Mainstage really paying off!

[Reezekeys]

You miss the point, in a Kronos the AP or Hammond emulation is always going to sound like that Korg engine. In MainStage or any host for that matter, it will sound like your AP of choice, be it Pianoteq or Ravenscroft or any of the other 30 or so AP's on the market. Same with Hammond, your choice of B-5, or VB3 wrapped in 32 Lives, Blue 3 or several others. Plus 30 or more EP's and 100's of synths.

And later on, as other VIs are developed, or the ones you have are updated or improved in some way, it's easy to add them to your setup. Updates for hardware keyboards happen sometimes, but you're at the mercy of the manufacturer there.

 

I think we go in circles with this debate. It can't really be settled, it's just a matter of personal choice. Someone should do a sticky with a "pros" and "cons" column for these two different gigging methodologies. Yes, I said "gigging methodologies!"

[David R]

I've been a MainStage convert since 2010. Playing in multiple bands, it's proven much easier to manage files and patches on a computer; I much prefer editing & programming on a laptop screen than menu-diving or tapping around on a touchscreen; the plug-and-play availability of my sounds (give me anything that sends MIDI out and I'm good); and as Reezekeys mentioned, the ease of upgrading/updating sounds as new instruments/effects come out.

 

I really like the Kronos & the Motif and I've often thought about ditching the laptop and going back to hardware - a friend in town has a Nord Stage 2/Montage 6 rig that sounds unbelievably good - but I've just invested so much time into Mainstage that I don't particularly want to have to reprogram everything in hardware.

[MotiDave]

Having used Mainstage exclusively on gigs now, I find the load in and setup no more "complicated" than using a purely hardware setup.

 

In fact, I find it easier. I have always had a rack with a mixer in it, as well as my in-ear wireless system.

 

Now I have a rack with my audio i/o and wireless in -ear system. The audio i/o is also a good mixer.

 

I show up, unfold keyboard stand, place my 88 and 61 boards on stand, run 1 usb cable from each to the rack, open my laptop and turn it on, and I'm ready to go.

 

No different than running my audio cables from 2 boards to rack mixer, and midi din cables between keys.

 

Again, no knock on Kronos at all. I think it's an awesome board.

 

My current rig's boards are very lightweight, and that's a factor for me now, as well.

 

Added benefit, I have now done a couple fly-in gigs. Each of my mainstage concerts actually have 2 concerts, 1 is designed around my "local" rig personal boards, and it's duplicate is designed with generic boards. That way, I don't worry too much about backline other than making sure each board they provide has USB MIDI.

I also have a Korg Nano Kontrol I use for knobs and sliders so I am not worried about not having a 61 note board with knobs and sliders.

 

So my travel rig consists of my backpack with MBP, Focusrite 2i2, and Nano Kontrol in it. Oh yeah, some USB cable too.

I show up at venue, keys are already setup. I just plug them not my laptop, and I'm ready.

 

 

Since Kronos is my only sound source, I don't need any kind of rack or mixer. Midi from controller to Kronos, audio to DI.

 

Now the fly-in gigs make the most sense of any argument I've heard. I'm not doing any of those, but if I was, that in and of itself would probably be reason enough to consider a main stage rig instead.

i tried to get up and running on MS for a fly-in gig, i can program splits, layers, songs, library etc no prob - but i couldnt get exact signature sounds for the tribute (Bon Jovi) i was doing it for - just didnt get how to design sounds and didnt get time to learn it. I got a 61 key baby version of the XF id already programmed with that i could just port the library id spent so much time designing.

 

Since - still never bothered to find time to learn how to design sounds in MS. I wish I would / could - id Love to just bring a laptop and midi box on fly ins.

 

But the ease to switch from band a to b to c - thats zero issue in my hardware world either. I have a library for Bon Jovi, Cars, Bowie, UFO, and general purpose covers. Easy as pie to prep for a gig with saved files. First off, they all fit in either board i own as is - organized in different banks. all i do to prep is re-order whichever bank im using that night to the exact set list order. Poof.

 

i suspect escape has better quality sounds than me.

[KorgyPorky]

I'd argue you're not missing a lot, aside from the points Sven makes below. As someone about to get a Kronos I'm hoping it will largely replace the need for MainStage although I do trigger some audio files etc prior to some songs but I'm guessing Kronos can handle that as well.

 

The screen real estate is a good point from Sven though

 

As a purely hardware guy, it doesn't seem like for most gigs that the added complexity of going with something like main stage and a laptop would equal the benefit. Bear with me for a moment. All of the things you mentioned being able to do pulling from one performance to another, etc is all very easy to do in my Kronos. I save setlists for different bands. If one band wants to do a song that I did with another band, I just go to the other setlist, copy that slot, go to the current setlist, insert, done. If I'm putting together a new combination and remember I used a similar patch in another one, just look at that one, pull up that patch in the new one, copy effects, done. And the nice thing is I don't have to worry about routing things between different software and hardware instruments and mixing signals and running cables and interface to a laptop and all that. I don't even have to know what patch change to send to select a song....I touch the square on the screen with the song name.

I get if people want to use a bunch of software instruments and sample libraries, but for most live cover gigs, I question if they're really necessary or if it's more a matter of "want" vs "need". For instance, pianoteq is surely better than the Kronos pianos. But by the time it goes through FOH mixed in a live setting through PA speakers and room acoustics and crowd noise, does anybody know the difference? I haven't yet encountered any sound I can't get in the Kronos. Maybe some software instrument may have a slightly better sounding organ or piano or string, but again, in a live setting, it doesn't seem like it would be better enough to justify the headache of dealing with a laptop, interconnection, and setup of the whole rig vs doing it all in one box.

Then I also hear folks wanting hardware boards to run maintain for redundancy so they have backup sounds. This always cracks me up because it implies the assumption that if something breaks down, it's going to be main stage. Because if the keyboard breaks down, you not only lose those sounds, but you lose the ability to run main stage as well.

 

What am I missing?

 

Actually my Kronos 88 makes the perfect mainstage comtroller

Allows me to have both in a single setup..

Choosing the EXT section in my controlls gives me everything a mainstage comtroller would ever need..

 

I dont undertand why to either go software or hardware.. software makes the perfect expansion for hardware...

 

Oh and this 39 program is the main reason for me to spend 3500 on a mac instead of 1500 on a windows laptop..

[Markay]

Since - still never bothered to find time to learn how to design sounds in MS.

 

MainStage is a host for Virutal Instruments and Effects. So what you mean is you didn't learn how to use Virtual Instruments and Effects.

 

Hardware or software you have to learn how to use the User Interface to get what you want out of it. I don't think the challenge of learning how to use these would be any different to getting the sound you want out of one of the Kronos VI's or "engines".

[Al Quinn]

I dont undertand why to either go software or hardware.. software makes the perfect expansion for hardware...

I find your approach interesting. I could be wrong, but I think it suggests that you prefer some software sounds over hardware and visa-versa. Can you elaborate on which sounds you prefer from hardware and which from software? For example, is your preferred AP software or hardware? Is your preferred B3 software or hardware? etc.

[MotiDave]

Since - still never bothered to find time to learn how to design sounds in MS.

 

MainStage is a host for Virutal Instruments and Effects. So what you mean is you didn't learn how to use Virtual Instruments and Effects.

 

Hardware or software you have to learn how to use the User Interface to get what you want out of it. I don't think the challenge of learning how to use these would be any different to getting the sound you want out of one of the Kronos VI's or "engines".

 

Yes, exactly, plus a bit more. The dropping sounds into set lists and making splits and layers etc, that part is easy. But i dont understand the different VI sound sources, how each work or how to modify them, when i should seek source X to get to sound Y, etc. I need an instructor on synthesis and all the VIs. Its just a digital blur to me. Im not unintelligent, im uneducated.

 

I did learn this in my Yamahas, which I always read here is the worst UI ever conceived, within limits of its hardware and my knowledge. but its just one VI and I took a lot of time as i had no choice.

[Markay]

There was back in MainStage 2 days someone selling Famous Sounds for MainStage patches for about $20 for 30 or so sounds of the 70's and 80's. They were built using the Logic AU's so anyone who had MainStage had the AU's used in the patches.

 

When starting out I found these useful as a hands on tutorial to see how each patch was built, which AU and effect was used, what settings were used in the AU to get that sound, and how they were layered or split. Plus there are lots of online tutorials, free and paid covering every aspect of MainStage and each of the Logic AU's.

[SteveQB]

Im a best of both worlds guy. I use MainStage for programme changes, splits, some sounds and playback. I also like the hands on nature of the Nords. As I am still learning programming I prefer hardware knobs. I have redundancy both ways.

 

However if i was using rented back line or doing fly in gigs would go fully MainStage. I used Cantabile on Pc for a number of years and Mainsatge is like most apple products. It just works

[Tusker]

Im a best of both worlds guy. I use MainStage for programme changes, splits, some sounds and playback.

 

So are you managing your setlists in Mainstage?

 

I'm currently building out a 33 song setlist, for which I am very thankful to have Mainstage on eight songs. (JD800 samples, CR78 drum loops, some Kontakt horns, some VA) Wondering whether I should allow Mainstage to step through the setlist, even when it's not needed for most of the songs ...

 

That uncertainty aside, I echo the sentiment that Mainstage makes life easy, even when it's not shouldering the entire burden.

[David R]

Having a setlist in Mainstage really helps, if only to keep myself organized.

 

On my gig last night - first time playing with a singer - I left my Nord on Rhodes & piano and had some specialized patches in MainStage for some songs (brass, synth, etc). I have my patches named by song title except for generic things like Wurlitzer or Strings.

 

With my colleague in the function band, we built a setup where either one of us could do the gig alone if need be - we linked my Mainstage file to his Kronos, with the Kronos sending out the patch change messages to Mainstage and running MS essentially as another track in the Kronos combi. Worked a dream.

[Bobby Simons]

So are you managing your setlists in Mainstage?

 

I began do this in a group that I play frequently with and could get the set list in advance. . .

 

I already have the songs saved as sets of patches. I'll drag them into the order for that evening and have buttons on the 61-key controller programed for next/last patch and next/last set. I also have a slider that runs from the very first patch of the concert to the last in case I need to jump to something way down the list. For one band's very complex 'Concert' I also programmed next/last patch switching to the first two keys of my 88. People couldn't even tell how I was making the changes, I didn't really have to look. I ended up using these almost exclusively.

 

So I never have to touch the laptop, can read the next song with a glance. In fact, people on my side of the stage could wander over to easily see what's up next instead of squinting at a set list taped to the floor or the top of their amps.

 

I don't even know if this is the best way to do things, it's more of a system that just grew as my needs arose, and has always worked well for me. Take the time to make your assignments, program your patch changes within each tune (aliases are your friend) - you only need to do this once.

Now all you have to do is play.

[Tusker]

Thank you David and Bobby.

 

And once I plug in my USB cable, SSD, and audio output, a quick double-click on an Automator icon on the desktop loads my entire setup.

 

Automator is a useful app, Rob. Would you mind speaking about just how useful it is to you? For me, it's only a case of turning on automap then umi3 and then mainstage. I don't have a test sequence or anything rigorous. Are there other complexities for you (e.g firing up large libraries after turning on mainstage, turning on the A500's software)?

 

Thanks in advance.

[NewImprov]

Thank you David and Bobby.

 

And once I plug in my USB cable, SSD, and audio output, a quick double-click on an Automator icon on the desktop loads my entire setup.

 

Automator is a useful app, Rob. Would you mind speaking about just how useful it is to you? For me, it's only a case of turning on automap then umi3 and then mainstage. I don't have a test sequence or anything rigorous. Are there other complexities for you (e.g firing up large libraries after turning on mainstage, turning on the A500's software)?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

I'm also interested in how you use Automator. I basically have my setup so that once I make sure the controllers and interface are plugged in and turned on, I launch Mainstage, which I have set to autoload the most recent concert file. All patch changes I can do from my controllers.

[deetee]

I can use controllers on one keyboard to control parameters on another, very handy since my bottom board doesn't have an expression pedal input.

 

Im just getting into Mainstage and love it but I didnt realise it could do this! Im looking at using a Nord Stage 2 and and a Yamaha P35 to control it but the Yamaha doesnt have an expression pedal input. Are you saying theres a way I can configure a Mainstage patch so that the expression pedal plugged into the Nord can control the volume of the sound controlled by the Yamaha (without affecting the sound the Nord is controlling)?

[Reezekeys]

Thank you David and Bobby.

 

And once I plug in my USB cable, SSD, and audio output, a quick double-click on an Automator icon on the desktop loads my entire setup.

 

Automator is a useful app, Rob. Would you mind speaking about just how useful it is to you? For me, it's only a case of turning on automap then umi3 and then mainstage. I don't have a test sequence or anything rigorous. Are there other complexities for you (e.g firing up large libraries after turning on mainstage, turning on the A500's software)?

 

Thanks in advance.

Just saw this post, sorry for the very delayed response! My setup uses two instances of Bidule (the app, not plugin - it works as both). One of them needs to see a specific plist file with configuration info. So without Automator I would need to first copy this plist file to the 2nd Bidule's folder, start the first Bidule, load setup #1, then start the second Bidule app (setup #2 loads automatically due to it being specified in the plist file). With Automator this is all done with two mouse clicks.

 

I imagine that with MainStage, one could double-click the "concert" file (I believe that's what they're called), and MainStage would start and load this file so, probably no need for Automator there. I only need it because I use the two Bidules, each with different layout files to load.

[Markay]

MainStage has an option that you can select to open the same concert when you next open MainStage. So turn on, open MainStage and you are good to go.

[Tusker]

Are you saying theres a way I can configure a Mainstage patch so that the expression pedal plugged into the Nord can control the volume of the sound controlled by the Yamaha (without affecting the sound the Nord is controlling)?

 

Getting the Yamaha to "listen" to the pedal is possible. If you are in a Mainstage patch you can set up an extra channel strip, to carry commands from one external device to another. As long as Mainstage is "seing" the expression pedal in the Nord, it can send it to the Yamaha. You can also use this channel strip to filter and modify notes and controllers in sophisticated ways.

 

https://support.apple.com/kb/PH13578?locale=en_US

 

 

Getting the Nord to not listen to it's pedal is a "Nord problem." The Nord may have a setting for that. Typically you do have the option of turning local off on any instrument and letting Mainstage send what you need back to the Nord, but in my experience, there is a tiny Midi latency for fast paced notes through USB and back to a keyboard. Works well for controllers (MIDI CC, pedals, etc.) which aren't as rapid however. Try turning local off and see if you can live with the round-trip latency. :idk

[AnotherScott]

I can use controllers on one keyboard to control parameters on another, very handy since my bottom board doesn't have an expression pedal input.

 

Im just getting into Mainstage and love it but I didnt realise it could do this! Im looking at using a Nord Stage 2 and and a Yamaha P35 to control it but the Yamaha doesnt have an expression pedal input. Are you saying theres a way I can configure a Mainstage patch so that the expression pedal plugged into the Nord can control the volume of the sound controlled by the Yamaha (without affecting the sound the Nord is controlling)?

That should work, except it's worth noting that N&I was using a soundless controller. If you're using that pedal to also control an internal Nord sound, it's still going to affect that sound. (Unless maybe you use the Nord in its Local Off mode and only access its sounds via Mainstage as well.)

[Tusker]

(Unless maybe you use the Nord in its Local Off mode and only access its sounds via Mainstage as well.)

 

Sounds like an echo in here.

[deetee]

Getting the Yamaha to "listen" to the pedal is possible. If you are in a Mainstage patch you can set up an extra channel strip, to carry commands from one external device to another. As long as Mainstage is "seing" the expression pedal in the Nord, it can send it to the Yamaha. You can also use this channel strip to filter and modify notes and controllers in sophisticated ways.

 

https://support.apple.com/kb/PH13578?locale=en

 

JerryA, AnotherScott, thanks for the advice & the link. Delighted it will work but struggling to put it into practice.

 

Im not using the Nord as a sound source, just a controller so all good on that front. However, I cant seem to get the controllers working right. As a test this is what I set up to try to get the expression pedal controlling the volume of the strings:

 

Yamaha FC7 connected to the Nord

Mainstage Channel 1: Midi input = Yamaha, Sound = Pop strings

 

At this point the expression pedal is controlling the volume of the strings which is exactly what I want but then if want another mainstage channel controlled by the Nord keyboard I add another channel in the mainstage patch:

 

Mainstage Channel 2: Midi input = Nord, Sound = Grand Organ

 

At this point the FC7 stops working for the strings but does work for the organ. Seems fair enough. So I go to the midi input on the organ channel strip and filter out Expression. That stops the FC7 working for the organ but it doesnt start working again for the Yamaha.

 

So Im reading and re-reading the link and set up a new channel strip for External Instrument with Midi Input = Nord and Midi Output = Yamaha (not sure if this is the right way around). This doesnt seem to make a difference so Im pretty sure Im missing a step or two (or three or four!)

 

What am I doing wrong?

 

[Tusker]

You will need a screen controller (set up in the layout page) to represent the FC7. Do you?

 

If so, what are the settings (in the layout page). You should be seeing settings like Midi Port, Channel, MIDI Thru, and Send Values To.

 

Mainstage doesn't care that the FC7 is being sent from the Nord per se. Once it identifies it as a controller and recognizes the midi stream in the layout page ... you can route the FC7's values anywhere.

[deetee]

Ah yep I can see it in layout. Its got these values:

 

Midi port : all

Channel: Channel 1-16

Type: Absolute

Number: 11(Expression)

Midi thru: Automatic

Send Value to: [greyed out None]

 

[deetee]

Ah I think Ive got it working!

 

I hadnt remembered that the pedals in mainstage have their own settings and your last post me realise that. I think I get it now! Ive just gone back to Edit and clicked the FC7 then under the Expression tab>send to all then clicked the Yamaha, its working perfectly. Thanks again for your help, I really appreciate it.

 

I have to say Im blown away by Mainstage. About a year ago I upgraded my MacBook to an iMac and so have had the MacBook sitting doing nothing, I wanted a backup for gigging so got mainstage installed it but am so impressed by it (+ the sounds from Komplete which I already owned) that I think the Nord stage 2 is just going to be a control or backup if required. Part of me thinks its a bit of a waste of the Nord but mainstage/Komplete sounds fantastic!

[Tusker]

Ah I think Ive got it working!

 

Props to you!

 

I've had a similar journey into mainstage where I am beginning to rely on it more and more. If could offer you two tips (my apologies if you already know this)...

 

1) Brian Li's 441K website is a wonderful resource. In particular the article about Kontakt. would be helpful to your adventures with Komplete.

 

2) As you go forward, you may become less focused on getting a midi message to it's intended target and more focused on getting the message only to it's intended target. 441K has a "no unnecessary moving parts philosophy", and a lot of tips on this approach to Mainstage programming. It's helped me to makes problem-solving easier and reduced unintended consequences. It'll make a complex rig more manageable for you.

 

Warmly, Jerry

[deetee]

Thanks for the tips Ill take a look at that. I know Ill need to trim down my CPU and RAM usage wherever possible. Ive just upgraded the RAM but before that I was getting way too many glitches.

[obxa]

Hey David, May I ask which Modartt piano you've found working best for you for tribute band scenario?? I've used Mainstage forever in Worship where the pianos tend to be more murky, or just using it for pads and such.. In one of myother regular gigs ( Keys/MD for the oldies circuit) I've used MS for strings, brass etc- and used my Nord Stage or Yamaha as main piano source. The pianos in P-Teq 4/5 never quite worked for me live.. Since the version 6 update have been thinking of using Groatian or Yamaha models to have all my settings in one patch. That said, I will continue to use a hardware controller that makes sounds as backup.

[EscapeRocks]

I am using the Steinway D as the basis for my piano.

 

In the program, I run flat eq.

I also run the "slow and deep chorus" with/

45% mix

0.03 hz rate

88% depth

 

Small Hall Reverb

-5.9db mix

0.86sec duration

25.92 room size

0.056sec pre delay

0 tone

0db tall/early

+2b gain

0.43 on the new "condition" slider.

 

I then run it thru an IKMultimedia T-Racks S Classic EQ and I roll off the lows a bit, ramp up the kids, and just slightly ramp the highs.

 

I also spent a lot of timing dialing in the velocity curve

 

 

 

[Bobby Simons]

Lately I've been using a blend of Pianteq Blüthner and the UVI Ravenscroft in roughly equal measure.

[EscapeRocks]

I then run it thru an IKMultimedia T-Racks S Classic EQ and I roll off the lows a bit, ramp up the kids, and just slightly ramp the highs.

of course I don't ramp up any kids.... I ramp up the Mids