Piano to Organ. What gear, what technique?

[aluk]

I play piano in a rock n roll bar band, and we're starting to play songs that have a bit more organ in them. So far I've managed by faking something unsatisfactorily on my weighted keyboard (Roland FP-30 live, Roland FP-90 at home). I use the VB3 vst on a laptop for organ sounds. I also have a Roland GO-Piano - 61 unweighted keys.

 

I've never played a real Hammond (or even an SK series)

 

Questions :-

1. How close is the GO to an organ keybed? What would I notice?

2. What is the advantage of a proper waterfall keybed, over a normal semi weighted keyed which has a lip over the front edge of the key, and sometimes doesn't have even have fronts or sides to the keys?

3. Any recommended guides/videos for rock organ technique for pianists? In particular, what not to do!

4. I don't want to lug 2 boards around, but I could change out the FP-30 for an 88 (or 7x) key semi-weighted midi controller to get a better compromise between piano and organ. Something as light as possible. Don't need any buttons, sliders, as I use a Behringer X-Touch Mini on top for that. The Nektar LX88+ looked a possibility although too many buttons, or the Studiologic SL73/SL88 although still a hammer action. Possibly the Numa Compact 2? I think I'll try a rehearsal using just the GO and see how that feels.

 

 

Thanks!

 

 

[AnotherScott]

I What is the advantage of a proper waterfall keybed, over a normal semi weighted keyed which has a lip over the front edge of the key, and sometimes doesn't have even have fronts or sides to the keys?

Waterfall allows you to easily slide your palm across the front of the keys, which some players do. I do my glides more on the top, so waterfall isn't an issue for me, and certainly isn't what I consider the most important thing. Early versions of this century's Korg CX3 had a lipped-front key, and overall, I thought that felt like a slightly better action than the true waterfall they switched to. Even real Hammond tonewheel organs didn't all have waterfall keys. OTOH, not having fronts/sides ("diving board" shaped keys), if too extreme (providing minimal surface from the side) can be an issue for me, as even top-surface palm swipes can be problematic.

 

 

[CEB]

With no frame of reference you won"t miss anything not having waterfall keys. The greatest organs in the world have diving board keys. Not all diving boards are equal. Some can cut your hands. It"s also possible to break diving board keys when shirt sleeve gets caught on the keys .... don"t ask. Lol

 

My B3000 or XB3 didn"t have waterfall keys and they were fine. You need to keep smears on top the keys and not be too loose with your technique. Too many rockers play organ too hard they are not velocity sensitive. Rockers need to calm the hell down. Ha ha ha. There are dudes that break keys on B3s.

 

That said I would rather spend a little more and get an organ if I was playing organ. The Numa is setup well. Not so much for the keys but rather than the immediacy of the entire interface. But I"m prejudiced towards hardware over software. I don"t like hooking a bunch of extraneous doo-dads.

 

[cphollis]

Well, I can tell you how it works for me. I'm primarily an AP player, but also love EP, clav, harpsichord, etc. Mostly weighted actions. I have the most fun when I'm doing my AP/EP thing.

 

Six or so years ago, I hooked up with an Americana band that demanded soulful B3 sounds. And then there was this pop band where there were distinct bendy synth leads. And so on and so forth. I think maybe you'll gravitate to two boards over time, so maybe plan for it?

 

Trying to do it all on a single board generally sucks, in my humble opinion. As a result, I always play with something weighted below, and something unweighted above. There are people who can do organ/synth stuff on weighted keybeds, and those that can do serious AP work on unweighted boards. I am not one of those people.

 

So, two boards for me. My current "master" board is a Nord Stage Compact 3 (unweighted) and I use an ancient Nord Piano 2 as a weighted controller down below. The master board is a single control surface for both, which keeps things manageable. A pair of stereo outputs, no external effects. The Neo Vent is sitting in storage, unused.

 

As far as the debate between different unweighted keybed styles, I'm a non-participant. I can do crazy B3 stuff on the NS3C, as well as synth, etc.

 

I'd encourage you to embrace the B3 material. It's a huge add to any keyboardist's arsenal.

 

 

 

 

[stoken6]

Your biggest limitation will be no expression pedal. It's as intrinsic to organ as the sustain pedal is to piano - in fact more so.

 

The Go:piano has USB MIDI, I think? Give that a go, and get yourself an expression pedal (something like this perhaps: http://www.eowave.com/interactive-instruments/usb-pedal/?) to go with your VB3/laptop.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AnotherScott]

Other solutions to the pedal problem...

 

https://beatbars.com/en/expression-to-midi.html - free shipping within the EU so you'd better hurry ;-)

 

https://www.audiofront.net/MIDIExpression.php - in the U.S., ships free anywhere, don't know about import duties

 

That said, depending on the style/repertoire, pedal may not be so essential.

 

 

 

 

[aluk]

Thanks for the replies.

 

I do have an expression pedal connected up to VB3 via a MIDI Expression, although I don't really know what to do with it and when, which comes back to my technique question! Feels like learning to drive (manual/stickshift) 25 years back, suddenly realise I should have done something with the clutch pedal 2 seconds ago!

 

I think you're all saying the GO:Piano is perfectly good enough, which means I have everything I need for now already. USB midi works fine. I can even stack it above the FP-30 using my current stand, or just use it instead of the FP-30 and see if I can make do with it for AP as well. I have tried top palm smears on it, which were much easier than on the FP-30.

 

I also have a cheap 9 slider MIDI control surface, so I can connect that up to the drawbars.

 

I have no excuses left! :-)

[AnotherScott]

I do have an expression pedal connected up to VB3 via a MIDI Expression, although I don't really know what to do with it and when, which comes back to my technique question!

In rock playing, it's usually pretty much just about controlling volume/overdrive. But here's an example of it being used more expressively... you can see her foot work on much of this video...

 

[video:youtube]

 

[TommyRude]

Thanks for posting this great vintage clip AnotherScott, very enjoyable

[drawback]

I don't want to lug 2 boards around, but I could change out the FP-30 for an 88 (or 7x) key semi-weighted midi controller to get a better compromise between piano and organ. Something as light as possible. Don't need any buttons, sliders, as I use a Behringer X-Touch Mini on top for that. The Nektar LX88+ looked a possibility although too many buttons, or the Studiologic SL73/SL88 although still a hammer action. Possibly the Numa Compact 2? I think I'll try a rehearsal using just the GO and see how that feels.

 

Given the last comment about trying the GO at rehearsal is the cheapest and most practical for right now, I"d say that"s a pretty good call.

 

But the earlier part of this statement makes me wonder if you should look at something like an Electro 73. One lightweight board that has great sounds, that you can play piano on a semi-weighted rather than trying to make organ work from a hammer action.

 

[Delaware Dave]

3. Any recommended guides/videos for rock organ technique for pianists? In particular, what not to do!

 

Go to youtube.com, in search type in 'hammond organ technique'. you'll get all the help you need from those videos....

[Outkaster]

Rhoda Scott is wicked. Great phrasing, choice of notes and everything. Another example of why Gospel Organ trumps everything.

[BbAltered]

[quote=cphollis

 

The Neo Vent is sitting in storage, unused.

 

/quote]

 

Can I have your Neo Vent? (OK, it's snark. But if you are not using it, and wanted to be free of having to have it in storage, and wanted to see it get used, I nominate myself to be the guy to take it off your hands. )

 

[Mr. Nightime]

My current Hammond solution, an SK-2 has waterfall keys. But for many years I used an XB-2 that had diving board keys, so my smear technique was developed for on top of the keys. I still use that technique.

Yes, there is a bit of a feel difference between the to, but not enough to make one more expressive than the other.

 

But, the deal changer was if I had to play organ on weighted keys - just does not feel right. I would find myself reverting to piano technique instead of organ technique. Certain feels just lend themselves to certain playing techniques. For instance, it's very difficult to play a real Clavinet, and NOT get funky.

 

As far as the expression pedal, remember that by definition, organ is NOT velocity sensitive, so any volume/tonal variations during a passage are conveyed using the pedal

 

And remember, the Leslie is another tool for the overall expressiveness. I've heard a lot of less experienced players that will just kick the Leslie to fast, and leave it there. Play with it. Use the speed changes to your advantage.

 

I personally like to have a dedicated organ on stage. I'm in 2 bands. One of them is more piano oriented, but with plenty of organ needed. For that I'll bring both. The other I'll play organ 90% of the time, so the AP in the SK-2 works, and I'll leave the Yamaha at home

 

 

[aluk]

Thanks all, doing some reading, watching, listening and playing now...

[uhoh7]

The expression pedal can't be overstated. An organ without one is like a piano with harpsichord action.

 

When I picked up the RT3 from my brother, I did not even understand it's function. Hmmmm, how do I control volume?

 

Play a piano without sustain, it's good for you. Play a Organ without expression pedal, it soon grows old---to me anyway.

 

The Hammond is a large instrument, capable of overpowering any sinner, yet it can play the whole range of harmonics at a whisper. While the piano can change volume of every note independantly, the Hammond's overall dynamic range is far greater. That's one reason it's so fantastic for comping, and so versatile.

 

A real tonewheel organ, as many know way better than me, not only has the volume pedal, it has a "soft button". You hit that and the pedal will take you down to silence. You really can play a B3 in the middle of the night and not wake anyone--without headphones.

 

The Leslies seem to love those softest of sounds....which are kind of a sweet contrast to the clackety clack of spinning stuff that you hear in a quiet room with a leslie running, between notes.

 

So you have huge contrasts in volume, the contrast of Leslie on and off---which is why the leslie emulation has to be decent, and then contrasts of the voices---you gotta have live drawbars and either a split or two boards to really have the richness, and also be able to turn the percussion on and off. With those simple ingedients, you are cooking with gas

 

Joe Glossup "Play authentic Hammond Organ"

 

That is worth the money, and goes over most of the other "special effects", and he discusses various clonewheels in several segments and how to get them sounding more real. After explaining what to use and what to avoid on the 5D, he says: "Very clever, but limited." The biggest weakness of the Nord, for Joe, is the full drawbar sound, which he feels is way more thin and "digital" than a real clonewheel. He does not mind the leslie, by comparison.

 

[video:youtube]

 

The C2D is nice above, but way thin to my ears at times, despite Gibson's incredible chops. Numa 2CX is also often thin. Even the B3s in Logic sound more real, and especially, more rich.