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Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? #2989775 05/15/19 10:05 PM
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I played one today and I'm impressed. Quick key return but it just felt right.

Anyone know what kind of keybed is in the Montage 8?

Thanks!


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Imagine] #2989777 05/15/19 10:26 PM
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https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_production/synthesizers/montage/specs.html#product-tabs

I vaguely recall Yamaha makes their own key bed for the Montage

Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: GregC] #2989784 05/15/19 11:50 PM
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Yes, it's called the BH or Balanced Hammer keybed. Same as in my Motif XF8. Great in my opinion, works well for almost anything. Except perhaps for fast organ glisses.


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Mighty Motif Max] #2989789 05/16/19 12:27 AM
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No clonkers? You guys are getting soft smile

It doesn’t work well for synth playing imo. Jmo, everyone varies.


The baiting I do is purely for entertainment value. Please feel free to ignore it.
Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: MotiDave] #2989791 05/16/19 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted By: MotiDave
No clonkers? You guys are getting soft smile

It doesn’t work well for synth playing imo. Jmo, everyone varies.


I've never been the clonk type unless I know where to find a thread. smile

I agree that for synth leads it can be a little heavy. That's where my Krome comes in via midi, for anything not meant for a hammer action. Pads and comp sounds etc are fine on that keybed in my opinion. Of course, Mr. Rudess plays his stuff on a hammer-action Rh3 Kronos, so...


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Mighty Motif Max] #2989792 05/16/19 01:07 AM
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Thanks for the info on the keybed. I have a Kawai MP11SE and I think it's great for piano, but the Montage has a faster key return which is great for percussion.

Does Yamaha make another keyboard using the Balanced Hammer keybed without the internal sounds?


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Imagine] #2989797 05/16/19 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted By: Imagine
Thanks for the info on the keybed. I have a Kawai MP11SE and I think it's great for piano, but the Montage has a faster key return which is great for percussion.

Does Yamaha make another keyboard using the Balanced Hammer keybed without the internal sounds?


The CP73 has Balanced Hammer but has 73 keys and internal sounds.


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: drawback] #2989808 05/16/19 08:34 AM
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Thanks, drawback but I need an 88.


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Imagine] #2989812 05/16/19 09:03 AM
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Anyone know if the keybed in the NI S88 MKII is similar to the Montage 8?


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Imagine] #2989813 05/16/19 09:04 AM
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Just curious why would someone buy something with a weighted action for synth leads anyway?


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: drawback] #2989814 05/16/19 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted By: drawback
The CP73 has Balanced Hammer but has 73 keys and internal sounds.

Although they are both balanced rather than graded, the CP73 action (BHS) is not identical to the Montage 8 (BHE).

But getting back to the OP, if you want an 88-key hammer action that feels quick, check out the Kurzweil 88s that use the TP40 action... Forte (not SE), or in older models, any of the 88s whose model name starts with PC3. (And they also happen to be balanced rather than graded.) If you want the Montage 8 BHE action in particular, and are willing to look at used stuff, I believe you'll find it it all of the 88-key Motifs and S90 models.


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: AnotherScott] #2989835 05/16/19 12:25 PM
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What is the difference between balanced and graded?


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Charleston] #2989836 05/16/19 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: Charleston
What is the difference between balanced and graded?


I don’t know, but I’ve just learned there are 13 hairs split between E and S..

laugh


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Charleston] #2989838 05/16/19 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: Charleston
What is the difference between balanced and graded?

Graded actions feel heavier as you go to the left and lighter as you go to the right (as they do on an acoustic piano). Balanced actions feel the same throughout.


Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!
Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: AnotherScott] #2989843 05/16/19 01:22 PM
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Just came across this list of actions used in many keyboards. It doesn't show the Montage, but many other Yamaha actions with the BHE keybed.

Looks like you're a studio user if you've got a Kawai MP11SE! I find it curious that on that list the Yamaha MO8 is using the GHE as well. The Montage, the S90, the Motif XF8 are all boat anchors, all over 60 pounds and quite expensive, and yet the Yamaha MO8 uses the BHE and only weighs 46 pounds and was under $2,000 new.

AFAIK, knowing the name of an action is a starting point. Apparently there's mods done to most keybeds by the manufacturer, and it's unlikely that all BHE actions are identical. Actually, I'm thinking mostly of Korg here with their RH3 keybed, but I believe this to be a nearly universal principle.

Why not a keyboard with good pads or just a pad controller for your percussion sounds? One keyboard that I can recommend with good pads is the Casio MZ-X500, I liked the feel of the 16 pads and could get good dynamics with it. It's quite advanced for its use of pads, you can trigger all manner of things from them.

Also, as per AS suggestion, the Studiologic SL88 sounds like a good TP40 board.

Last edited by Randelph; 05/16/19 01:50 PM. Reason: additional thoughts

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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Randelph] #2989871 05/16/19 03:49 PM
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Hey guys, thanks for the info. I appreciate it.

AnotherScott, funny you should mention Kurzweil and S90. I had a PC88 many years ago and a S90 that lasted about 10 years. Both keyboards stopped working at one point and for some reason could not be fixed.

I decided to try the original NI S88 MKI, but I didn't like the keybed. There are a lot of keybeds on the market with this bouncy/rubbery feel to them. Returned it and got a VPC1, which I enjoyed playing piano on, but not the greatest for anything else. Sold that and got the MP11SE which is slightly less key heavy and I enjoy playing that, but yesterday when I tried the Montage, it took me back to the S90-PC88 days. I would have bought it open the spot, but I really don't want to spend $4K on a keybed.

I was wondering if the NI S88 MKII has a better keybed than the original.

Randelph, thanks for the list. I tried various pads over the years starting with the original Akai MPC back in the day. I even tried a few other pads last year, but I really don't want to go back to that again. I like having all my sounds on the keyboard. Both my VEPro templates have been organized for easy access.

Is the TP40 close to a BHE?


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Imagine] #2989877 05/16/19 04:20 PM
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Another hammer action board to consider with a lighter than average feel would be the Kawai MP7. I'm not sure about the later MP7SE.

A version of the TP40 is also in the Studiologic SL88 Grand, though it's not as light a version as what Kurzweil uses. Still it might be worth checking out.


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: AnotherScott] #2989879 05/16/19 04:37 PM
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Thanks, Scott. I'll look into those.

Do you know what the E in BHE stands for?

Last edited by Imagine; 05/16/19 04:45 PM.

Dean
Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Imagine] #2989890 05/16/19 05:46 PM
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BHE= Balanced Hammer Effect


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Randelph] #2989892 05/16/19 05:51 PM
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Thanks, Randelph. Do you know if the TP40 is similar to the BHE?

I may be interested in a Doepfer LMK4+.

Also, would you know if there's a newer updated keybed in the NI S88 MKII? I never liked the original, but did like the concept. Thanks again.


Dean
Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: AnotherScott] #2989898 05/16/19 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: drawback
The CP73 has Balanced Hammer but has 73 keys and internal sounds.

Although they are both balanced rather than graded, the CP73 action (BHS) is not identical to the Montage 8 (BHE).

But getting back to the OP, if you want an 88-key hammer action that feels quick, check out the Kurzweil 88s that use the TP40 action... Forte (not SE), or in older models, any of the 88s whose model name starts with PC3. (And they also happen to be balanced rather than graded.) If you want the Montage 8 BHE action in particular, and are willing to look at used stuff, I believe you'll find it it all of the 88-key Motifs and S90 models.


Scott, you mentioned checking out the Kurzweil Forte, but not the SE version. Yet, according to the list, both have the Fatar TP/40L.

Forte (88): Fatar TP/40L
Forte SE (88): Fatar TP/40L

Were you referring to something else?

Thanks!


Dean
Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Imagine] #2989899 05/16/19 06:43 PM
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Scott, never mind. Just found it. The Forte SE has a Fatar TP/100LR.


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Imagine] #2989919 05/16/19 10:13 PM
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My favorite hammer action of any keyboard anywhere is the one on the Kawai ES8. Fairly close to the Motif Balanced Hammer one. Nice and smooth, plus quick.

The reason I don't have one is that it's far too limited for my purposes/price.


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Mighty Motif Max] #2989937 05/17/19 12:58 AM
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You guys know if the Fatar TP/40GH is much heavier than the TP/40L?

I'm thinking about getting the Doepfer LMK4+, but wondering what the difference between it and the Montage 8 might be in terms of keybeds?

Thanks!


Dean
Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Imagine] #2989970 05/17/19 10:17 AM
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I'd just go with the Montage 8, if I were you!

It’s a great, powerful machine well worth the money with a great keybed that sounds perfect for your application.
And, despite “conventional wisdom” you can play synth leads just fine on it. the trick is to use organ technique—-just press the keys to the trigger point and no further.
Don’t cut corners, just get it once....

Last edited by jimkost2002; 05/17/19 10:25 AM.

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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: jimkost2002] #2990053 05/17/19 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
I'd just go with the Montage 8, if I were you!


As said, there are quite a lot formidable 88 keys that function well as a masterkeyboard..

Montage 8
Kronos
Forte

Are on top of my list..

And if you can live witouth aftertouch, but want superb piano action,
I would add the Roland RD2000 to that list..

And there is a much longer list that qualifies in some Extend but all miss aftertouch
(Modx, fa08, kawai mp7/11,etc etc etc)

If you want a super 88 masterkey, and definately want no sounds, look at the Physis EX4 i believe, it even has aftertouch and anice triplesensor action with real wooden keys).

Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: KorgyPorky] #2990071 05/17/19 04:08 PM
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Guys, I think you're right. The Montage 8 is the way to go.

As I mentioned above, I have a Kawai MP11SE with wooden keys and I love it for piano, but that's about as far as it goes.

I'll be going back today to negotiate. Thanks again!


Dean
Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: KorgyPorky] #2990075 05/17/19 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: KorgyPorky
Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
I'd just go with the Montage 8, if I were you!


As said, there are quite a lot formidable 88 keys that function well as a masterkeyboard..

I think you confused this thread with the "88-key Midi Controllers" thread. The goal here wasn't to find a controller per se, but to find a (hopefully less expensive) keyboard that felt like the Montage 8.


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: KorgyPorky] #2990093 05/17/19 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: KorgyPorky
Originally Posted By: jimkost2002
I'd just go with the Montage 8, if I were you!


As said, there are quite a lot formidable 88 keys that function well as a masterkeyboard..

Montage 8
Kronos
Forte

Are on top of my list..

And if you can live witouth aftertouch, but want superb piano action,
I would add the Roland RD2000 to that list..

And there is a much longer list that qualifies in some Extend but all miss aftertouch
(Modx, fa08, kawai mp7/11,etc etc etc)

If you want a super 88 masterkey, and definately want no sounds, look at the Physis EX4 i believe, it even has aftertouch and anice triplesensor action with real wooden keys).


Kronos is good, too!
That would be my second choice.....
Actually, Forte is a distant third.....
VAST is powerful and super deep, and the TP40 is a great action, but, I’ve never connected with Kurz native patches.....
RD 2000 is oneof the best actions and EPs are phenomenal, but everything else is meh


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Imagine] #2990094 05/17/19 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: Imagine
Guys, I think you're right. The Montage 8 is the way to go.

As I mentioned above, I have a Kawai MP11SE with wooden keys and I love it for piano, but that's about as far as it goes.

I'll be going back today to negotiate. Thanks again!


Great to hear it Dean! let us know how it goes


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: jimkost2002] #2990170 05/18/19 05:36 PM
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I took out the S90 from storage and the keybed from it and the Montage are completely different. I decided not to get the Montage for the time being.

According to Yamaha support, the keybed in the Montage is not the BHE but GHS keybed. I was surprised he said that.

I decided to not get a keyboard with all the frills. I need a controller, so I'm going to try the Doepfer LMK4+ and SL88 Grand.


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Imagine] #2990171 05/18/19 05:53 PM
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I have a Motif XS8. Supposedly the Montage 8 has the same keybed but it sure felt different when I tried it at Guitar Center.

Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Imagine] #2990174 05/18/19 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: Imagine
According to Yamaha support, the keybed in the Montage is not the BHE but GHS keybed. I was surprised he said that.

Specs say BHE.

https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/music_production/synthesizers/montage/specs.html

I can't imagine it being 64 lbs with a GHS.


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: AnotherScott] #2990308 05/20/19 12:16 AM
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The S90 and Montage feel completely different and I tried 2 Montage keyboards just in case one wasn't functioning correctly.

If there's a BHE in the Montage, it's a completely new BHE.


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Imagine] #2990763 05/22/19 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: Imagine
The S90 and Montage feel completely different and I tried 2 Montage keyboards just in case one wasn't functioning correctly.

If there's a BHE in the Montage, it's a completely new BHE.

There have been similar conversations about GHS, not feeling identical from board-to-board. Design tweaks over time? Different feel based on the chassis it is mounted to? Even unit-to-unit manufacturing variation? Who knows?


Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!
Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: AnotherScott] #2990768 05/22/19 09:49 PM
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China?

Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: AnotherScott] #2990771 05/22/19 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: Imagine
According to Yamaha support, the keybed in the Montage is not the BHE but GHS keybed. I was surprised he said that.

Specs say BHE.

https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/music_production/synthesizers/montage/specs.html

I can't imagine it being 64 lbs with a GHS.


Not sure what he was smoking, but there is no way that the Montage is Graded Hammer Standard (GHS). If it was, I very well may have gotten a much lighter MOXF8 instead of my 64lb Motif XF8. Have you had an opportunity to play both MOXF8 or MODX8 and the Montage 8? It's like the difference between a Chevy Cruz and a Rolls Royce. GHS is functional and is fine for a lot of people, but the BH/BHE is premium. No comparison, no similarity at all except for both being 88 keys except in the CP73.

No way. Try to find a MODX8 or MOXF8 to play, or even a P125. That's GHS.


On a side note, I played a little on an old S90 at a Music Go Round late last year. I can tell you that the BHE in that model is definitely a little different than the current BHE (Motif XF8, Montage). I prefer the Motif one personally. idk


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Mighty Motif Max] #2990812 05/23/19 05:41 AM
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I got in touch with Yamaha again and this time they said: "It is a BH. Even though it's BH, design may be different. Which, in turn, may affect the way it feels."

At this point, who knows.


Dean
Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Imagine] #2990817 05/23/19 07:58 AM
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If anyone knows a tech at a Yamaha repair shop, it would be interesting to know whether the replacement keys for a Montage 8, Motif XF8, and S90 have the same part number. Same with GHS models like MODX8, DGX660, etc.


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: AnotherScott] #2990897 05/23/19 02:37 PM
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Mighty Motif Max Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
If anyone knows a tech at a Yamaha repair shop, it would be interesting to know whether the replacement keys for a Montage 8, Motif XF8, and S90 have the same part number. Same with GHS models like MODX8, DGX660, etc.


Indeed.


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Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: AnotherScott] #2990977 05/23/19 10:44 PM
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Good idea thu

Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: AnotherScott] #2990990 05/24/19 12:45 AM
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Imagine Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
If anyone knows a tech at a Yamaha repair shop, it would be interesting to know whether the replacement keys for a Montage 8, Motif XF8, and S90 have the same part number. Same with GHS models like MODX8, DGX660, etc.


I agree, but I don't think anyone will release that info. Especially not a tech at Yamaha.


Dean
Re: Yamaha Montage 8 keybed...anyone know? [Re: Imagine] #2991026 05/24/19 10:11 AM
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Hi --

Part numbers are listed in the Yamaha service manual for each instrument. In the USA, service manuals may be purchased from Yamaha 24x7, their on-line portal for parts.

The main issue is gathering together service manuals for all of the relevant keyboards! The service manuals are not especially cheap even though Yamaha distribute them as PDF files. If someone undertakes this task, please note that the 88 key "piano action" models have a separate manual from the 61/76 models with the FSX key bed.

Do you want to compare part numbers for the individual keys or the entire keyboard assembly? There are separate numbers for all.

Hope this helps -- pj (a service manual diver)

Music technology blog: http://sandsoftwaresound.net/

Last edited by pjd; 05/24/19 10:12 AM.
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