Have you seen middle eastern guys videoing buildings?

[Calfee Jones]

Very interesting article. Apparently young Arab men have been seen videotaping large buildings and landmarks across the country. Keep your eyes open... http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=95001349

[Anderton]

More scary stuff, just what we needed . Things will indeed get worse before they get better.

[Deathtoallwhoopposeme]

I'm sorry to say this but, this is a time of crisis...CLOSE ALL BORDERS and kick all Middle Eastern/terrorist harboring country nationals out...This is extreme and just for the short term until we get all the safeguards into place....Sorry to have to say this and it does make me sound like a biggot but these people started the War by striking At innocent Americans in our own country..I don't think we should fucking stand for it.

[Steve LeBlanc]

[quote]I'm sorry to say this but, this is a time of crisis...CLOSE ALL BORDERS and kick all Middle Eastern/terrorist harboring country nationals out...This is extreme and just for the short term until we get all the safeguards into place....Sorry to have to say this and it does make me sound like a biggot but these people started the War by striking At innocent Americans in our own country..I don't think we should fucking stand for it.[/quote] WHAT???? My neighbor has been a United States citizen for 30 years...he's a good American...pays his taxes, contributes to the neighborhood...he was born and raised in Iraq..should we kick him out too?

[Tedster]

Not U.S. citizens born in middle eastern countries. But...middle eastern nationals living here...unless they have official business, I would seriously consider sending them home. If the neighbor kid comes over all the time and raids your refrigerator, kicks your dog, and steals your kid's toys, you send him home. And if his kid brother comes over and you're not sure whether he's cool or like his older brother, chances are you send him home, too. This country is our home. We have rights as homeowners. If someone is a naturalized citizen, they have become a fellow homeowner. And every homeowner will call upon professionals to help now and again, invited guests, repair people, etc (diplomats and those on official business)...but I don't see anything wrong with sending uninvited guests home.

[Curve Dominant]

Peggy Noonan is a notoriously whacked-in-the-head right-wing blowhard. I wouldn't be surprised if she made up that story to get publicity for her flagging career as professional chatterbox. sventvkg, aren't you supposed to be on medication or something? Is the DUC a little slow today? E [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

[Philip OKeefe]

[quote] Originally posted by Sventvkg: [b]I'm sorry to say this but, this is a time of crisis...CLOSE ALL BORDERS and kick all Middle Eastern/terrorist harboring country nationals out...This is extreme and just for the short term until we get all the safeguards into place....Sorry to have to say this and it does make me sound like a biggot but these people started the War by striking At innocent Americans in our own country..I don't think we should fucking stand for it. [/b][/quote] [quote] Originally posted by Steve LeBlanc: [b]My neighbor has been a United States citizen for 30 years...he's a good American...pays his taxes, contributes to the neighborhood...he was born and raised in Iraq..should we kick him out too? [/b][/quote] [quote]Originally posted by Tedster: [b]Not U.S. citizens born in middle eastern countries. But...middle eastern nationals living here...unless they have official business, I would seriously consider sending them home. [/b][/quote] Well, this all sounds well and good in theory, but there's a few problems with it. First of all, you know those four guys who were just given life sentences in NY for the embassy bombings? Guess what? One of them was a naturalized US citizen. Convicted in a US court of law as being a terrorist and working for bin Laden. Not to cause a panic or any further hate crimes against Arab-Americans (which I have strongly spoken out against, both on these forums and elsewhere), but one of the first principles of "sleeper agents" is to integrate them into the host society. Make them appear innoculous. Start businesses. Buy homes. Get jobs. Don't stand out. Avoid the appearance of religious zealotry. Lie low and BLEND IN. IOW, it would be DAMN HARD to distingush between honest, America loving Arab expatriots who are here because they want a better life and love what America has to offer and those who have been planted and hidden so that they could be activated at a later time to attack us from within. So what are we supposed to do - toss out everyone of Moslem faith or Arab heritage? Maybe set up camps for them like we did for American citizens of Japaneese ancestry in WWII? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img] What about all of the Asian Moslems? The largest Moslem population in the world isn't even an Arab country. For that matter, contrary to popular belief, neither is Iran. Also, there's quaite a few "white, European looking" Moslems... ever hear of Bosnia and Kosovo? There are better ways folks. The government is on it, but it's NOT an easy task and some people will likely slip through the cracks. That's not a failure of the government or of the intelligence agencies, it's just the nature of the business. If you're going to think of ways to track these people down, you need to think outside the box a bit. Throwing Arab - Americans or even all Arab nationals in the USA on legal visas isn't an option, not only because of the racial concerns, but also because it DOESN'T ELIMINATE all the risk factors... In a free and open society, NOTHING will. Get used to it and go on with your lives. It's either that or to toss out the US Constitution. The terrorists would just LOVE that. Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html pokeefe777@msn.com

[Tedster]

Well, yeah...good points. But, if you point out that there was one naturalized citizen among four terrorists, that means there were three that were not. But, of course, we don't want a repeat of some of our country's darker chapters, be it interment camps or McCarthy-style witch hunts.

[alcohol_]

Timothy McVeigh was a Libertarian. Should we be profiling Libertarians?

[lwilliam]

I knew nothing of the lady who wrote that article, but this shows to me her level of insight: "...As individuals, these men--for they are men, between roughly 17 and 45, which is to say they track in terms of sex and age group American criminals in American jails--are not only "hate filled" and "evil," though they are these things. They are also, obviously, emotionally and intellectually primitive. Their minds, if quick and highly focused, are also limited, stunted. And their young-man's arrogance is both a strength and their potential undoing. (Young male criminals of whatever sort tend to showy arrogance, and it is often their undoing.)" ...geez, I sure didn't know that most criminals are between 17 and 45 - what a brilliant observation (not!). I'd even bet that 98% of them are between 12 and 70. I'm also impressed with her observational skills in deducing that these people are emotionally and intellectually primitive. Maybe the FBI and CIA should hire her for these rather intuitive abilities - NOT! She's a fear-mongering idiot! ------------------ Larry W.

[Tedster]

[quote]Originally posted by Joe Egan: [b]Timothy McVeigh was a Libertarian. Should we be profiling Libertarians?[/b][/quote] Yup. And don't forget about Librarians. That's a dangerous lot. All those hours with their hair tied up in buns...makes 'em cranky.

[SFOracle]

Tedster, that's twice today you have cracked me up and made me spew my coffee (first one was KORN RULEZ). Can you give me a warning next time?

[WFTurner]

The reality is that the INS is so far in the dark ages that they don't have a clue who's in this country. Given that the threat is here now and it's gonna take awhile to get the INS fixed, ethnic profiling (as in non-citizens) may be the only realistic tool we have to find terrorist cells. That's not politically correct I guess, but there's nothing in my copy of the constitution that say's I have to be politically correct or that we owe non-citizens the same rights as citizens. So until they fix the INS, the more non-citizens they sniff out the better I sleep. ------------------ William F. Turner Songwriter [url=http://www.csonline.net/wfturner/index.html]turnermusic[/url]

[Tedster]

[quote]Originally posted by SFOracle: [b]Tedster, that's twice today you have cracked me up and made me spew my coffee (first one was KORN RULEZ). Can you give me a warning next time?[/b][/quote] LOL...thanks, I've gotta say, I'm just trying to be as quick as D. Gauss. Not even close yet...hahaha...

[GuitarMan]

[quote]Originally posted by WFTurner: [b]The reality is that the INS is so far in the dark ages that they don't have a clue who's in this country. Given that the threat is here now and it's gonna take awhile to get the INS fixed, ethnic profiling (as in non-citizens) may be the only realistic tool we have to find terrorist cells. That's not politically correct I guess, but there's nothing in my copy of the constitution that say's I have to be politically correct or that we owe non-citizens the same rights as citizens. So until they fix the INS, the more non-citizens they sniff out the better I sleep. [/b][/quote] You're damn skippy! and thanks! lets get real here. It might go something like this: Dear, Mr/Mrs, Legal/Illegal, alien... we're sorry but we're unable to serve you at this time due to technical difficulties. We're currently only able to attend to the needs of citizens of our country. Please feel free to check back with us periodically as we hopefully look forward to serving you again in the future. We are sorry for any inconvenience this this may cause. The Management.(Over 37 Bazillion Served) This message has been edited by GuitarMan on 10-19-2001 at 11:02 PM

[Deathtoallwhoopposeme]

Ok....I guess we need to sit here and accept that we are going to be continually attacked by Foreign "sleeper" Agents of terrorist organizations just because it's not "Right" to deport people here on Visas, or overhaul the entire INS system.....Well, Sorry, but again, this is a time of crisis and the regular rules do not apply...Fuck them...they have to deal with it right now and accept things as they are. Innocent people will be incoveinenced and offended but they need to see why that is happening and understand where it is coming from.....When things die down let them back in in conjunction with new rules, safegards and and background checks on people from suspected terrorist nations....So you say there are better ways to deal....What are they? Please expound upon that a bit....Talk about Throwing the constitution out the window-Well, if we allow this terrorist activity to keep happening and to get worse in OUR OWN country, then what fucking good is the constitution at the point when our freedoms are held hostage to terrorists. Crist, that's what they want and they are counting on us to nothing about it under the guise of "The Land of the Free" etc etc etc.DRASTIC HARSH and SERIOUS measures are called for to preserve our freedom...If you do not have the stomach for it, I suggest you move. By the Way, this is all from a card carrying Democrat and former US Army Ranger....Good to see the boys over there now..I can guess pretty well what they are doing since I was there 90-91 doing some fun things as well!!! I Care NOTHING for non-US citezens' rights in my country by the way...I Just want to live in a country Safe from terrorism and ANY way that is accomplished without trampling on the rights of Americans, is fine with me! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Curve, the only medication i'm supposed to be on is for my Cholesterol... This message has been edited by sventvkg on 10-20-2001 at 12:37 AM

[Tusker]

As to Peggy Noonan's cab driver: [b]"Yeah, I am. I been feeling funny since a thing I saw the other day. I'm standing with a bunch of limos and drivers, we're waiting outside that big building, 520 Madison. And suddenly--we're all hanging around talking--and suddenly we see these two guys, Mideastern guys, in turbans." [/b] Then they were likely Sikhs (not moslems) who's religion prohibits them from (literally) letting their hair down. They were probably from India, possibly Pakistan, possibly even Singapore. Not the middle east. If they were terrorists of Mohammad Atta's type, believe me they would have lost the turbans and any facial hair. Secondly, let's look at the culpability of Peggy's fellows. Peggy noticed that her guys didn't smile at her when they noticed her. She doesn't say if she smiled at them. Twice she mentions that she stared at them, then she says she eyeballed them hard. How would you react if you got stared down? Everybody's jumpy. Jerry This message has been edited by Tusker on 10-20-2001 at 04:19 AM

[Tedster]

Besides, someone pointed out that one of the Embassy bombers was in fact a naturalized US citizen. Okay...well, picture this scenario: Four terrorists get together and plan for a nice day's destruction. One is a US citizen. All of a sudden the other three are deported. Okay, Sven, (and I'm agreeing with you) tell me, if you and three other Rangers were planning a mission, a mission that required four people, and three became unavailable, would that not weaken your ability to complete the mission? I'm thinking that quite possibly the same would happen with the terrorists. Rid them of their support system, hack away at their roots, and they'll start to crumble. If you're a homeowner having a party, and some obnoxious guests come, you ask them to leave. If you're not quite sure who the troublemakers are, you ask everyone to leave.

[Deathtoallwhoopposeme]

[quote]Originally posted by Tedster: [b]Besides, someone pointed out that one of the Embassy bombers was in fact a naturalized US citizen. Okay...well, picture this scenario: Four terrorists get together and plan for a nice day's destruction. One is a US citizen. All of a sudden the other three are deported. Okay, Sven, (and I'm agreeing with you) tell me, if you and three other Rangers were planning a mission, a mission that required four people, and three became unavailable, would that not weaken your ability to complete the mission? I'm thinking that quite possibly the same would happen with the terrorists. Rid them of their support system, hack away at their roots, and they'll start to crumble. If you're a homeowner having a party, and some obnoxious guests come, you ask them to leave. If you're not quite sure who the troublemakers are, you ask everyone to leave. [/b][/quote] Exactly My point..If we can get rid of a decent ratio of them by tightening restrictions for a while that could potentially foil many Plans... In the Army a Fire Team within a Squad was 3-5 Guys so if we lost 3 guys in a 5 man Fire Team that would pretty much limit our capabilities..however, we could always attatch on to the other Fire team in the squad or assemble another squad out of the remnants of the broken Fire Teams...Point is, it is tougher if you loose essential elements and That's all you and I are trying to say..."Rangers Lead the Way" hooah!!!!!

[Tedster]

Yes, and if you had several fire teams of 5 guys, and each lost three...that would curtail your ability to function. How much would depend of course on overall losses. But, substitute "fire team" for "terrorist cell". It seems to me it would work the same. We've got to start somewhere. I'm not talking about sending these people to interment camps or anything, just sending them home to their own country. Rooting them out of our infrastructure. Unfortunately, you're gonna lose some nice guests at the party along with the dickweeds...maybe even a majority of nice guests, but, if you don't know who they are, don't even try to single 'em out. Like I said, we're the homeowner here, and we have certain rights as such. Remember back in grade school when one kid was screwing around and the whole class got punished? The goal was to put peer pressure on the screwup kid.

[Woodgrain]

I just have a thought from what someone mentioned above. "Middle Eastern" people move to the States to start a better life. There is a large amount of immegration from that side of the world to the U.S. There are a lot of Middle Eastern people in the world. In Iraq, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia etc...people are fighting because their beliefs are different from each other and they feel that their own belief in the "TRUE ONE" and thats it, if you are not what they belive then they will kill you. So they move here. We dont prosecute them for what they belive nor will we kill them in Wrigly Stadium. Just try go to that side of the world and practice US beleifs. BOOM...goodbye. So...they move here...and kill themselves off back home. Then there is a whole world with no one there, they all moved to the States. Now who's to say it wont happen here. There are so many Middle Eastern people in the world, their culture and people have been around for so long. With that amount of back up they should unite, come together and start a democracy and live without fear. Then they could live in their place of birth/origin. Where for centuries the people there grew and delveloped. They are midlle Eastern people because thats where they are from. Instead of letting a small amount of crazy people with guns control the country. Then they will come live in the States and be Americans with an Afgani history, and theirchildren will never have been to the homeland. So how can they be "Middle Eastern" if they only hear of home. They will be Americans if they are born on American Soil. I feel that if it is so bad in the Middle East, because of what 'people' are doing there, why dont 'people' fucking change it. Instead of leaving garbage and moving to a new area. There are so many people there that if they all come together and did something as a team they will change things.

[Curve Dominant]

I was working out in the park yesterday, doing some chin-ups on the chin-up bars and some dips on the parallel bars, when I noticed a suspicious-looking middle-eastern woman videotaping me. I eyeballed her really hard, and she eyeballed me back hard, and this went on for a minute or two. I went back to working out, but continued to monitor her movements out of the corner of my eye, simultaneously looking out for a policeman, and she resumed videotaping me. Finally, fearing for national security and the safety of the free world, I suddenly charged over to her, and demanded an explaination. She told me that she was scouting for actors for a porn movie, and asked if I was interested in a starring role I politely explained to her that my religious beliefs would prevent me from being photographed in a sexual act, but I would be happy to score the soundtrack music. So, to make a semi-long story semi-short: if any of you ever rent a porn flick entitled "Debbie Does Dubai," and you think that the wah-guitar laced music sounds suspiciously like The Curve's, it is not your imagination, so DO NOT call the FBI. Just grab a towel and some hand lotion, and enjoy. E [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

[whosmatt]

that's not funny. oh, wait a minute. yes it is. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] [quote]Originally posted by Curve Dominant: [b]I was working out in the park yesterday, doing some chin-ups on the chin-up bars and some dips on the parallel bars, when I noticed a suspicious-looking middle-eastern woman videotaping me. I eyeballed her really hard, and she eyeballed me back hard, and this went on for a minute or two. I went back to working out, but continued to monitor her movements out of the corner of my eye, simultaneously looking out for a policeman, and she resumed videotaping me. Finally, fearing for national security and the safety of the free world, I suddenly charged over to her, and demanded an explaination. She told me that she was scouting for actors for a porn movie, and asked if I was interested in a starring role I politely explained to her that my religious beliefs would prevent me from being photographed in a sexual act, but I would be happy to score the soundtrack music. So, to make a semi-long story semi-short: if any of you ever rent a porn flick entitled "Debbie Does Dubai," and you think that the wah-guitar laced music sounds suspiciously like The Curve's, it is not your imagination, so DO NOT call the FBI. Just grab a towel and some hand lotion, and enjoy. E [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img][/b][/quote]

[remo]

Kill thy neighbour. Live in peace.

[dansouth]

[quote]Originally posted by Tedster: [b]Well, yeah...good points. But, if you point out that there was one naturalized citizen among four terrorists, that means there were three that were not.[/b][/quote] These guys blew up embassies in Africa. What good would it have done to kick them out of the United States? Don't forget to kick out all of the Irish people who have contributed to the IRA.

[dansouth]

[quote]Originally posted by Woodgrain: [b]I just have a thought from what someone mentioned above. "Middle Eastern" people move to the States to start a better life. There is a large amount of immegration from that side of the world to the U.S. There are a lot of Middle Eastern people in the world. In Iraq, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia etc...people are fighting because their beliefs are different from each other and they feel that their own belief in the "TRUE ONE" and thats it, if you are not what they belive then they will kill you. So they move here. We dont prosecute them for what they belive nor will we kill them in Wrigly Stadium. Just try go to that side of the world and practice US beleifs. BOOM...goodbye. So...they move here...and kill themselves off back home. Then there is a whole world with no one there, they all moved to the States. Now who's to say it wont happen here. There are so many Middle Eastern people in the world, their culture and people have been around for so long. With that amount of back up they should unite, come together and start a democracy and live without fear. Then they could live in their place of birth/origin. Where for centuries the people there grew and delveloped. They are midlle Eastern people because thats where they are from. Instead of letting a small amount of crazy people with guns control the country. Then they will come live in the States and be Americans with an Afgani history, and theirchildren will never have been to the homeland. So how can they be "Middle Eastern" if they only hear of home. They will be Americans if they are born on American Soil. I feel that if it is so bad in the Middle East, because of what 'people' are doing there, why dont 'people' fucking change it. Instead of leaving garbage and moving to a new area. There are so many people there that if they all come together and did something as a team they will change things.[/b][/quote] You don't know a lot of Middle Eastern people, do you? No matter. Most people everywhere just want to prosper and have safe stable lives and opportunities for their children. Most immigrants to the United States, Canada, France, England, Germany and other "first world" countries want this. Many times they have to leave their native countries because of horrible conditions: drought, famine, economic collapse, ruthless governments, civil war, enthnic violence, etc. They come to the United States, because this is a country where many of those problems have been minimized. Not erradicated, but minimized to the point where they and their children have a much better chance at a good life. That's what most immigrants want. That's what my ancestors wanted, and yours, too. That's what most Middle Eastern immigrants want. They come here and they work hard. Some of them do dangerous, menial jobs that no one else wants (taxi drivers, etc.) Some of them work in medicine, universities, and high tech, where the labor shortage is almost always a problem. Others start businesses, often in rough neighborhoods that we "Americans" have abandoned. In the midst of a lot of hard working people who never bothered anybody are a few killers who want to do harm to large numbers of people. But think about it. Aren't there American born people who hurt people? Drug dealers? Gangsters? Ruthless criminals? People who just get mad one day and shoot a bunch of people? You have more chance of being killed by an irate or desperate American than you do by a foreigner. People from other lands may seem mysterious and frightening if you don't know them, but I assure you that the vast majority are not here to do anyone any harm. Some people want them all to just go away, but that's stupid. The criminals can just sneak across the border and hide out. Kicking out the honest people isn't going to slow down the dishonest ones. Think about it.

[dansouth]

[quote]Originally posted by sventvkg: [b]I'm sorry to say this but, this is a time of crisis...CLOSE ALL BORDERS and kick all Middle Eastern/terrorist harboring country nationals out...This is extreme and just for the short term until we get all the safeguards into place....Sorry to have to say this and it does make me sound like a biggot but these people started the War by striking At innocent Americans in our own country..I don't think we should fucking stand for it.[/b][/quote] Great idea! Let's round up Casey Kasem, Omar Sharif, Shakira, and Andre Agassi and put them on a slow boat back to anywhere but here. Then America will be SAFE!! Boy, I'm sure glad I read this thread. Now I know the solution to all these bothersome terrorism issues. Actually, if I had only paid attention during history class, I would have remembered this solution is not new at all. There was an amazingly strong and productive society a few decades back that was unified under the guidance a charismatic leader who convinced everyone there that all of their problems were caused by scheming strangers who had infiltrated their otherwise perfect society. Those strangers were called Jews, and the leader's name was Adolph Hitler. Yes, history is a wonderful reference, isn't it? This message has been edited by dansouth@yahoo.com on 10-22-2001 at 06:16 AM

[Tedster]

[quote]Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com: [b] These guys blew up embassies in Africa. What good would it have done to kick them out of the United States? Don't forget to kick out all of the Irish people who have contributed to the IRA.[/b][/quote] During WWII the Nazis embarked on an espionage campaign against the U.S. by going to German/American communities and recruiting sympathizers. They gained quite a bit of valuable intelligence by doing so. Yes, it would do no good if they're blowing up embassies in Africa, but, we're talking about reducing their strength on our home turf. This is war. I'm not talking of sending U.S. citizens back to the country of their ancestry. I'm talking about non-U.S. citizens, as a means to weaken their U.S. based root system.

[Deathtoallwhoopposeme]

[quote]Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com: [b] Great idea! Let's round up Casey Kasem, Omar Sharif, Shakira, and Andre Agassi and put them on a slow boat back to anywhere but here. Then America will be SAFE!! Boy, I'm sure glad I read this thread. Now I know the solution to all these bothersome terrorism issues. Actually, if I had only paid attention during history class, I would have remembered this solution is not new at all. There was an amazingly strong and productive society a few decades back that was unified under the guidance a charismatic leader who convinced everyone there that all of their problems were caused by scheming strangers who had infiltrated their otherwise perfect society. Those strangers were called Jews, and the leader's name was Adolph Hitler. Yes, history is a wonderful reference, isn't it? This message has been edited by dansouth@yahoo.com on 10-22-2001 at 06:16 AM [/b][/quote] No Dan....NO one is saying kick out Americans of Middle Eastern Heritage...VISITING foreigners ONLY..JUST FOR THE TIME BEING...People on Visas....Calm down...We're not taking relocation camps like we did to the japanese in WWII...Just a safeguard until we get better security measures into place..Send the Visitors home until we can thorougly check them out...Just a PRECAUTION that could thwart some planned activity here....

[Tusker]

[quote]Originally posted by sventvkg: [b] No Dan....NO one is saying kick out Americans of Middle Eastern Heritage...VISITING foreigners ONLY..JUST FOR THE TIME BEING...People on Visas.... [/b][/quote] Oh, you want to single out Andre Agassi's (hypothetical) mother who is coming for her transplant, right? [quote]Originally posted by sventvkg: [b] Send the Visitors home until we can thorougly check them out...Just a PRECAUTION that could thwart some planned activity here.... [/b][/quote] How will you check them out, if you prevent them from going about their deadly business? Could, thwart planned activity....? Dunno, I think all it will give us is false confidence. These guys have good fake passports. Jerry ------------------ [url=http://www.tuskerfort.com]www.tuskerfort.com[/url]