MSM for pain?

[SK]

Thanks for the info about MSM being provided here. Potentially a helpful resource thread.

 

I weigh all sides on medication, as I learned from being married to a surgeon for years. Without thorough knowledge, even doctors can mis-prescribe and sometimes do.

 

We know the rule of thumb on "self-medicating" is to thoroughly research available sources, doctors and clinical studies to make an informed decision, not just a single internet article, for example. Supposedly we use common sense caution whenever we self-medicate by taking an aspirin, or those who 'self-medicate' with alcohol. And we know that there are many great remedies out there yet to be approved.

 

It seems common sense caution was used by the posters trying MSM here. Thanks guys for sharing this info.

[Jazz+]

I haven't "bought into anything" and I don't believe in homeopathic medicine. I can report that in my case my wrists have been seriously inflamed after every gig for the past 10 years. Yet I played for 5 hours Saturday, 4 hours Sunday, 2 hours Monday, 2 hours Tuesday, 2 hours today. Each day I have been taking 2,000 - 3,000 mg a day of MSM and it just so happens that I have had almost no pain for the first time in over a decade. In my case the benefit appears to be substantial.

 

After doing some more reading, I also have started back on 1500 mg Glucosamine & 1200 mg Chondroiton daily.

 

 

[SK]

Sounds like a miracle for you, Jazz+.

 

I need to read up more on MSM.

 

 

[Dave Horne]

From Wiki ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chondroitin_sulfate

 

Most chondroitin appears to be made from extracts of cartilaginous cow and pig tissues (cow trachea and pig ear and nose), but other sources such as shark, fish and bird cartilage are also used. [it sounds just like the stuff in cat food, yummy.]

 

....

 

Due to the popularity of the glucosamine-chondroitin supplement and the lack of reliable information about its usefulness in treating osteoarthritis,[8] the National Institutes of Health funded a study to test the effects of chondroitin and glucosamine on osteoarthritis of the knee. This multicenter, placebo-controlled, double-blind, six month long trial found that glucosamine plus chondroitin had no statistically significant effect on symptoms of osteoarthritis.[9] The control group of patients who took celecoxib (a commonly used osteoarthritis drug) did have a statistically significant improvement in their symptoms. These results indicate that glucosamine and chondroitin do not effectively relieve osteoarthiritic pain. Although the study found no overall effect for the supplements, a secondary analysis concluded that the supplements taken together may be effective a subgroup of people with moderate-to-severe pain, although further research is necessary to confirm this. [end]

 

Jazz+, if the supplements work for you, great!

 

 

 

[Piano4U]

Don't know if this has been mentioned or not - Fortex Rubbing Oil

It's pretty good stuff. Time-tested and plenty of clinical data supporting the effectiveness of it's main ingredient - methyl salicylate, in a high (40%) concentration. Has that typical Ben-Gay type smell, but is actually kind of pleasant. The only problem is the oil base. Wouldn't want to put it on right before playing unless your gonna do glisses all night

[Jazz+]

From Wiki ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chondroitin_sulfate

 

Most chondroitin appears to be made from extracts of cartilaginous cow and pig tissues (cow trachea and pig ear and nose), but other sources such as shark, fish and bird cartilage are also used. [it sounds just like the stuff in cat food, yummy.]

 

....

 

Due to the popularity of the glucosamine-chondroitin supplement and the lack of reliable information about its usefulness in treating osteoarthritis,[8] the National Institutes of Health funded a study to test the effects of chondroitin and glucosamine on osteoarthritis of the knee. This multicenter, placebo-controlled, double-blind, six month long trial found that glucosamine plus chondroitin had no statistically significant effect on symptoms of osteoarthritis.[9] The control group of patients who took celecoxib (a commonly used osteoarthritis drug) did have a statistically significant improvement in their symptoms. These results indicate that glucosamine and chondroitin do not effectively relieve osteoarthiritic pain. Although the study found no overall effect for the supplements, a secondary analysis concluded that the supplements taken together may be effective a subgroup of people with moderate-to-severe pain, although further research is necessary to confirm this. [end]

 

Jazz+, if the supplements work for you, great!

 

 

 

I don't have osteoarthritis of the knee. I have a lifelong tenosinivitis condition (pretty much the same as tendonitis but it's the tendon sheath that gets inflamed from friction). Also, as I said in the first post it's the 2,000 mg of MSM that seems to have helped me NOT glucosamine plus chondroitin.

[Jazz+]

In 1978, the FDA approved DMSO for instillation into the bladder as a treatment for IC (interstitial cystitis). It decreases both bladder inflammation and pain. DMSO is metabolized to methylsulfonylmethane (MSM). In 2007, the FDA granted "fast track" designation on clinical studies of DMSO's use in reducing brain tissue swelling following traumatic brain injury.

[Dave Horne]

Again, if these off the counter, dietary supplements work for you, great. I don't say that lightly. I would not self medicate and I would not advise others to self medicate as well.

 

I do have to say, the first thought that comes to mind with chronic pain in the case of a performing musician - the physical approach to the instrument, period (that, and a lack of a rest period after the 'injury').

 

In my very narrow, personal experience regarding pain and the piano ... the only times I have experienced hand pain was when I approached the piano incorrectly (and I have written about that here extensively) ... and when I correctly play, though overdo, very technical exercises which involve undo stretching of the hand (think of repetitive, technically demanding arpeggios). Those few times when I have pain, I simply give my hands a rest ... and I can afford to take time off when that happens. If I were to experience chronic pain, I would consult a concert pianist who also teaches and consult a hand specialist.

 

Now back to DMSO ....

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyl_sulfoxide

 

History in Medicine

On September 9, 1965, the Wall Street Journal reported the death of an Irish woman after undergoing DMSO treatment for a sprained wrist [4] Clinical research using DMSO halted and did not begin again until the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) published findings in favor of DMSO in 1972.[citation needed] In 1978, the FDA approved DMSO for treating interstitial cystis. In 1980, Congress held hearings on claims that the FDA was slow in approving DMSO for other medical uses. In 2007, the FDA granted "fast track" designation on clinical studies of DMSO's use in reducing brain tissue swelling following traumatic brain injury.[citation needed]

 

Safety

MSDS recommends wearing safety glasses because DMSO can cause chronic damage to the eyes.[5] Glove selection is also important when working with DMSO. Thick rubber gloves are recommended, and nitrile gloves, which are very commonly used in chemical laboratories, have been found to dissolve rapidly with exposure to DMSO.[6] Because DMSO easily penetrates the skin, substances dissolved in DMSO may be quickly absorbed. For instance, a solution of sodium cyanide in DMSO can cause cyanide poisoning through skin contact. DMSO by itself has low toxicity.[7] Dimethyl sulfoxide can produce an explosive reaction when exposed to acid chlorides; at a low temperature, this reaction produces the oxidant for Swern oxidation.

 

Recently, it was found that DMSO waste disposal into sewers can cause environmental odor problems in cities: Waste water bacteria transform DMSO under hypoxic (anoxic) conditions into dimethyl sulfide (DMS) that is slightly toxic and has a strong disagreeable odor, similar to rotten cabbage.[8] [end]

 

This will be may last post in this thread.

 

[Jazz+]

That is all irrelevant to me. My doctor initially recommended MSM to me. He is a famous orthopedic hand specialist that treats members of the local symphony. It has worked in my case unlike any other therapy that the doctor has recommended.

 

In 1978, the FDA approved DMSO (MSM) for instillation into the bladder as a treatment for interstitial cystitis. It decreases both bladder inflammation and pain.

[BluesKeys]

I would like to give my FIRST HAND (er right hand) experience with MSM. This is not a clinical test and I am not being paid by the makers to promote this product. Take it at your own risk DH. :smile:

 

As I have stated I have been to the Chiropractor for muscle tension in my right forearm and wrist. I have started an exercise program to strengthen the upper muscles of my forearms. My pain surely comes from playing a double stake of keyboards on stage. Sorry Dave I can't get both boards to the perfect height and I am playing the upper board with my right hand.

 

I took 2000 mg of MSM about 1 hour before I played and went through the whole night (3hrs) without even thinking of my arm or wrist. I packed up and was on my way home before I realised I had no more pain after playing then I had earlier today (before playing). Now was it the exercise or the MSM. It beats me but I am thrilled with the results. I will post again tomorrow and update my status.

 

I would like to thank those on this forum that made me aware of MSM and it's effects on you. I think you can add me to the list of believers.

[Mr. Nightime]

This thread could not have come at a better time. In my day job I spend 8 hours a day over a computer keyboard, and I'm starting to notice some issues with my left hand. I do the stretching excercises several times a day and still feel a bit of pain and numbing in my left hand and wrist. I already take 15Mg of Meloxicam (a prescription NSAID) for my back, so I'm a bit reluctant to add too much more anti-inflammatories. MSM sounds like it might be a good idea.

 

But, I'm with Dave on this. I'm going to check with my doctor and pharmacist before I try it. I don't want there to be any chance that it will interfere with the other meds I take daily.

 

[Steve Nathan]

Before this thread dies, I do want to say a couple of things.

I understand how some folks only trust their doctors, and others don't trust doctors as far as they can throw them. Self directing your own healthcare takes real dedication and work.

Dave Horne and I are old enough to remember when the FDA was staffed with scientists, and given sufficient funding to do the work they were formed to do. Those days are long gone. Today's FDA is filled with Agri-business insiders, pharmaceutical company cronies, and political appointees. The fox is guarding the henhouse, and anyone actually trying to do the job, has no money to work with. Drug company reps tell our doctors that plants that have been on this planet for thousands of years, effectively treating health conditions for generations, are "unsafe" and "untested". For example, the "plant" that I take every day for cholesteral management (Red Yeast Rice) has been used for this purpose ever since scientists noticed that certain populations (for whom this was a part of the local diet), had very low incidences of heart disease. Drug companies noticed the same thing, and today you can have your doctor prescribe from a wide range of drugs called "Statins", all of which were created in the lab by processes that mimic the chemical makeup of (you guessed it) Red Yeast Rice. The drug companies have been lobbying for years to have Red Yeast Rice banned from the market place (in spite of the fact that it is nothing more than "food")and have in fact managed to get the bills through that prevent any bottler of Red Yeast Rice from making "health claims" on their labels. This is the sad state of much of our science in America. Our crops are genetically modified and the seed is "owned" by Monsanto or Archer Daniels Midland. A few wrestlers hoping to build giant muscles, take too much ephedra and OD. Who pushes the FDA to ban it? The makers of prescription asthma medicine (ephedra is from Ma Huang, a Chinese herb that has been effectively treating asthma and breathing disorders for centuries).

 

This has turned into another rant, and I didn't want to go there.

 

What I did want to get across was, if you are interested in alternatives to conventional western medicine, do the research, read the literature. The Medline/PubMed database is a remarkable resourse open to the public. Check reputable websites for any possile interactions between pharmaceuticals and plants. Above all, don't just buy something because you heard about it here or on TV. Find reputable advice. A "real" health food store for example. WholeFoods and WildOats have many knowledgeable supplements people on their staffs.

There are quality supplement companies with years of dedicated service. Please don't just buy whatever they sell at CVS or Wal-mart.

[Jazzwee]

I just wanted to say that my finger joint was really aching a few hours ago. This has been an ongoing problem for 6 months and I have already received a cortisone injection for it to no avail.

 

Early this evening I took 3000mg of Glucosamin/MSM combo. I was suprised by an almost immediate effect and the pain in the joint disappeared. In fact I can hardly feel the tenderness and it was hurting extra badly since last night. I took some Motrin last night but woke up with even more pain. This definitely has something to it.

 

I will report further on any longer term effect of this but as a single dose, I'm pretty surprised.

 

 

 

[Jazz+]

Jazwee,

 

How many mg of MSM was that? I think you are getting an effect from the MSM, not the glucosamine. The Glucosamine over time may supposedly help to rebuild cartilage.

[Jazzwee]

it's equal parts of Glucosamine and MSM.

 

So I actually took 3g of both. They tested up to 6g per day of this for 90 days with no side effects so I believed this was ok. The dosage listed on the bottle was half this.

 

When I first took it, I felt tingling in the joints. The effect has lessened now, about 5 hours later. My goal is just to take it just to give the injury time to heel and see what happens. I don't normally have a long term joint problem.

 

 

[lerber3]

I've had this pain between my fingers for many months now (5-6 months I think) and it doesn't appear to be healing.

 

Weird... I have spaces between my fingers.

 

Do your hands look like mitts? : )

[BluesKeys]

Update.... I played three show over the past 3 days. I took 2000mg of MSM before each show. I got up the next day and took 1000 mg each morning. So that is 3000 mg each day. I noticed the pain I had was reduced and manageable until the last set last night. At that point I started standing up (I usually sit on a short bar stool 30" or so high). I found my hand position felt better standing up then sitting at that point. So I was able to get though 3 shows without cramping up.

 

I woke up this morning (noon) with my forearm rather sore. I ate breakfast and took 1000 mg of MSM and I have NO pain right now. I can't say enough about the effects it has had for me.

 

I did research and I may also add fish oil to this since it seems to add to the effect.

 

Please, (as been stated before) don't start using a product just because you read about it here. Do some research and make smart decisions about what you put into your body.

 

Remember I am only reporting my results and yours may be different. FYI I do not take any prescription drugs at this time and was only taking Naproxen Sodium (Aleve) for pain before.

 

 

[kanker.]

I think something Jim pointed out is very important to remind folks. While I have said that I think MSM did help me, I know what did the bulk of the trick was reevaluating my technique. Jim said he stood, and that that alleviated some of the pain. My guess is that this put his arms back closer to an ideal alignment with the keyboards compared to when he was sitting. I know that I did some adjustments to the height of my keyboards relative to my body to get my arms in a more ideal plane for playing on my bench. One of the problems with playing standing or with your keyboards at a non-piano/organ height i.e. a height that's significantly different than you would have sitting in a normal chair is that if you do actually need to sit or decide to sit for some of the set, finding a stool that keeps your body in the same relative alignment to the keys is difficult at best. This is one of the reasons I've become more of a proponent of a proper sitting position for playing. Even then, when one has one's body in a proper sitting position (body alignment in general should be considered a part of technique if you ask me, and it's easiest to attain sitting), you still have to be very mindful of your hands, arm, and shoulders and how they are interacting with your body and with the keyboard.

[SK]

Standing up playing presents a whole different set of problems. When I've done it, my 'strategy' was to move around some to keep my body muscles loose. But I made a strange discovery about sitting down playing recently:

 

I'd never given any thought to posture when playing - I was only wrapped up in what I was playing. I knew my posture was bad many times, but I ignored it.

 

Then recently I saw over a hundred photos of a gig I'd just played, and I couldn't believe it. Hard to recognize myself, but my posture was perfect - relaxed shoulders, balanced alignment, slight curve in the hands, etc. I'd never even thought about it, but I swear I've never seen myself sitting properly like that before.

 

Which tells me that eventually, from playing piano in demanding ways, your body will seek that center of gravity and correct position for playing. The piano will train you how to sit. If you don't, you won't play as well and you may incur injury. And yes, of course you're a lot better off learning this when you start. I learned the hard way.

[Jazzwee]

Update from my end. I'm been hard on my hands playing 5 hours a day the last couple of days. Yesterday, I had a little pain after playing. Pain disappeared. Woke up with no sign of pain.

 

No change in habits or technique on my end. I haven't done anything other than take MSM and I've actually pounded by hands more. No tenderness in the usual spot near the finger joint.

 

I started getting the pain initially (6 months ago) after a fairly hard stretch between 2nd and 3rd finger. I figured it was a finger sprain, but I'm not sure. MSM is not indicated for sprain so I wasn't sure it was going to work but it has a definite effect.

 

Previously I would take Motrin 800mg per 4 hours. This is a once a day shot. No more meds.

 

Twice the pain came back for a short period and then disappeared (with no activity to start the pain).

 

I'm hoping this will give my finger a chance to heal.