Software B3 clone, please listen, try and post your comments

[ZioGuido]

Hi All,

this is my new upcoming B3 clone plugin, called this time "VB3".

In the last few days I uploaded some audio demos for my friends who are helping me with beta testing, now I'd like to know your comments too. I know there are many B3 owners/players here, so hopefully this could be interesting for somebody.

 

Here is a direct comparison between VB3 and B4, both amplified through a real Leslie cabinet miked with two condensers:

VB3_vs_B4.zip containing 4 files with different sounds (First plays B4, then VB3)

 

This is a comparison of FULLS played sequentially by Viscount DB5, B4 and VB3.

 

This is my attempt at a slow blues :-) with the internal Leslie simulation and a classic setup 888 perc 3rd slow soft on swell and 808 on great with C3 on both manuals.

 

And here you can download the Public Beta n.3, running in demo mode (a 30 seconds nag screen and muted at start-up, then white noise for 3 seconds every 30). Sorry, the readme file is in italian only atm, but I will write a full documentation in english very soon.

 

The main features are as usual for all good clones. VB3 features full polyphony, a virtual 91 tonewheels generator with physically modeled waveforms, no samples, a new Leslie simulation with environmental reflections, tube preamp saturation, spring reverb... everything you need for a complete vintage B3 experience :grin:

 

Please feel free to listen to the audio files and/or try the plugin, then post your comments here. T.I.A.

 

Guido.

 

[kanker.]

I'd love to try it as it sounds great - unfortunately it's Win only.

[ZioGuido]

Beta n.4 is up, same link.

 

Anybody is interested? :-(

[JinVA]

I listened to the Demos, they sounded spectacular. I may Download it soon and try it out, but as reported on the rhodes plugin....my laptop is such a piece of junk I probably won't get a decent recording from it (plus, i'm not that great of a player). somethings wrong with the mic jack and I don't have another interface to record with. so it sounds ok when I play, but when I record it sounds terrible. I'll try and find a way to get around that.

keep it up man. sounds awesome.

-joel

[oscarr111111]

I enjoyed listening to the demos.

[jook]

I'm looking forward to trying this out, but unfortunately my PC is in parts at the moment since I'm in the process of upgrading several components, and it'll be some time before I plug a MIDI keyboard in to mess with.

 

I think the demos sound really good though. The comparison with the B4 emphasizes how good the Percussion is on the VB3.. it's much more cutting and 'plonky' like the real thing I think! The keyclick is also very nice.

 

To my tastes, the demos sound to me like the VB3 has the B4 beat... but I'll wait till I play it I guess!

 

I too am kinda surprised at the lack of responses from other people ... perhaps everyone's too busy playing with the download? I had just assumed there was a larger softsynth user base who'd oughto be all over this ... and I think you guys should check it out. I mostly use hardware and rarely use softsynths, so I'm a little less likely to be able to make great use of this... but otherwise, it's very rare you can give direct feedback to the development of such a quality instrument.

[ZioGuido]

This one is with the internal Rotary speaker sim.:

VB3_b4bd9_190507.mp3, please have a listen and let me know your thoughts.

 

Thanks

[JinVA]

I downloaded and used the demo.....but as with B4, I couldn't get it to sound like it does in your posted mp3s. I'm thinking that i don't know enough about how to tweak hammond settings to make it sound good and, I have terrible hardware. I love the way the MP3s sound, but I can't really replicate it to my taste. As i just said, you can probably chalk that up more to my inexperience with hammonds.

[mate stubb]

 

I too am kinda surprised at the lack of responses from other people ... perhaps everyone's too busy playing with the download? I had just assumed there was a larger softsynth user base who'd oughto be all over this ... and I think you guys should check it out. I mostly use hardware and rarely use softsynths, so I'm a little less likely to be able to make great use of this... but otherwise, it's very rare you can give direct feedback to the development of such a quality instrument.

 

I just cannot seem to motivate myself to jump on trying software instruments. Something about tweaking things on screen makes me hate it. Especially with a Hammond, where the controls are uber important. I have 2 Hammonds and a Nord Stage sitting there fired up at all times, for instant gratification.

[JMcS]

Anybody is interested? :-(

 

I'm no software expert, but it is my understanding that

this (or any software) may be very good "clean" software, but it could also be software with other "stuff" hidden in it. I have no real interest in using my computer as a musical instrument so I have no reason to try it. However, if I did I would want some way of knowing it was safe, and who to go after if it wasn't.

[ZioGuido]

but it is my understanding that

this (or any software) may be very good "clean" software, but it could also be software with other "stuff" hidden in it. [...]

I would want some way of knowing it was safe, and who to go after if it wasn't.

 

Sorry I can't understand these statements... what are you talking about?

This is a software I wrote on my own... What should be "hidden" inside it? A virus? A spyware? Inside a virtual instruments? Are you serious? Please...

 

Ok, now I know that nobody here is interested in software instruments, I won't post anything else. Disregard this thread, thanks.

 

 

[JMcS]

As I said, I'm no software expert. I would not download and install any software that I am not certain I could trust. That means purchasing software from a company that can be contacted and dealt with. I'm only speaking for myself but I did offer my reasoning as one possible reason for why you were not inundated with people desperatly trying to download your software. I wish you well. And yes I meant spyware, code that can copy financial records and passwords and viruses etc.

[dirkpiano]

zioguido, please don't go :-)

 

I tried your demo, and was very impressed... until I switched the leslie sim on tremolo (the weak point of any clone I think). I have a Korg CX-3, and VB-3 doesn't come close (IMHO). It doesn't give me the illusion of moving air, I sometimes had to check if the vibrato i was hearing was coming from the CV or from the leslie sim. Not a good sign.

 

But the pure hammond tone, the percussion, and especially the tube amp sim (way better than CX3) is very realistic and inspiring to play.

 

Other comments:

- the transition from clean sound (no overdrive) to even the least amount of overdrive is too large, I mean, it goes from clean straight to serious growl, unless you lower the swell slider.

- The C/V sounds a bit strange: there seems to be more vibrato in the chorus than in the vibrato itself.

- i don't hear any difference between the 3 TW sets.

- even the highest leakage setting is barely audible to me

 

Finally, don't be discouraged by the lack of reactions here, maybe try your luck on the clonewheel mailinglist (http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/CloneWheel), those people are clonewheel-maniacs (I'm one of them, allthough a silent one:-) . The clonewheel-market is a small one I think, so any newcomer should be welcomed and encouraged.

 

@ JinVA:

If you're trying to get the same sound as the 2 first demos, you'll need a real Leslie. Please re-read that first post carefully.

[kanker.]

As I said, I'm no software expert. I would not download and install any software that I am not certain I could trust. That means purchasing software from a company that can be contacted and dealt with. I'm only speaking for myself but I did offer my reasoning as one possible reason for why you were not inundated with people desperatly trying to download your software. I wish you well. And yes I meant spyware, code that can copy financial records and passwords and viruses etc.

Yeah, that's definitely not the reason the thread didn't get a lot of response. You're just paranoid. Get a Mac. You'll feel better.

 

I think the thread didn't get the attention you wanted ZioGiudo because the title of the thread isn't as descriptive as it could be. I think had you mentioned Organized Trio or Mr. Ray in the thread title, you would have gotten MUCH more attention.

[burningbusch]

I agree with with dirkpiano with regards to the tone, percussion and overdrive as being very reaslistic. The Leslie sim on chorale seems weaker with only the lower drawbars pulled. With full drawbars it seems just fine with me. I prefer the DISTANCE setting on the microphones to be at ~ 10:00 rather than straight up. At straight up with full drawbars, notes in the upper octaves can start to sound a little squirrely. I agree that it would be nice to have a much more gradual overdrive--one that comes in slightly when you have the pedal all the way down and are playing chords.

 

I do like the control of the key click tone. That's very nice. There is something odd with the overdrive. If you play single notes and an 888000000 drawbar setting in the upper octaves, there is am oscillation happening, even with Leslie and C/V off.

 

Overall Guido it's a very competitive emulation. Very well done. It's unfortunate Creamware didn't hire you to do their B3 emulation (as well as some others).

 

Busch.

 

[JinVA]

zioguido, please don't go :-)

 

@ JinVA:

If you're trying to get the same sound as the 2 first demos, you'll need a real Leslie. Please re-read that first post carefully.

 

wow. that would sure explain it. I really should read more carefully. thanks for pointing out my oversight to me.

 

[dnile]

ZioGuido,

 

Great work! I've used your Mr. Ray 73 and Organized Trio plugins before with fantastic results. It's great to see that you're being so active in updating your already brilliant products.

 

I've always been impressed that your emulations can hold their own against much more expensive products put out by large companies, and VB3 sounds to be a very convincing Hammond clone. The only thing I'd ask for is a Mac version, but I realise the complexity involved in developing software on two seperate platforms concurrently.

[bloodsample]

I didn't try the demo but I listened to the mp3s. Pretty cool.

 

I don't know much about the B3 so I can't comment on how well you cloned it. I am curious about the development process however.

 

How did you go about writing this? What language did you write it in? What were some of the challenges faced? Can you talk some more about the development process? Thanks.

 

[JMcS]

As I said, I'm no software expert. I would not download and install any software that I am not certain I could trust. That means purchasing software from a company that can be contacted and dealt with. I'm only speaking for myself but I did offer my reasoning as one possible reason for why you were not inundated with people desperatly trying to download your software. I wish you well. And yes I meant spyware, code that can copy financial records and passwords and viruses etc.

Yeah, that's definitely not the reason the thread didn't get a lot of response. You're just paranoid. Get a Mac. You'll feel better.

 

I think the thread didn't get the attention you wanted ZioGiudo because the title of the thread isn't as descriptive as it could be. I think had you mentioned Organized Trio or Mr. Ray in the thread title, you would have gotten MUCH more attention.

 

As I stated in my first post, I don't use my computer as a musical instrument. So his software was of no interest to me from the get go. His later post seemed to be wondering why there was so little interest. I wrote my thoughts on why there might not have been as much as he hoped for. I have since clicked on the URL for the download. It doesn't take you to a website where you can learn more about him and the software etc. it just brings up the download box. Again, I'm no computer expert, but I do know a little. Isn't just downloading something you can't learn any more about pretty much the same as going to a party where someone you don't know hands you something and says "here take this" and you do? I don't know that pluggins are any less prone to problems than regular programs. Also, when I first read the initial post, I thought he was offering completely new software written by him from the ground up (which could contain any code) not just something to run inside other software. However, since the download box just starts the download, you don't actually know what you are getting. Maybe if that link had taken me to the website where I could have learned more about him and his products (like the one at the bottom of the post) it wouldn't have brought my guard up. I still wouldn't have bothered downloading the software though.

 

I did build a computer to use as a MIDI routing controller and for audio spectrum analysis. That is all it does and it does it problem free.

 

Regarding Mac's, it seems they are not as virus free as many think.

http://www.sophos.com/pressoffice/news/articles/2006/02/macosxleap.html

 

http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.04/04.05/Virus/

[kanker.]

The first 'virus' you speak of never had any success in the wild, and the second one is for a Mac operating system that's at least 6 or 7 years dead - there's a whole new operating system with a whole new foundation to it, OSX. There has yet to be any successful virus for OSX. Why? Because you have to let the virus install itself by authorizing its installation, which is why i put the hash marks around virus in the first sentence. Unzipping a download won't allow it to install anything - you would have to allow it to install anything.

 

In terms of just clicking a link, if it bothers you that much, which is certainly understandable, copy the link, paste it in the URL bar, and delete all of the link after the .com/.net/.org/.whatever to take you to the sites home page. Honestly though, if you are that concerned about security, you probably shouldn't be on the net on a computer you care about.

[Markyboard]

Very nice Guido (if you're still reading). The overall tone has a much less harsh sound to it then B4 II which I am able to A/B it to.

I don't care about the Leslie sim since I have a 147. If I might suggest the output level is low- I have my Cubase mixer channels set pretty close to max and am wishing for more from VB3 itself. B4 is significantly louder. I can say that if this was corrected I would definitely consider purchasing it- it's that good. Also it would be nice if the user could further tweak the percussion volume and sound. But otherwise very nice.

[Mr. Nightime]

This has been a busy weekend, so I just now found this thread. I'll have time to check it out soon. Don't go Guido, I am already a fan of your work.

 

[ZioGuido]

I'll try to answer to some of your postings...

 

I just cannot seem to motivate myself to jump on trying software instruments.

Moe, you were the first to ask to try a beta of MrRay73mk2 when I posted it on this forum, I sent you a copy, then you disappeared. Do you usually behave like this with everybody? But you're not alone... 70% of the people who contacted me did the same thing. Now you're saying you're not interested in software instruments... you changed your mind?

 

- the transition from clean sound (no overdrive) to even the least amount of overdrive is too large, I mean, it goes from clean straight to serious growl, unless you lower the swell slider.

- The C/V sounds a bit strange: there seems to be more vibrato in the chorus than in the vibrato itself.

- i don't hear any difference between the 3 TW sets.

- even the highest leakage setting is barely audible to me

Thank you for testing.

Yes, I'm still working on the rotary sound, and I think I've made a step ahead with my latest improvements.

1. The overdrive is set to give you a much stronger distortion compared to the soft saturation given by the preamp and the rotary effect. It is for rockers!

2. I've increased the C/V modulation a bit, but that's how I like it.

3. Have you read the "ReadMe" file? TW Set 2 and 3 are for a Farfisa simulation, just turn rotary off, set Leakage to none and use the even drawbars (16, 8, 4, 2) with V2 or V3 and you'll hear that transistor sound of the seventies... Practically sets 2 and 3 accentuate the second harmonic, as the waveform are lo-pass filtered triangles instead of sines.

4. Ehm... I think the leakage is too much loud to my tastes

I'm making frequent updates, so if you're interested in following the development have a look at my homepage periodically.

 

That's very nice. There is something odd with the overdrive. If you play single notes and an 888000000 drawbar setting in the upper octaves, there is am oscillation happening, even with Leslie and C/V off.

I think I can fix this... must be a problem with the tuning of the 5th in respect to the foundamental... I have to check, thanks for pointing this out.

 

I don't care about the Leslie sim since I have a 147. If I might suggest the output level is low-

Yes, I should raise the output level a bit, but it could cause digital distortion when playing too much notes with a FULL...

Would you be able to record something with your 147? I have a 415 and it def isn't the same thing...

 

 

 

[Markyboard]

Yes, I should raise the output level a bit, but it could cause digital distortion when playing too much notes with a FULL...

Would you be able to record something with your 147? I have a 415 and it def isn't the same thing...

 

 

 

Hey Guido-

 

Sorry but I'm not able to record my 147 at this time. There would be obviously many variables but like I said the sound quality is fantastic. Other manufacture (Korg with their Legacy collection for example) have put in selectable output (0 dB, +6dB, +12 dB) to accomodate different conditions. This might be a good way to go.

 

Since you seem to be very open to others view points I suggest that you not take it personnaly or "call somebody out" on their decision to use or not use your product. People do change their mind or will stop short of spending money even if they love something. As a potential customer (or not) they do not need to justify their position. Once money is at stake it becomes business and it should be treated as such. Having said that I have to tell you I'm loving this exchange and your willingness to consider and act on our recommendations. I wish you much success and hope to see your products do well. I even hope to be a paying customer - but no guarantees.

 

[mate stubb]

Moe, you were the first to ask to try a beta of MrRay73mk2 when I posted it on this forum, I sent you a copy, then you disappeared. Do you usually behave like this with everybody? But you're not alone... 70% of the people who contacted me did the same thing. Now you're saying you're not interested in software instruments... you changed your mind?

 

I'd say rather that I requested MrRay because I wanted to give software plugins another chance. The reason you never heard back from me is that I found I still don't like them. I couldn't get the tone I was looking for, which is kind of that Jan Hammer dirty compressed sound. It's easy for me to dial up something on my Nord Stage that is satisfying to play.

 

But try as I might (this time included), playing software plugins feels totally disconnected to me. Low latency or no, I just never get the feeling that there is an instrument under my fingers. I could not manage to play it long enough to record anything for you.

 

Since you seemed anxious for replies on your organ plugin, I responded as I did, but I certainly wasn't going to download the organ plugin after confirming to myself that I still don't like them.

 

Sorry if you feel cheated in any way, that was not my intention. I admire your efforts and your generosity, it's just not for me.

[Pat Azzarello]

Anybody is interested? :-(

 

I'm no software expert, but it is my understanding that

this (or any software) may be very good "clean" software, but it could also be software with other "stuff" hidden in it. I have no real interest in using my computer as a musical instrument so I have no reason to try it. However, if I did I would want some way of knowing it was safe, and who to go after if it wasn't.

 

On Windows, there is a concept of "identity signing" code. Signing basically ties the code to the identity of a person through a certificate. Though this does nothing for assuring that it is bug/risk free, it does a lot for knowing that the person providing it is willing to own-up to it. A hacker will not sign their code because, to get the certificate, they must prove they are who they say they are, and spend some money (US$ 500/year IIRC), and then they can be traced.

 

Signing can also be used to make certain that no-one in between tampers with the code, which is also a good thing.

 

Note that signing generally doesn't cause a performance degradation. Generally meaning that if someone did something silly like validate the signature every time a MIDI event was played, it would have an effect, but checking it once on load or first start would probably not manifest itself as significant.

 

BTW - In Windows Vista, 64-bit applications running in kernel mode (that's pretty low level) must be signed. 32-bit operating systems do not require signing.

[Mr. Nightime]

As I said, I'm no software expert. I would not download and install any software that I am not certain I could trust. That means purchasing software from a company that can be contacted and dealt with. I'm only speaking for myself but I did offer my reasoning as one possible reason for why you were not inundated with people desperatly trying to download your software. I wish you well. And yes I meant spyware, code that can copy financial records and passwords and viruses etc.

Yeah, that's definitely not the reason the thread didn't get a lot of response. You're just paranoid. Get a Mac. You'll feel better.

 

I think the thread didn't get the attention you wanted ZioGiudo because the title of the thread isn't as descriptive as it could be. I think had you mentioned Organized Trio or Mr. Ray in the thread title, you would have gotten MUCH more attention.

 

As I stated in my first post, I don't use my computer as a musical instrument. So his software was of no interest to me from the get go. His later post seemed to be wondering why there was so little interest. I wrote my thoughts on why there might not have been as much as he hoped for. I have since clicked on the URL for the download. It doesn't take you to a website where you can learn more about him and the software etc. it just brings up the download box. Again, I'm no computer expert, but I do know a little. Isn't just downloading something you can't learn any more about pretty much the same as going to a party where someone you don't know hands you something and says "here take this" and you do? I don't know that pluggins are any less prone to problems than regular programs. Also, when I first read the initial post, I thought he was offering completely new software written by him from the ground up (which could contain any code) not just something to run inside other software. However, since the download box just starts the download, you don't actually know what you are getting. Maybe if that link had taken me to the website where I could have learned more about him and his products (like the one at the bottom of the post) it wouldn't have brought my guard up. I still wouldn't have bothered downloading the software though.

 

I did build a computer to use as a MIDI routing controller and for audio spectrum analysis. That is all it does and it does it problem free.

 

Regarding Mac's, it seems they are not as virus free as many think.

http://www.sophos.com/pressoffice/news/articles/2006/02/macosxleap.html

 

http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.04/04.05/Virus/

 

Many of us here can vouch for the safety of Guido's work. I am personally a paying customer of his Mr. Ray, Mr, Tramp, & Organized Trio, and love it. If you want to know more, just go to His web site

 

I don't do enough work to warrant being a beta tester, or I would be all over it. I've used Guido's instruments in quite a few projects, and they have been reviewed in the pages of Keyboard. So, I think you can be assured they're safe.

 

[JMcS]

I don't actually care. I won't be using his software because I won't be using my computer as a musical instrument. One of his posts indicated he was disappointed in the response he was getting. I posited the theory that maybe people would not want to download software from someone they didn't know anything about. There was nothing in his original post that explained who he was or what his company was except for a link at the bottom. I don't click on every link on the bottom of every post. I think I am probably not the only one. Instead of throwing a hissy fit about my post, he could have edited the original post, added a description of his company as a reply to my post, explained why downloading it would pose no problems etc. Clicking the link for the download did just that, started the download process. It didn't take the "clicker" to his website to learn more about his product before downloading. Maybe he just assumed everyone already knew who he was. I didn't. And, I didn't click the link until there had been several responses to my original post. Again, I wish him well, however, I have no use for his products as fine as they may be. My sole intention was to give one (of possibly hundreds) of reasons why he wasn't getting the interest he hoped for. Believe me, I'm sorry I did.