1980's tech replacing real musicians

[Dave Horne]

I remember reading an article not too very long ago (within the last ten years) of session string players getting pissed that a keyboard player replaced a handful of their compatriots. Normally they might have used 12 string players or so on a session; with the keyboard player fattening up their sound with his string patches, the producer could get away with six or so.

 

I forget the actual numbers involved but the keyboard player in question was a well known synth programmer as well as a keyboard player. The article might have been in Keyboard.

 

That sounds like the December 1983 issue of Keyboard which featured "The Great Synthesizer Debate" which had interviews with prominent people on both sides of the issue such as Barry Kornfeld, Jim Knight, Derek Austin, Ralph Grierson and Neil Lancaster. Fascinating reading Ikeaman, if you can track down a copy.

 

Actually I think the player in question was Jason Miles and the article was in the last ten years or so, but I could be wrong, I've been wrong many times.

[acctjm]

I guess when the technology works its way down to the bottom rungs it becomes karaoke?

 

acctjm

[Synthoid]

I remember reading an article not too very long ago (within the last ten years) of session string players getting pissed that a keyboard player replaced a handful of their compatriots. Normally they might have used 12 string players or so on a session

 

Those 12 string players should have gotten together and bought a Fairlight back then. Problem solved.

 

[Bill Heins]

First the drummer, drunk as usual, is fighting with his g/f and winds up passing out in the bathroom....next the horn section fails to show up due to a nasty blackhole in Akron, and finally...the guitarplayer is still out in the parkinglot looking for the pick he dropped which leaves Bob to carry on on his own-

http://www.theanchorcenter.com/pics/onemanband.jpg

[Cygnus64]

Good thread. I'm an anomaly: a pro violinist who loves and plays synths!

 

I play a lot of broadway shows, do ballet, lots of backup for entertainers. The virtual orchestra/synths vs. real players is a very complex issue.

 

In some cases, its sheer greed. Beauty and the Beast used 4 K2500s when I did it. It had only 2 violins, 1st and 2nd. That just aint enough, and the audience suffers.Its a big lush score, and a big lush corporation. Sheer greed by Disney.

 

As for ballet, the orchestra for something like the Nutcracker is AS important as whats on stage. Without it, its dance karaoke: the dancers cant stretch tempos or accel. if the moment calls for it. Its VERY expensive, we orchestra players make more than the dancers, a lot more. But its the nature of the beast.

 

Organizations like ballet, opera and symphony have marketing directors, directors of financial planning and directors of development. Their jobs are to shake hands with Mr. and Mrs. Money. When those organizations are cutting people, its often because those people arent doing their jobs.

 

There is also a Board: to be on a board for something like that is very prestigious. One can make business connections, the board is basically the who's who of the community. However, it takes a LOT OF WORK. Whats been happening is that the board members want the prestige, but dont give a crap about the art. They are literally TRYING to downsize organizations. If they do, they dont have to raise money or give money. All they want is to do their schmoozing, but they dont care about the product. They are often people like Bank Presidents, as our opera board prez was. He cut the budget from 6 million to 3 million. What does he care? He probably hated opera, it just looked good on his bio.

 

As for the Union: its the biggest joke ever. Its set up so that a handful of people get something from it, while thousands pay dues and get nothing. Ive been in for 25 years. It protects a handful of broadway shows and some L.A. stuff. By FAR, the dues all comes from symphony players. Its really a Ponzi scheme, and its very corrupt. But ya gotta be in it to work, so you pay your dues and get nothing in return. I was in an orchestra that folded, the New Orleans Symphony went under in 1991. The union couldnt care less, and all they did was send us notices to pay our quarterly dues.

 

As for recording: guilty as charged. As I said, I LOVE synths. I use them all the time. In the 80s, I did a ton of recording (on violin). Lots of jingles, albums, movies, documentaries etc. In the 90s I did some at the beginning. Now, I do maybe 5 classical CDs a year tops, I made two last week. Its dead. But I see no reason to be FORCED to use anybody. If ya dont want 12 strings, you dont want twelve strings. Just hire me: I will overdub all the strings AND fatten them with synths.

[Dave Horne]

I remember reading an article not too very long ago (within the last ten years) of session string players getting pissed that a keyboard player replaced a handful of their compatriots. Normally they might have used 12 string players or so on a session

 

Those 12 string players should have gotten together and bought a Fairlight back then. Problem solved.

 

 

Remind me not to speak to you if we're both standing in the unemployment line.

[Bosendorphen]

Actually I think the player in question was Jason Miles and the article was in the last ten years or so, but I could be wrong, I've been wrong many times.

 

Ah Dave, I recall that more recent Jason Miles article as well. I believe both that article and the Dec. 1983 issue raised interesting points. I think it's a fascinating topic myself and appreciate the responses and the links in this thread to related topics. Cygnus64's position is particularly intriguing being a string player (I played cello myself for some years).

 

I went to the Barnum and Bailey Circus last year (not my idea, I'm not a fan of circi) but was amazed at the orchestra music backdrop supplied by what appeared to be just a few people; two keyboardists, a guitarist and bassist.

[resigned]

I dunno... it's strange to me that we have these amazing instruments of the 21st century at hand yet were not supposed to play them? And since almost any instrument can now be used as a MIDI controller then why is all the blame for musicians being put out of work still being thrown at keyboard players?

 

I'd love to perform with musicians who have kept up with technology to the degree that I and other keyboardists have, no matter what they play. But by and large they haven't... everyone wants to be "old school". Nothing wrong with that... I still love the sound of a real piano or a B3... but if I want to sound like an orchestra (even one from another planet) I'm not going to let some whiney laggers tell me not to. If I put someone out of work they probably deserve it for not diversifying and learning new crafts.

[MikeT156]

Note to Cygnus64:

 

Your post is the most insightful and honest assessment of the music business I've read in a long time. In particular, you comments about the "so called" musicians union. It is a totally bad joke. I was a member of the union back in my home town. There were members that actually played live gigs back in those days (the sixties) but there were far more "has beens" in the organization than real players. Most of the members that were long in the tooth union members got the bulk of whatever $$$ there was from the local. The union where I live now is much better than my hometown local, but its kinda pointless, it has no power. People that hire musicians, DJ's, play a sound system as background, or run a sports bar do whatever the hell they want. Caulk it up to capitalism.

 

Mike T.

[Synthoid]

I remember reading an article not too very long ago (within the last ten years) of session string players getting pissed that a keyboard player replaced a handful of their compatriots. Normally they might have used 12 string players or so on a session

 

Those 12 string players should have gotten together and bought a Fairlight back then. Problem solved.

 

 

Remind me not to speak to you if we're both standing in the unemployment line.

 

No problem.

[ProfD]

Since the advent of synths 30 plus years ago, musicians are finding work.

 

While technology has changed the way folks work, hire musicians, etc., I believe competing forms of entertainment have dwindled the marketplace moreso than technology.

 

Last time I went to see live musicians perform, the place was packed. There wasn't a synth or sequencer in sight.

 

Still, it takes skill and musicianship to program and play synths and sequencers. Not the case when it comes to spinning (DJ) or singing-a-long to records (karaoke).

 

There is plenty work for musicians. Just have to expand the skill set and know the market. Gigs do not fall out of the sky a la the 'old days'.

 

 

[MikeT156]

Quote by ProfD:

 

"While technology has changed the way folks work, hire musicians, etc., I believe competing forms of entertainment have dwindled the marketplace more so than technology."

 

I agree with you there D. Clubs and anywhere that people socialize have a lot more options than they did in "The old days". Sports Bars, Weddings, Karaoke, DJ's, Rap & Hip Hop Clubs leave traditional live music in the dust. That's another reasons that the amount of $$ places pay is no higher than it was 30 years ago.

 

Mike T.

[richwhite9]

The economics of alcohol haven't changed in thirty years. Young adults flock to bars w/ a cheap cover (ladies night) and $1.00 Bud specials.

 

Consider the increased labor costs of staff, taxes, utilities/oil, and 'government compliance/issues and it's a stagnant business model.

 

In the 70s disco bands, Soul/Funk/Blues bands, and rock cover bands could co-exist. Today Soul/Funk/Blues is largely dead, Rap is the new disco w/ DJs rather than seven piece bands, and very few rock cover bands can do it F/T.

 

The 60s and 70s saw the end of Big Bands as a practical economic matter and the 90s and 00s brought an end to the five-man band.

[Cygnus64]

I still love the sound of a real piano or a B3... but if I want to sound like an orchestra (even one from another planet) I'm not going to let some whiney laggers tell me not to. If I put someone out of work they probably deserve it for not diversifying and learning new crafts.

 

Its not as simple as that. Particularly in theatre, its more about tradition and aesthetics than anything else. In many cases, its cheating the audience. In Jacksonville FL, the orchestra was locked out (opposite of strike) this year over contract stuff, and did not play the Nutcracker. However, the tickets were sold months in advance and said the Jacksonville Symphony would be in the pit. They werent and the production used a tape. Yet, the ticket prices werent altered or refunded. Thats criminal, the audience got ripped off. Thats gonna piss off a large percentage of the audience, who will never come back.

 

There is a difference betwen tradition and learning "new crafts". Its like going to historic Williamsburg and seeing people dressed like Puritans. They dont wear sneakers, and if you saw one talking on a cell phone it would really blow the moment. It is as important as the product. Plus, there is no synth on the planet that can emulate a group of players. To do so, you would need a group of synth players. That would cost more because of cartage.

 

Every player brings something to the table. Having 6 string players = having 6 schools of thought. 6 different ways of communicating through music. Some are exacting, some play with big tones, some have a Russian approach, etc. It all blends together to get that lush sound. You cant replace it with one player of any instrument. The only way to get the same results would be to have 6 players.

 

In general, the people pushing the virtual orchestras are doing it for greed. "Wicked" is smokin hot and can afford to hire anybody they want. Shows like Beauty and the Beast make zillions. Its always the audience that suffers, they dont get the real deal. The excitement in any live production is the possibility of it falling apart! People get caught up in the moment and do things differently. If the producers didnt think they were ripping the audience off, they wouldnt use emulative instruments. They are trying to make it "SOUND" like the real deal, so people think they are PAYING for the real deal. Its not the real deal, and people are paying 80 bucks for a certain expectation and not getting it. When they cut musicians, they dont cut ticket prices.

 

When I lived in New Orleans, the symphony had a big gala event and the guest artist was Harry Connick. People paid lots of money to attend, it was a party with a performance included. When it was time for the show, out comes this old man. Who was he? Harry Connick. Senior. He was the DA in town. Talk about deception, those people got ripped off. They thought they were getting the real deal.

 

 

 

 

 

[iLaw]

Cygnus,

 

Let me start by saying that I have generally agreed with everything you've posted in this thread. You sound like a fascinating, interesting person to talk with at length, both about music and (the various) music businesses.

 

But, as you said, it's not as simple as that ...

 

... In Jacksonville FL, the orchestra was locked out (opposite of strike) this year over contract stuff, and did not play the Nutcracker. However, the tickets were sold months in advance and said the Jacksonville Symphony would be in the pit. They werent and the production used a tape. Yet, the ticket prices werent altered or refunded. Thats criminal, the audience got ripped off. Thats gonna piss off a large percentage of the audience, who will never come back ...

It is my understanding that the Jacksonville Symphony Association did offer refunds, and that hardly any ticket-holders took them up on the offer! We'll see what happens in the future but, frankly, the JSO's future is probably more tied to the rest of the JSO season cancellations than to the use of recorded music for the Nutcracker.

 

... In general, the people pushing the virtual orchestras are doing it for greed. "Wicked" is smokin hot and can afford to hire anybody they want. Shows like Beauty and the Beast make zillions. Its always the audience that suffers, they dont get the real deal. The excitement in any live production is the possibility of it falling apart! ...

 

Respectfully, I disagree again. "Wicked" has been red hot here in Chicago for nearly forever, and I've never heard a single viewer suggest that they felt ripped off in any way, much less by the small number of musicians in the pit or the use of K2600s for orchestral sounds.

 

And I've never heard any suggestion that anyone missed the "excitement" of out-of-tune horn players blowing cues and the other "falling apart"s that you suggest they're all secretly waiting for.

 

I'm no apologist for anyone in the music theater business. But I worked keyboards in the pit enough to know that, each time, the decision to use me and my Kurzweil was tied to a number of factors, some artistic, some organisational, some practical, and only one of which might have been the cost savings associated with using a synth in place of traditional instruments.

 

Larry.

[burningbusch]

I would think that by maybe 2050, robots will be replacing real musicians in these live situations. Already they are able to play trumpet and violin, two of the most difficult instruments. In forty years they will undoubtedly have made huge progress.

 

Busch.

[Cygnus64]

 

NIce post Larry,

 

disagree or not, its always great to talk to someone who knows their stuff and does their homework. I'm very impressed that you know about the Jacksonville saga.

Cygnus,

 

It is my understanding that the Jacksonville Symphony Association did offer refunds, and that hardly any ticket-holders took them up on the offer! We'll see what happens in the future but, frankly, the JSO's future is probably more tied to the rest of the JSO season cancellations than to the use of recorded music for the Nutcracker.

 

 

The JSO and the Ballet are different animals. The JSO was hired to play for the ballet. I followed it closely because my first gig out of school was JSO, I played there in the mid 80s.

 

Yes, you are correct in the refund thing. HOwever, since the Nutcracker is for parents and kids, one would have to explain to an 8 year old about lockouts and unions. Nope, they just wanna see the funny dancers.

 

Did they get what they bought? No way. Did they care? We might see next year. Its hard to know since the JSO could be with them. Historically, the absence of the band in Pittsburgh, Atlanta and other places HAS hurt attendance quite a bit.

 

And I've never heard any suggestion that anyone missed the "excitement" of out-of-tune horn players blowing cues and the other "falling apart"s that you suggest they're all secretly waiting for.

 

Its the opposite: they arent getting the once-in a lifetime moments. I am talking more about tape here, not real synth players. Virtual orchestras are much different than having synth doublers. Ive heard them and been disappointed as an audience member, so now you know ONE person who felt ripped off.

[ProfD]

I would think that by maybe 2050, robots will be replacing real musicians in these live situations. Already they are able to play trumpet and violin, two of the most difficult instruments. In forty years they will undoubtedly have made huge progress.

 

Busch.

Man, that would be the pits (no pun intended).

 

I hope it doesn't happen. At least I'll be too old to care and/or not around to see it.

 

Still, I would hope the circle moves in such a way that humans will rediscover playing instruments and appreciate music.

[zahush76]

Still, it takes skill and musicianship to program and play synths and sequencers. Not the case when it comes to spinning (DJ)

 

Profd, your assumption that it's easier to dj - or that it takes less skill, is based on what?

[Dave Horne]

This will be interesting, a discussion regarding the skill and musicianship required to spin and sequence. (I assume we won't include quantizing and arpeggiating in the discussion since the term musicianship was invoked.)

 

Let's check those power connections.

[zahush76]

This will be interesting, a discussion regarding the skill and musicianship required to spin and sequence. (I assume we won't include quantizing and arpeggiating in the discussion since the term musicianship was invoked.)

 

Let's check those power connections.

 

i didn't understand why playing an instrument, and spinning records were compared by profd in the first place.

spinning records (or cd's for that matter) does not require playing skills as in an instrument. it does however require other skills, none the less. washing the dishes also doesn't require playing skills. so???

a lot of people think dj'ing is easy - but when they try it themselves, the dancefloor empties in a matter of seconds.

 

it's the condesending assumption that to be a dj - does not require any skill at all, that pisses me off (being both a keyboard player and a dj - which makes me respect them both).

a lot of very stupid people (not neccesserily from this forum)that don't really know what they are talking about (or don't have any experience), think that it only means inserting a cd and pressing the play button. it's interesting, how some people on this forum often critisize other players that write their opinion about a keyboard they never actually played - blaming them for writing an opinion which is based on nothing. please have the integrity of doing the same - regarding a line of work you know very little about (if at all).

 

 

[Edgar Summers]

I would think that by maybe 2050, robots will be replacing real musicians in these live situations. Already they are able to play trumpet and violin, two of the most difficult instruments. In forty years they will undoubtedly have made huge progress.

 

Busch.

 

I remember some Asimov stories about Men interfacing with robots.

(robot voice)

"I AM one with the machine"

[Synthoid]

... In Jacksonville FL, the orchestra was locked out (opposite of strike) this year over contract stuff, and did not play the Nutcracker. However, the tickets were sold months in advance and said the Jacksonville Symphony would be in the pit. They werent and the production used a tape. Yet, the ticket prices werent altered or refunded. Thats criminal, the audience got ripped off. Thats gonna piss off a large percentage of the audience, who will never come back ...

 

This isn't an exact comparison, but I was disappointed with Genesis during their reunion tour. Tony Banks was using an Oasys and some softsynths in the show. No Synclavier, Prophet 10, Arp Quadra, etc. Yeah, it's a lot more stuff to lug around but I miss the Invisible Touch days.

 

 

[MikeT156]

Quote by Zahush:

 

"it's the condesending assumption that to be a dj - does not require any skill at all, that pisses me off (being both a keyboard player and a dj - which makes me respect them both)

 

and

 

please have the integrity of doing the same - regarding a line of work you know very little about (if at all)."

 

I don't think that good DJ's are no talent bums. If they are "any good", they have to be a good MC, be able to control and work a crowd, keep people interested, and know what people want to hear and play it. They have to know how to use their DJ rig, and have a vast selection of material at their finger tips. They have to be quick.

 

I've worked a number of shows where there was a DJ in addition to me. Some were good DJ's as well as good entertainers, others just stood there and would spin disks, didn't work the crowd, and really shouldn't have been paid very much, if at all. There is good and bad in every "field".

 

But I submit it does NOT take as much talent to be a DJ than be a real musician. Argue with it if you want, but I'm afraid you're talking to the wrong group to get a lot of support here for DJ's.

 

Mike T.

[ProfD]

Still, it takes skill and musicianship to program and play synths and sequencers. Not the case when it comes to spinning (DJ)

 

Profd, your assumption that it's easier to dj - or that it takes less skill, is based on what?

I know that it takes a great deal of skill to become a DJ in the sense of turntabalist.

 

However, the traditional DJ merely spinning records at a bar or club needs nothing more than a record collection and a good ear for playing them at the right time.

 

Hopefully, nobody needs an explanation on my comment regarding karaoke singers. If so, I'm talking about the non-singers who decides to butcher a song while the music plays and words flash across the screen.

 

I'm not an elitist musician by any stretch. I understand the difference between real DJs, OMBs and the folks buying equipment from Best Buy.

 

Well, at least until BB expands the MI department.

[Cygnus64]

But I submit it does NOT take as much talent to be a DJ than be a real musician.

 

Actually, it doesnt take much talent to be a musician either. What it takes is a lot of hard work. He who puts in the hours succeeds.

[MikeT156]

Cyqnus64:

 

You have a point there. Hard work can make up for a lack of talent. My playing ability is a testament to that!

 

Mike T.

[zahush76]

I know that it takes a great deal of skill to become a DJ in the sense of turntabalist.

 

this is obviously true. it's technically difficult and takes a lot of training. but i'm saying you're wrong about what you call the "traditional" dj

you said, that:

 

the traditional DJ merely spinning records at a bar or club needs nothing more than a record collection and a good ear for playing them at the right time

 

in my opinion - based on experience - the technical side of dj'ing (spinning records and beatmixing) is about 10% of what it takes to be a good dj.

what you define as "nothing more than a record collection and a good ear for playing them" only shows you don't know much about this profession, or at least you're not talking based on experience.

looking for good music - or what is called "digging" - is a daily job which requires hours of searching, listening, and choosing. there are tons of garbage, and you have to have a very good sense of what's good and what you think might work with the crowd. this means - and i'm not kidding - about 1 good song out of a hundred. and they keep coming on a daily base. i've seen so many dj's that were sure that a track they found is going to be "the bomb", and found out people staring at them with angry eyes from the dancefloors. so what you dismiss as "just" a record collection - comes from tedious work, that relies on a good ear, good taste, and good judgment.

 

then comes the part of the djing itself. it's like a boiler room, crossed with a chess game. you have to think fast, and think five moves forward. some tracks "logically" lead to others. sometime it's because of the sonic character of the song, sometimes you find the lyrics connected, sometimes it's the mood, etc.

 

and what if what you had in mind doesn't work like you thought it would? you have to "read" the crowd. there's a lot of literature about the psychology of a dancing crowd. the dancefloor is like an organic creature that has rules of its own. you have to identify the people that make the "energy" centers, the people that create a positive vibe on the dancefloor - and start from there. i won't go into all the details because it's going to be very long if i would.

 

to sum up: what you think is easy - just looks easy from the side. try it yourself and then tell me what you think. and when i say try - i mean try and dj for a full party of 5-6 hours, and keep the dancefloor packed.

 

 

[ProfD]

i'm saying you're wrong about what you call the "traditional" dj

 

in my opinion - based on experience - the technical side of dj'ing (spinning records and beatmixing) is about 10% of what it takes to be a good dj

 

looking for good music - or what is called "digging" - is a daily job which requires hours of searching, listening, and choosing.

 

so what you dismiss as "just" a record collection - comes from tedious work, that relies on a good ear, good taste, and good judgment.

Right. I'm speaking of those traditional DJs who simply "dig" into the same bag of records that always work the dancefloor.

 

You obviously come from an entirely different perspective in terms of DJing. I respect a DJ who truly beat mines and flips tracks that keep the dancefloor packed.

 

My reference is to DJs who merely show up playing the same old tired records.

 

I'm hip to the difference between a real DJ and my uncle spinning his favorites tracks at the family reunion.