 8 review! Those were the days.