GRollins

Somebody mentions Behringer and The Hate Squad shows up. Anybody surprised? Grey

Ah... Something that slipped between the cracks. I had meant to bring this up ages ago and it kept not getting done. Apparently there's a single organ note Morse Code message embedded in Close to the Edge...? I don't remember ever hearing about this before. They don't say specifically where it is, but I went through and listened and think I found it, but it's relatively low level and I'm not able to interpret it. Can anyone find the Morse Code sequence and can you figure out what Wakeman's saying? No, I'm not (yet) saying where I think it is--I don't want to influence anyone's thinking should they decide to go looking. I've got an approximate time stamp where I think it starts. Yes, I tried Googling, but was unable to find an answer, just people saying that they'd heard it was in there. Maybe with a different search string I'd have more luck. I thought I'd toss the idea out to you guys first. Grey

So...now the Moog buyout thread becomes a Behringer-bash thread? Jeez... At least change the title of the thread to more accurately reflect the content. I guess some people just gotta paint the walls with their self-righteous anger, no matter where they go. Count me out. There's enough hysteria and craziness in my world already--don't need more. You guys have fun. Grey P.S.: Might I suggest that those who want to vent about Uli's failings as a human being and Behringer corporate's desire to rule the world start their own, dedicated thread, rather than crapping all over other threads? They could have their own little sandbox where they could rant all they wanted. Just think: An echo chamber where their sermons reverberate from the walls, reinforcing their core beliefs with new conspiracy theories every week. Sound like a plan?

In three-part harmony...this time with feeling: I. Told. You. So. In my Moog One mini-review a couple of years ago, I said it was over. The One was a hollow shell of what it could or should have been and the Moog store was in disarray in many ways. I could feel that something was off. As you may recall, I had a number of people tell me how wrong I was, that the One was a great product, and was selling like hotcakes...blah, blah, blah, woof, woof, woof. I stuck to my guns. Nota bene: I take no pleasure in the loss of Moog. I own four Moog products (if you'll pardon me including my Big Briar theremin in the list) and love them. But...that doesn't make me blind to the fact that the company lost its way. In some alternate universe, someone with deep pockets and a proper understanding of the market--e.g. Roland, Yamaha, Korg...--would buy the company and at least hold the line, if not innovate and move ahead. Sadly, we do not live in that universe. So...five or ten years from now, when the Moog name has been dragged through the mud, we can all take up a collection and buy the remnants for pennies on the dollar and begin the long, slow, painful process of rebuilding the tattered reputation of one of the best synth companies, ever. Thanks. You've been a great audience. Have a safe drive home. Grey

I don't know what the current tour will be like, but I saw Palmer a couple of years ago when he was touring with Yes and Todd Rundgren. There were no keyboards at all. He had a guitarist playing the keyboard parts via some sort of synthesis thing--don't know the particulars. It was unnerving to hear keys when there were no keys. Palmer, for his part, was in fine fettle. Powerful and nearly as fast as in the days of yore. I loved seeing/hearing Palmer again, but found the whole experience disconcerting. Again...I don't know what he's got planned for this go-'round. Grey P.S.: This was the Steve Howe, Alan White version of Yes. White was in a great deal of pain, not doing well at all, only playing part of the songs. Howe's son was filling in when White couldn't manage. I, being me, kept wanting to know what would happen if Palmer were to slide behind the kit and play Yes stuff. No, he didn't. It was just a fantasy of mine. It's still a fantasy of mine. A fusion of Yes and ELP could be quite interesting.

Heavy, steady rain from Idalia, but made the trek to the mailbox anyway. Glad I did...Yes, The Complete Story was in there and I'm not in the mood to test how water tight my mailbox is when faced with a hurricane. This thing's pretty meaty--almost a hundred pages. Many thanks, I'll get on it as soon as I can. (...and thanks again to your wife...) Grey

Your posts boil down to, "You don't get it." -and- "All statements contrary to my point of view are strawman arguments." Not necessarily. I stand by the things I've said and I gather your position is entrenched, so there's little to be gained by hammering the topic further. I'll bow out of this thread. It's just not worth it. The world is full of anger and negativity. If I need a dose, I can find it readily elsewhere. Grey

I find it curious that people assume a mantle of moral superiority regarding Behringer's use of other peoples' circuits. Well, fair enough, I'm all in favor of supporting IP (especially having had some of my stories stolen)...but... Do those same people also condemn other companies with the same vehemence? How about ARP's appropriation of the Moog ladder filter? Surely those people hate ARP, right? "Never buy ARP," they declaim, fist brandished against the sky. "They stole Moog's intellectual property." I suppose that Behringer's 2600 must give them hives...the dreaded 2600, with its stolen ladder filter, in an iteration from the thrice-damned Behringer Corporation, purveyor of stolen ideas. And to top it all off, Behringer had the brazen effrontery to have the filter as a front panel switchable option. Egad! A double dose of righteous indignation! There are several potential reasons for the condemnation of Behringer, but I think it mostly boils down to a certain pile-on mentality. Once a company reaches a certain threshold of haters, it becomes fashionable for others to join the bandwagon and hate them too. There are some valid complaints about Behringer, but if people were intellectually honest they'd have to admit that other companies have done the same or worse. ...or you could just blame it on the ugly logo... Grey

I'm the kind of guy who never wins anything. The one time I did win something, I lost it in one of those Nigerian scams...no, really. I was pretty bummed and felt pretty stupid. Maybe, just maybe, my luck is changing... <he said hopefully, whilst ducking so as to avoid incoming bricks, bombs, and other ouchful items> Many thanks to Old No. 7 and his wife. Grey

I suppose it was inevitable that this would turn into a "hate Behringer" thread. Interestingly, I don't recall a single post answering the OP....maybe I blinked. No, I'm afraid that I don't have any wisdom to impart regarding the 800, however, on the topic of Behringer: For the record, I own a number of Behringer products. Some are more interesting than others, but all offer solid value for what they are and what they cost. I fail to understand those criticizing Behringer for copying synths like the Moog Model D. Moog has offered the Model D as a reissue at intervals, but at a rather high price. Now, as far as I know, they sold all the reissues, so I suppose they understood their market. That said, if I can have the sound of a Model D for a fraction of the price of a Moog reissue, then I'll take it and be glad. Any patents have long since expired, so there's no reason not to. Moog almost completely ignored the Eurorack format, even though it's thriving. It's a complete no-brainer to adapt their older synth modules to Eurorack--something I discussed with employees at the Moog store (they were VERY frustrated that management was ignoring their entreaties to build Eurorack synth modules). Then along comes Behringer, who does the Moog synths at a fraction of the cost and...gets lambasted for their efforts. How dare they?!? Of course, the Model D (along with a bunch of other items) is selling like hotcakes, so I guess Behringer won that argument. It's not like Moog even tried. Of the sundry Behringer products I own, only one has given me trouble. I was a very early adopter of the Model D and my first unit had the firmware glitch that caused some units to hang when updating. They gave me a brand new unit in exchange and were quite pleasant about it, so I offer that as a counterweight to others who might relate horror stories that happened to a friend of a friend of a friend... Bought another D, by the way, used. Most of my units were purchased new (I wait for sales, at which point the bang/buck ratio goes even higher). Some were used. Other than the first D, not a single glitch. If someone: a) Has obtained a schematic of the actual production Behringer Model D through some back channel--or--b) Has reverse engineered the circuit (tedious, but doable--when I was younger I'd have done it for fun, but the damned things are full of SMD parts and my eyes aren't up to the task), then maybe there might be a basis for discussion. All else is chest pounding and trolling. Spare me. There's quite enough noise in the ether these days without that. I'm not saying Behringer is the best brand, ever. I've got some things they've made, but I've got a lot more things that other companies made. The display on one of my Intellijel Plonks is going out. I went to their website to ask if there was anything I could do on this end, but there were endless hoops to jump through. Do you think I should start an Intellijel hate thread? Maybe say how crappy their equipment is because my display is going out? Should I also rake them over the coals because they're not easy to talk to? Yeah, that's the ticket! LET'S ALL HATE INTELLIJEL!!! Right? Sound like a good idea to you? No? Me either. Yet, change the company name to Behringer and watch out, 'cause the shit's gonna fly. As I noted in another thread a little while back, there are people who just want to be mad. I'm growing weary of it. I try to remember to choose a more positive path. Sometimes I fail, but if I manage to get through the day without adding negativity to the world, then I count that as a good thing. Unfortunately, those who want to be mad are addicted to the self-righteous adrenaline rush that they get by lashing out at others. I can't stop them, but I can try in my own way to balance the scales just a tiny bit. Grey P.S.: Personally, I find the Behringer logo (a detached human ear) annoying. I wish they'd choose something a little classier. Oh well, if that's the worst thing I've got to say about the company, things will probably turn out all right in the end. To what extent do you think the hate directed towards the company is influenced by their ugly logo? I'm almost willing to bet that if they had a better logo, people would think better of them.

I think most people here know that I'm a long time Yes supporter. I'd be interested in reading that. Grey

What makes a band prog? I saw Steppenwolf at the Pier in Raleigh, NC, back in the '70s. They had John Kay...and nobody else. All the other instruments were manned by other people. They played all the Steppenwolf hits interspersed with new, original material. The effect was jarring. The new stuff was fusion jazz/prog and completely, totally unlike the old, straight-ahead rock Steppenwolf used to play. Not bad, mind you, but like Hendrix opening for the Monkees--absolute mismatch, even though it was the same band playing both genres. Grey

Not to be alarmist, but have you considered the health implications of RF leakage on your body over time...? It sounds like there's more RF in the area than there should be. I'd stop worrying about your keyboards and start worrying about your frail human protoplasm. Just sayin'. Grey

I'm curious about this "uranium ore." Your basic uranium ore is uraninite, aka pitchblende. Uranium oxide. It's black. Secondary minerals form quite readily (uranium being quite chemically reactive) when surface waters leaching into the ground reach the uraninite and create various hydrates, depending on what other ions might be available in solution: torbernite (copper), autunite (calcium), etc. That's in addition to the basic hydrates, e.g. gummite. The thing to note is that the majority of uranium ores are either black or really vivid colors; bland and boring to look at, uranium minerals are not. So where am I going with this? See any black, red, green, or yellow in the photographs of the vial? Nope, me either. Okay, so that means there's very little uranium ore present. Now...oh, fooey, I'm long-winded enough without going into the details, but my question is this: How long will this thing produce a usable signal in the real world? Anybody still have clocks with radium dials? Can you see the dial in the dark anymore? No? Hmmm... The reason you can't see the hands and numbers on your old clock is that the radium has decayed sufficiently that there's not enough radioactivity to make the material fluoresce the way it did when it was new. The counter argument is that uranium's half-life is much longer than radium's, and that's true, but you're starting with a very small amount of ore, so the signal is weak to begin with. In passing: I'm also thinking that there'll have to be some sort of calibration, due to variations in the amount of ore present in the vials from unit to unit. Not really a problem, just an observation. Anyway, it's a nice stunt, but I'd be reluctant to buy one. I've got enough summers under my belt that I might not live to see the unit become useless, but someone in their twenties should probably plan on replacing the thing at intervals. Grey

I used to work in high end audio. Absolutely loved it (though not the guy I worked for, but that's another story). In that day and time, you could buy a cutting edge, best-of-the-best-of-the-best stereo system for about, let's say, two year's salary for an average guy. Nowadays speakers alone cost two or three years salary. Just the speakers. No, there's not been some crazy advance in space age parts or materials that would cause that sort of inflation. Drivers are still drivers. Transistors are still transistors. Tubes are still tubes. Transformers are still transformers. Yes, their prices have gone up some, just like everything else, but not that much. What happened is that the hi-fi industry got greedy. Really greedy. They've priced themselves out of the market for normal people. The musical instrument industry is in danger of doing the same thing. Deciding how to price products is an inexact art. Do you price an item at $1000 and sell 10,000 of them, or do you price it at $5000 and sell...what? 1000? At some point, you leave ordinary folks behind because they can no longer justify the prices you're asking. Will you still sell units? Yeah, of course. Some. Maybe you sell one to Jordan Rudess. He can write it off as a business expense and more power to him. Most people can't legitimately take that deduction. It comes out of their hip pocket and means there's less money to buy food. Moog has chosen to position themselves on the upper end of the musical instrument price range. They have a name and the reputation to go with it and feel that they have a valid business model. But what if they're wrong? What if they've priced themselves out of the market? And what if their products, e.g. the One, aren't sufficiently awesome to match the asking price. Maybe they sell half as many as they needed to sell to keep the lights on. Then what? Drop the price? That might help move product, but at the risk of riling customers who paid the higher price earlier. Don't just look at today's customers, look at what follows. If you release a new product, some percentage of your potential customer base is going to say, "Nah. Not going to buy one now. I'll wait until they drop the price." If you've got a strong enough business, that can work. If you're on the edge, it's deadly. Moog has a lot of competition now that they didn't used to have. It's imperative for them to have top flight gear at attainable prices if they're going to stay relevant. From my perspective, it looks like they're losing the battle. Grey

The Kurzweil's 2.5A at 15VDC is not the same as the current it draws at 120VAC. You're actually looking at 0.5A or less. There are scads of variables here that I can't control or foresee, like how much wattage you use to play at 'acoustic volume.' Power required to play alongside an acoustic guitar is paltry. The volume to play along with a sax (and drums and...) could be quite a bit louder, depending on how loud the sax is played. Assuming consistent volume, wattage requirements go up by a factor of four for every octave you drop--in other words, bass and the left hand side of your keyboard are going to consume the lion's share of the power. That said, your gear is likely specified at maximum volume. Actual current consumption should be less. A 15A circuit strikes me as marginal. I would suggest at least one 20A circuit, preferably two. Do not assume that two AC outlets are on separate breakers. If they are physically close to one another, they are likely to be on the same breaker. Grey

JazzPiano88, You appear to have missed my point entirely. The Ravenswood/Constellation buyout was simply an example (one of scores we could dissect) of what can happen when a good business (in this case, Ravenswood) is bought by a consortium. The verbiage is always the same: This is the start of a whole new chapter, onwards and upwards, blah, blah, blah. I knew as soon as I saw the press release that Ravenswood was being bought that it was curtains. Sadly, I was right, and the world lost one of the best zinfandel lineups. Now, Moog appears to be following that same path and I don't think it's going to end well. It's not that there's a direct link between wineries and synth makers, it's that there's a very, very long list of companies being bought out and run into the ground. As far as 51% being greater than 49%...er...well, yes. That's kinda my point. The employees had little or no say in the sale because they could be outvoted. Moog has said they're "employee owned" for years, but those two words don't give the percentage. If, as we're being told, the employees' total percentage was only 49%, they could be outvoted, and they may be feeling a little bruised right now. Just speculation on my part. I could be wrong. I wasn't at any meetings. Maybe the employees were enthusiastic about the sale. ksoper, I've long since given up trying to predict the value of things in the future. My first bass was a Danelectro. It was a tawdry little piece of junk that didn't play well, didn't sound good, and looked like crap after I'd played it a couple of years due to the copper flecks in the finish turning green with corrosion. Today they're worth a tidy sum of money. Go figure. Wish I still had it so I could eBay the silly thing. I'm not going to speculate on the value of Moog Ones. There's no telling. One thing's for sure--if I think it'll be worth a fortune and buy one with the intent to sell it at a profit later, the value will fall through the floor. If I think they'll sell for a hundred dollars in the future, then they'll probably be worth a fortune. If I was to venture a guess, I'd say the Model D and maybe Voyager would be better bets, investment-wise...however, having said that, the Grandmother and Matriarch will probably take the lead, right? When the history of Moog is written at some point down the road, I don't expect that the One will be regarded as the pinnacle of their product line. Grey

The more I read, the worse this sounds. If the employees only owned 49% of the shares, they never stood a chance. It sounds to me as though they were forced to sell their shares, possibly against their will. Yes, they get a short term windfall, but being forced into a sell-everything-at-once deal means that taxes will consume a large part of their capital gains. If the employees were wanting to unionize because they were unhappy about the way they were being treated (is there any other reason to unionize?), then this isn't going to improve their lot in life. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a mass exodus beginning...yesterday. The statement from Joe Richardson is no comfort whatsoever. It's a dead ringer for the fatuous flatulence Ravenswood and Constellation put out when they consummated their deal. Lots of optimistic blather about how this is a match made in heaven and so forth. Once you've read one of these merger/acquisition apology letters, you've seen 'em all. Somewhere out there, there's a template that only needs the names of the companies involved filled in. Turn the crank and you have an instant press release. Ah, Moog...we hardly knew yeh! In five years, Moog will be worth about $10,000. I think I'll start saving my pennies. When inMusic gets ready to sell the remains of the company, maybe I'll go talk to them. Grey

A big miss, from my point of view, was when they rejected the Eurorack format. Not that I think that they should have abandoned the larger stand-alone synths, but for them to refuse (I've asked them several times) to even consider Euro was a grave mistake. Now everyone from Doepfer on down has a straight-up copy of their filters, their oscillators, etc. and if Moog were to enter the field, it'd be waaaaay to late and their pricing would be too high for the market. The minions in the Moog store in Asheville were gnashing their teeth when I brought this up with them. The told me they'd been begging the higher-ups to do Euro for forever, but were shut down. Given that Moog has done quite a bit of re-releasing of older designs, I'd think that putting their traditional circuits into a smaller format would be a natural. Don't say it can't be done--it can. Behringer has proved that and at such a price point that they've effectively blocked Moog out of the market. If Moog were to do something innovative they might be able to get a toehold, but I'm not going to hold my breath on that one. I think the Euro ship has sailed. Grey

Remember a couple of years ago when I started a thread wherein I reviewed the One? Didn't care for it. I said then that I feared for Moog's future, although it would take time for them to unravel. Behold...the deterioration is becoming obvious to even the casual observer. People jumped in my shit back then and told me that I was wrong about Moog, that things were going great, etc., etc., et-friggin'-cetera. I stand by what I said then. Moog has lost its mojo. Once upon a time, there was a winery called Ravenswood. Their motto was "No Wimpy Wines." Then, through a chain of circumstance, they sold themselves to Constellation. All the usual blather ensued: "Oh, we're not going to change a thing", "We're just going to give Ravenswood more money and wider distribution", "Trust us..." What happened? Wimpy wines. Ravenswood was completely, utterly destroyed. Constellation then tried to sell the wreckage...well, never mind...the point is that this fits in perfectly with the 'Moog is going downhill' theme that I advanced after spending an afternoon playing the One in Asheville. I'm going to reiterate what I said back then: No, I don't want Moog to fail. I want them to succeed. I own four of their products (if you'll allow me to include my Big Briar theremin) and like them. If, as I fear, they are going down, I'm going to miss them sumpin' awful. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to disregard what I'm seeing with my own two eyes and hearing with my own two ears. The company has lost its way. The One wasn't what it needed to be and when the flagship product doesn't inspire, there's trouble afoot. I hope like hell that I'm wrong... Three to five years. That's what I give them. Tops. When they start coming apart at the seams--products uninspiring and unreliable, nothing innovative or new, all critical company positions manned by mundane people--I'll start another thread, or perhaps revive that older one and say, "I told you so." But I'll be typing those words with tears in my eyes, because they were one of the cornerstones of my musical universe and if they fail, it will shake my world. Grey

The second single from the new album has been released: All Connected Grey

Extraordinary. I've often wished that I could do something similar with the instruments that I own, but the depth of field problem was beyond me. This person has figured it out and not only produced something of utility, but also something of beauty. Grey

A lot of Anderson's responses were pretty loopy, almost as though he was stoned out of his mind: Everything's beautiful. Everything's wonderful. Oh, look at that pretty bird! My favorite dog just died, but it's all cool. I saw him in a dream and he was happy. Sometimes he didn't even address the interviewer's question at all. Amongst all the trippy talk, I got the sense that he's okay with reuniting with Howe, but Howe doesn't want anything to do with him. I don't recall hearing what the problem is...haven't searched to find out. It would be useful to see where Wakeman stands. I think I saw something not too long ago that led me to believe that he's mad at Howe, but I can't remember where I saw it. Again, no particulars, just a generic mad rather than specifics. I feel that Jon Davison does a very good job with the vocals and don't know that--sonically--I much care whether Anderson or Davison does the singing, but I'd love to see Howe and Wakeman together again, doing new music. Downes just doesn't cut it in my book. Will it ever happen? I'm not betting on it. Grey

Okay, now you're just rubbing it in. Grey

TommyRude, I'm jealous. Around these parts it's impossible to see the night sky without driving for an hour or more. My sons think the Milky Way is a theoretical abstraction. I haven't seen it in years, myself, excepting an occasional camping trip. Even on good nights, the sky is never truly black. A song may be as close as some people ever come to seeing a dark sky. Grey